When does a woman owe you sex chart

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Yuzu
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25 Jul 2014, 9:24 pm

1024 wrote:
Yuzu wrote:
According to this article In Norway, Gender Equality Does Not Extend to the Bedroom, Norway is still one of 12 members of the European Union that do not explicitly criminalize rape within marriage,
That's surprising for a Scandinavian country.

If I understand correctly, this doesn't mean that rape in marriage is not a crime. It means that there is no explicit provision that marital rape is a crime; but there is no exception either that would say it's not crime. According to Wikipedia it's a crime in all of Europe.

Btw marital rape not being a crime is not necessarily gender unequality, at least in theory. In the laws of some religions, including Judaism and Christianity, both spouses owe sex to each other. (I don't give any importance to religious law, I just cited it as a curiosity.)


Yeah it is rather confusing. Norway is listed as one of the countries as where marital rape is illegal on Wiki and also they have removed exemptions for husbands from rape legislation. And I highly doubt that their marital laws actually state that married couples are entitled to sex from their spouses in Norway.



TheGoggles
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25 Jul 2014, 11:46 pm

Cafeaulait wrote:
TheGoggles wrote:
Cafeaulait wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ig6mB6GYI5c

2:00: LMFAO

I used to think all guys with an ASS were like that. How wrong was I.


That lady is super lucky she made that mistake in a country that doesn't set buses on fire when they WIN a football game.


LOL!

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That poor guy. He looks totally fine, but his tourette's defines every aspect of his life. I can't imagine how much that must suck.



Ann2011
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26 Jul 2014, 7:46 am

AngelRho wrote:
But I really believe that the best marriage relationships dispense with terms of "mine" and "yours" in favor of "ours." If one person has an issue in the relationship, then we both have an issue in the relationship. That can, and often does, include intimacy. Either partner can have an apathetic attitude towards sex at any time, as in "I don't really want to have sex right now, but I'll do it if he/she really wants it that bad."


This is pretty much how things are with my guyfriend. On both sides. I don't like the term "withholding" either as it implies that you are keeping something from someone it belongs to. But I get what you're saying - in a committed relationship there is an implied agreement to look after each other sexually.



NobodyKnows
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26 Jul 2014, 8:00 pm

Marcia wrote:
1024 wrote:
Nobody legally owes you sex, but it is more or less implied in marriage, the same way as monogamy is implied.
?..


And they should serve as a warning to every woman who is considering tying her life to a man with whom she may easily not be interested in sex a few years later.


And that is why for centuries men had the right to have sex with their wife, even if she refused, because she was deemed to have given her consent, once and for all, when they got married.

I am a 46 year old woman, living in Scotland, and I was old enough to be married when the law here eventually acknowledged that for a husband to have non-consensual sex with his wife was actually rape. Before that, it was technically impossible for a woman to be raped by her husband.


It would have been more honest if you had added some historical context: Up until the postwar period, children were the only Social Security (pension system) that most people in the developed world had. Most men worked too many hours to have much time for recreational sex. Even my grandfather - a wealthy person in one of the world's wealthiest countries - left for work before sunrise, came home for dinner, and then went back to work until late at night. He did that six days a week, and had to go to work briefly on Sundays, too. He didn't have time for much sex.

When the circomstances changed, so did the laws (as you acknowledge).

The idea that the developed world was swarming with privileged men who used their wives as recreational sex slaves is convenient for some politicians, but historically dishonest.

Furthermore, sex (and childbearing) were as necessary then as a five-day work week is today. Most women that I meet still see unnecessary work as my duty. That's a real sense of entitlement. I could be working three days a week or less and living much better.



NobodyKnows
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26 Jul 2014, 8:16 pm

tarantella64 wrote:
- my mind
- my time
- my money
- my talents
- my work.


Amen to that. So you will surely understand when we ask you to pay for your own excessive health care consuption with appropriately higher premiums.



tarantella64
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26 Jul 2014, 9:36 pm

@Angelrho - That sounds wonderful, sounds like you have a great marriage. And I think that thing you say about being friends is right on. (Though I'm not sure what you mean by losing the kids.)

It really is a tough row as a musician -- which is all the more reason to be on top of how the money works, for sure. It's long seemed to me that there are two kinds of middle-aged artists: those with trust funds/wealthy spouses, and those who take care of the money. Because the ones who aren't rich and are dreamy about finances just don't survive till middle age as artists, can't afford to. That's part of why I'm so firm about my own money/property.



tarantella64
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26 Jul 2014, 9:38 pm

NobodyKnows wrote:
tarantella64 wrote:
- my mind
- my time
- my money
- my talents
- my work.


Amen to that. So you will surely understand when we ask you to pay for your own excessive health care consuption with appropriately higher premiums.


As it happens, I use considerably less healthcare than most adults, even those a decade younger than I am. However, I was talking about the context of a romantic relationship, not a social contract. In terms of a social contract, I am perfectly happy to pay higher taxes for national health, also to do without the end-of-life heroics we do so expensively here.



tarantella64
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26 Jul 2014, 9:40 pm

NobodyKnows wrote:
Marcia wrote:
1024 wrote:
Nobody legally owes you sex, but it is more or less implied in marriage, the same way as monogamy is implied.
?..


And they should serve as a warning to every woman who is considering tying her life to a man with whom she may easily not be interested in sex a few years later.


And that is why for centuries men had the right to have sex with their wife, even if she refused, because she was deemed to have given her consent, once and for all, when they got married.

I am a 46 year old woman, living in Scotland, and I was old enough to be married when the law here eventually acknowledged that for a husband to have non-consensual sex with his wife was actually rape. Before that, it was technically impossible for a woman to be raped by her husband.


It would have been more honest if you had added some historical context: Up until the postwar period, children were the only Social Security (pension system) that most people in the developed world had. Most men worked too many hours to have much time for recreational sex. Even my grandfather - a wealthy person in one of the world's wealthiest countries - left for work before sunrise, came home for dinner, and then went back to work until late at night. He did that six days a week, and had to go to work briefly on Sundays, too. He didn't have time for much sex.


I think your forebears would have a hearty & dirty laugh about that. Big ol' antique hur.

As for the rest: jesus, you're not on about that again, are you? Didn't we already have those conversations?



BuyerBeware
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26 Jul 2014, 11:29 pm

You know, when I was still a little girl with a flat chest, my daddy taught me that some guys would have this attitude. "I took you out, so you owe me." My daddy taught me that I NEVER owed anyone sex. EVER.

My daddy also taught me that it was less trouble to buy my own dinner than to go through this rigmarole with a guy, and that it was safer to get my own drinks than end up having someone slip me a roofie.

My daddy was a really smart guy.

I ALWAYS bought my own meals, paid for half the pool games, and purchased my own tickets. I would have gotten my own drinks, but I learned real quick that I was better off not to drink in restaurants and bars, or around strangers.

I remember the first time Hubby and I went out. He was 18; I was 20. We were both in college, but he was significantly more broke than I was. To the best of my knowledge, it wasn't even an official date. We were meeting at a restaurant for dinner as friends.

I paid for my own dinner.

This upset him, actually rather a lot.

Fast-forward sixteen years.

I teach my son that a woman absolutely does not, cannot, will not, and should not "owe" him sex for ANYTHING, EVER. I teach my daughters that they do not, cannot, will not, and should not "owe" anyone sex for ANYTHING, EVER. I also teach my son to expect a woman to buy her own dinner unless arranged beforehand; I teach my daughters to buy their own dinner and get their own drinks.

Because my father was a smart man.

My father was also an idealist.

I've been told by guys that I "owe" them sex because I had sex with the last guy I dated (never mind that I'd known him for two years previously, while I had known Mr. Bookkeeper for two months and had yet to so much as meet his mother).

I've been told by guys that I "owe" them sex because they gave me a cigarette. No kidding. I have learned to be suspicious of generous men.

I have also learned that, while sex may not be owed in a marriage, it sure greases the skids toward keeping said marriage sweet. If I don't feel like it?? Smile, act enthusiastic, and remember that it only takes about 10 minutes and I'll feel good about myself for having done it. If I'm angry?? Put it aside, smile, act enthusiastic, and remember that it only takes about 10 minutes and causes the release of happy hormones that will take the edge off my anger. If I'm tired and busy?? Smile, act enthusiastic, and remember that it only takes 10 minutes, and it's autistic to be so focused on how I feel and what I want to accomplish that I do not tend to my husband's needs before my own.

I teach my son that sex cannot be owed. I teach my daughters the same thing-- but I also teach them that, once married, no matter how much you don't want to, it's best if, at least twice a week, you lie back and try to look like you're not thinking of England. Not because I want them to be submissive doormats, but because, if they choose marriage, I want them to go into it clear-eyed, not wearing idealistic blinders.

I think the fact that I do not have the right to control of my own body, time, and resources has more to do with autism than it does with womanhood. It is just one more way in which I am slightly less a person than an NT female would be. It bothers me, but it is best accepted and not agonized over. Raging about the unfairness of it, after all, means I'm acting autistic again (but only, I note, if I complain about something being disrespectful or unfair to me).


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NobodyKnows
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26 Jul 2014, 11:30 pm

tarantella64 wrote:
I think your forebears would have a hearty & dirty laugh about that. Big ol' antique hur.

As for the rest: jesus, you're not on about that again, are you? Didn't we already have those conversations?


(a) I've had a lot of very old friends. Even if you were twice my age, it's unlikely that you'd have a better grasp of what they went through than I do.

(b) My post was no more repetative than your earlier ones.

tarantella64 wrote:
I was talking about the context of a romantic relationship, not a social contract. In terms of a social contract, I am perfectly happy to pay higher taxes for national health


Of course you're OK with it. It serves your self-interest. Your position on end-of-life care would only put you on par with a large fraction of men, and wouldn't change the overall numbers.

You seem to see the work of other people as some sort of commodity that comes out of a faucet, while thinking of your contribution is magical and special.



tarantella64
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27 Jul 2014, 1:02 am

@BuyerBeware: Your post makes me really sad.

I try not to take some of the posts here as being representative of every guy's attitude, because I don't think I'd ever date again if I believed that every guy genuinely believed that it was my job to give him sex, whether or not I actually wanted to have sex with him, in order to keep him happy. I don't know why I would agree to an arrangement like that -- after all, I've got a pretty nice life as is, so I don't know why I'd put myself through that. It hadn't occurred to me that "I'm a grownup; you be one too" was really thaaaaat big a thing to ask.

And it just flat-out wouldn't occur to me to bug a guy who didn't feel sexy, or like he wanted sex specifically with me, just because I'm horny. It seems to me an attitude like that's pretty much a recipe for making him feel awful, too, if he actually wanted to but couldn't, and preferred to pass altogether, just wanted to cuddle with no pressure. Sure, he could get me off other ways, but...so can I.

I've been thinking about this over the last few days, actually, because of how surprised I was at the strength of my reaction to the idea of a guy having sex with me just to please me. Without desire. It's a pretty awful thing to imagine -- to me, it feels dirty, and not a good dirty, either. It's as bad as a guy hanging around for form's sake, not because he actually wants to be with me or enjoys my company. Sex as a favor, without desire, or, worse, as a way of placating me somehow...no, man, no. The whole point of sex with someone else is desire, yours *and* theirs, that's why it's hot. Yeah, that's me, and I'm not meaning to judge your arrangement, BB, but...mm, no, I really don't get wanting your spouse to just do it for you because you want it, even if they don't particularly.

Maybe I should consider hanging onto my house, after my daughter flies, so that she knows she has choices, even if she's got kids. I don't expect she'll need the help -- she'll probably make a hell of a lot more than I do, and she's a tough customer -- but maybe even so.

@NK: hey, enjoy your ragebox. I've got too much to do to engage with nasty/misogynistic convo, esp. if it's going to get conveniently amnesiac like this.



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27 Jul 2014, 2:49 am

Why do topics like this and "nice guys" garner more replies on here than actual relationship advice?


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AngelRho
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27 Jul 2014, 5:59 am

tarantella64 wrote:
@BuyerBeware: Your post makes me really sad.

I try not to take some of the posts here as being representative of every guy's attitude, because I don't think I'd ever date again if I believed that every guy genuinely believed that it was my job to give him sex, whether or not I actually wanted to have sex with him, in order to keep him happy. I don't know why I would agree to an arrangement like that -- after all, I've got a pretty nice life as is, so I don't know why I'd put myself through that. It hadn't occurred to me that "I'm a grownup; you be one too" was really thaaaaat big a thing to ask.

And it just flat-out wouldn't occur to me to bug a guy who didn't feel sexy, or like he wanted sex specifically with me, just because I'm horny. It seems to me an attitude like that's pretty much a recipe for making him feel awful, too, if he actually wanted to but couldn't, and preferred to pass altogether, just wanted to cuddle with no pressure. Sure, he could get me off other ways, but...so can I.

I've been thinking about this over the last few days, actually, because of how surprised I was at the strength of my reaction to the idea of a guy having sex with me just to please me. Without desire. It's a pretty awful thing to imagine -- to me, it feels dirty, and not a good dirty, either.

If Buyer and I were both single and looking, it sounds like we'd be waaaaay compatible.

What you said here pretty much sums up why I don't like having sex with a woman who's just doing it for me and isn't getting anything out of it or doesn't want to. That whole dirty feeling, like something's missing. My wife doesn't care--she's happy if she makes me happy. But I'm the same way. If I'm unable to climax, I'm tired, or otherwise just not into it, I take a lot of joy in making her feel good.

I'm pretty sure I've technically been raped by her on a couple of occasions when she wanted sex because she was angry and just wanted to let off some steam. But, y'know? I'm perfectly ok with that. I'm ok with being a sex toy if that's what she needs because her needs are more important to me than my own. She would do the same for me, and I know all I have to do is just ask. But when I did that before, I just felt, I dunno, weird afterwards. And I think she's kinda the same way about it.

I think we get more pleasure pleasing each other than we do pleasing ourselves, which is why we don't mind getting used if that ever happens. It just feels weird to be the one using, which is why it's rare that we do that.

My wife tells me that most of the time she's not in the mood and that half the fun is what I do to turn that around. She also lets me know if it's not going to work and when I should stop. I gain nothing if I don't try. ;) After 9 years of marriage and 3 kids later, I still find her desirable. So even if it annoys her sometimes, I hope it makes her feel good to know she still got it!

But if she ever wanted sex and I didn't at the moment, I'd highly encourage her to bug me about it.



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27 Jul 2014, 6:30 am

Tim_Tex wrote:
Why do topics like this and "nice guys" garner more replies on here than actual relationship advice?

Relationships are about giving and receiving,not owing,that's a debt.


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27 Jul 2014, 6:48 am

TheGoggles wrote:
Cafeaulait wrote:
TheGoggles wrote:
Cafeaulait wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ig6mB6GYI5c

2:00: LMFAO

I used to think all guys with an ASS were like that. How wrong was I.


That lady is super lucky she made that mistake in a country that doesn't set buses on fire when they WIN a football game.


LOL!

CRUNCHYTITS


That poor guy. He looks totally fine, but his tourette's defines every aspect of his life. I can't imagine how much that must suck.


True. I am very happy for him that he found love and is now engaged.