The Aspie - Borderline Couple

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I once worked with someone with BPD and it was not a fun experience. I found this person to be very perplexing. They exhibited unpredictable mood swings and took any problem I alerted them to as a personal criticism. While it's not unusual for others to become upset with someone with HFA/AS due to misunderstandings or missed social cues, I had made an effort in this case to be particularly mindful of my interactions with this person, to the extent that I became fairly confident that it was not I who was out of line.

This individual eventually made some potentially damaging accusations against me, however, as this person's behavior struck me as erratic after our first few interactions, and after much thought, I concluded they either had some type of substance abuse problem, or psychiatric issue, I began documenting our interactions early on, and was able to use these records to refute (to this person's own satisfaction, and the satisfaction of others involved) the accusations against me.

It was during the resolution of this issue that I began to learn about BPD and, while I found the perspectives of those with this disorder, very alien to me, I was able to comprehend what drives their seemingly illogical behavior such that I was able to find a way to continue to work with this individual for the remainder of the duration of work relationship.

Apparently, those with BPD experience unusually strong emotions, even in the face of everyday circumstances. This is foreign to me. While I'm not devoid of emotions, in most situations, my initial internal response to daily interactions is not an emotive one, but analytic one. I put a lot of effort into trying to determine what a person is trying to communicate to me, and that alone does not leave much room for "knee jerk" emotional responses. After all, how can one become emotional if one does not know what to be emotional about?

While this person did eventually manage to upset me, (ironically what upset me the most was this person's seeming lack of logic and ability to reason), I believe my consistent personality, and the consistency in which I dealt with this person despite their own behavior, contributed positively to managing the situation.

Our work relationship ended on a positive note, but I hope to never have to work with someone with such disruptive issues in the future.

That being said, I'm very glad I do not have BPD. I'm also glad I'm not an empath. They both seem very draining. I do not envision a romantic relationship between me and someone with BPD working out. I prefer calm relationships and I would rather be alone than in a turbulent relationship.

I am not understanding. How are you able to not react with negative emotion when other people people are negative or don't make sense? I would love to understand and be able to do this and my expectation of logic gets in the way when people surprise, shock me so I get quite upset.

If something evokes negative emotions in you then you have evaluated the situation and made a negative conclusion about it. In most people, internal emotional responses are quick and subconscious. For example, if they are walking down the street, and a neighbor flips them off, their brain will receive the incoming visual signal, analyze it, conclude a hostile gesture is being made, and evoke negative emotions, and this all happens in a fraction of a second.

But imagine now that same person is in a foreign country, who's culture they are entirely unfamiliar with, and they are walking down the street, and someone makes a hand gesture the person has never seen. In this case, the brain receives the incoming visual signal, and during analysis, can't immediately identify it with the more primitive neural system, so passes it to the frontal lobes for further analysis, but in this instance, the frontal lobe might only be able to offer suggestions as to what the signal might mean. In this case, the only internal emotional response would be confusion, curiosity, annoyance, or some combination there of. This is how many people with processing issues experience the world.

Even when something does evoke negative emotions in you though, (depending on the integrity of certain neural connections within the frontal lobe) you are not required to let those emotions dictate your actions, and for the most part, I don't. I acknowledge my emotions, I choose my actions. I also consider that option I might have initially misinterpreted a situation that has upset me.

People with BPD, on the other hand, tend to have emotions that exceed the ability of their frontal lobe to override them, and they tend to take their initial emotional responses at face value. This is why they tend to be impulsive. And that they tend to believe their emotions so strongly is also why it is called "borderline" personality disorder. "Borderline" refers to borderline psychosis, because they occasionally build upon their negative perceptions until they have come to believe something baseless and delusional.

Thank you Chronos. That kind of makes more sense.

I guess I probably look BPD at times because, lacking an intuitive understanding of when I'm being mad fun of, or bullied, or in danger, that feeling of confusion is my warning and I use it as a prompt to look for what's wrong to try to get away, but this does mean being scared a lot.

It confuses me, some of us here have very good warning systems in our minds when something is portentially dangerous, figuratively or literally, others like me have to play catch up and guess afterwards, and it seems completely uncorrelated to much including overall functioning. Has anyone sorted out what makes for the difference? It makes me very anxious to look around for what could be scary whenever I get confused by people (which is often) and I would like very much to understand how others are able to manage getting confused without becoming afraid of what is going to happen next. Because mostly, it isn't an explosion, but confusion is what I've learned is the warning before that happens, if there is to be any warning at all.

I think everybody socializes differently. And, in my experience, you simply get better at reading different people with more practice of socializing with them.

It sounds like you handled this situation amazingly well! Especially to be grounded enough to document things, but also to be able to forgive what was done and still be kind. I'm not sure most people would be able to have things be positive after that. It still sounds like a good thing though, that you don't work together anymore.

Being on the other side of this really really hurts though. That's what gives BPD such a bad rap. If someone can lose interest that easily it makes it hard to believe it was ever real in the first place. It feels like you've been taken for a ride and then just left like dirty laundry.


That's good. You're a good person to put dedication first. So many people don't and just don't care. People can be so selfish.


I could never deal with a narcissist. Narcissists scare the hell out of me and generally piss me off. It's unfair how they seem to function relatively well in this society despite being complete as*holes. They also never deal with severe debilitating depression. I just want to knock them down and make them suffer as much as possible. I have no empathy for narcissists and sociopaths. None whatsoever. If I could murder one and get away with it I would. American society loves narcissists though. A lot of people have a massive Ayn Rand hard-on.


People have a heightened sense of humiliated not because they're wired that way but because they've been treated badly. People love to make a massive deal out of anything that differs from the norm. It's not just bullying, but having to read patronizing clinical jargon that has little understanding, over-generalizes to every case, and gets things wrong most of the time. Autistic people don't all enjoy being talked about in the third person rather than asked directly, or told how they feel rather than asked. I was in a special education / resource room part time in elementary school and some of the teachers were so stupid they thought children with HFA were too emotionally ret*d to possibly feel insulted.


Chances are there's more overlap between the two than is acknowledged. Aspies can be sensitive without appearing so to an outsider. I think it's because we tend to hold things in more. My problem is I don't really have an in-between state. I'm either outwardly unemotional, quiet, and in control, or I feel completely out of control and lose my ability to even articulate a sentence. There is no middle ground. It's very possible I have BPD traits though too. I don't really get infatuated with people, but I have some of the other symptoms. I would say my depression comes on more as an emptiness and I get more irritable than sad. It's hard to say though. There are phases where I'm sad and lonely, others where I'm bored, and others when I just don't have any motivation.


I do it because I need mental stimulation by having people to talk to about slightly more personal matters. I don't know how to get close to people in real life. I don't have that fake persona I can put on to entertain people like most guys. I don't have enough energy to fake it, so I'm quiet and boring to most people I happen to meet IRL. I'm rarely in a social mood with "normal" people. People are more open online. It makes things easier and less boring. You don't have to perform. You don't have to engage in trivial conversation that doesn't interest you in the slightest. I suppose it's also because I can control how I come across more easily in writing since I have time to think about it.

Marshall wrote:

That's amazing that that those teachers specialize in helping children, but they don't treat them with respect or consideration. Sorry to hear that happened to you!

I've always had bad experiences with social workers. I'm sure there are many caring and compassionate social workers out there, but the ones I've met seemed more concerned with appearing smart in front of their colleagues than actually helping their patients. I had a woman once too talk about me like I couldn't hear.

One of my cousins has autism, and it's not very mild, so people notice that something is different about him. A lot of times people think he's not very bright, but he's actually very knowledgable on certain topics. He doesn't have a general social intelligence. Due to age difference and location, I don't see him very often, but I wonder how he's treated in his classes. I hope he's not suffering teachers like some you've encountered :/



Have you ever researched other personality disorders? It seems you know something about narcissism and sociopaths, but there's a bunch of others. Some have similar characteristics to Borderline.
This is a nice chart:
http://www.millon.net/taxonomy/index.htm
Millon is known for his subtypes, in the personality disorder field. He also mentions personality disorders that are no longer listed in the DSM, but he felt were still valid, like Sadistic Personality Disorder. Anyway, he's interesting to read.

I agree with you on the depression-- it does sound like you definitely suffer from that. I do too, though it's not as pronounced as it used to be. There's a book I liked very much, The Power of Your Subconscious Mind, that I found really helpful in starting to think more positively. I read it more than a few years ago though, so I can't say if I'd recommend it now, just that I remember it making a big impact on me.


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That's interesting about what you say about connecting on a more honest level with people online than in person. I'm not online much, so I've never known enough to compare the two, but it makes sense. Some people like to hang out in bars because after people have a few drinks they can be more candid.


//
I think people misunderstand Ayn Rand sometimes though. She didn't advocate people hurting other people to get your own ends met. She felt people should be able to live for themselves (as long as they aren't damaging others) without being forced to give to others. She liked charity. But she didn't think people should be forced to give. I've studied a fair amount of philosophy. But I see what you're saying though, people could be misinterpreting her philosophy, and then using that misinterpretation as a justification for their harmful behaviors.

I notice the way people talk to each other is often based around perceived social status. Arrogant doctors automatically assume they know more than you because they are the doctor and you are the patient. They are thus not obligated to listen carefully when you describe your ailment, but jump to conclusions and talk down to you. They like to play their little roles that make them feel important. In general people want to feel self-important. How they feel about themselves is more important than reality. It's like the bankers who crash the economy. Arrogance and hubris. It's quite disgusting to me. A lot of people are disgusting.


I would hope so.



Have you ever researched other personality disorders? It seems you know something about narcissism and sociopaths, but there's a bunch of others. Some have similar characteristics to Borderline.
This is a nice chart:
http://www.millon.net/taxonomy/index.htm
Millon is known for his subtypes, in the personality disorder field. He also mentions personality disorders that are no longer listed in the DSM, but he felt were still valid, like Sadistic Personality Disorder. Anyway, he's interesting to read.[/quote]
I haven't really. Thanks.


Depression is difficult in that it can make you feel tired or physically ill, yet it isn't fully accepted as a biological illness like the flu. Sometimes the level of suffering is just not understandable to outsiders. That's what's so demoralizing. You feel so isolated. People don't get it.


That's true. Probably depends on the person more than anything.


I guess we just agree to disagree on her. She seems to elevate arrogance as a virtue. I see that as harmful because we are all connected. No man is an island. I think passive neglect of our fellow human beings is just as harmful as open violence. I don't think people need to be told to be more arrogant and look out for themselves more. People are arrogant enough as it is. Especially people born with disproportionate power. I wish people didn't have to be forced to be good, but in the real world people just aren't good enough to ensure that the needs of those less fortunate get met. People just aren't good enough. It doesn't take much to see it. We need systems to ensure peoples needs are met or people suffer. Some people may suffer so much they become enraged and violent. Its written all over history.

Marshall wrote:

I thought of another book for dealing with depression, and this one really great: The Feeling Good Handbook. A doctor recommended it to me, and it was really very helpful.

That doctor treated me with respect and care. But I have known plenty of doctors and therapists who didn't, so I know exactly what you mean about some people talking down to you. I had to go through a lot of people to find someone I both liked and worked well with. I'd recommend others do the same-- just keep looking until you're satisfied.

Have you tried meds? Meds never worked for me, or if they did the side effects were too great. But it's different for everyone, so it's possible you could find something to help your depression. Anything that increases serotonin is good I've also done a little reading about herbal remedies. I read a helpful review on Amazon on Kava Kava, written by a guy who suffers from fibromyalgia (which I believe can be caused by depression?)
http://www.amazon.com/KAVA-WAKA-powder- ... Descending
You might try that. You use milk, not water.
Kratom is another one. You can't get it on Amazon, as it's regulated in a few states. It increases serotonin in the brain by the same method of some antidepressants. People take it to get high sometimes, but I think if you take a lower dose and in regular intervals, it could help. Worth looking into, I think. I've not tried it.

Exercise releases endorphins and helps make for a happier person too.

Well, I'm not saying any of these things will do wonders or even help, as depression can be a dark mess, but they might be worth a try.

By the way, have you read J.S. Mill? He makes a good point on many topics, like tradition for the sake of tradition and people needing to be more rational. He believed in social obligation. Ayn Rand did not, but she did believe in helping others (just not under obligation).

Yes, I'm undiagnosed AS and I suspect my wife is borderline, at least lots of her traits are similar to what I've read about. The biggest issue I would say is that she views the world in a very negative way most of the time. Actions and words of others are interpreted in the worst possible way. It's hard to not get dragged down by the negativity. It wasn't really noticeable in the beginning of our relationship (going on 15 years now). The honeymoon phase concealed it.

My wife has many good sides also, but it's hard to deal with the need for drama and need for things happening all the time. A quiet evening at home, just sitting in the sofa reading, is seldom experienced around here. On good days she's a great partner, on bad days she causes so much anxiety for me that I've had to be sick (literally). It's aggrevated by the fact that I need a lot of alone time, and she takes this personally, that I don't want to be around her (well, she's sometimes right!). Even when I do get alone time, the anticipation of her coming home and not knowing what mood she will be in, is enough to cause anxiety...so the alone time loses some of its quality.

Right now I'm unsure of the future of our relationship.

Wow, it sounds like my husband could have written most of this!

He doesn't need as much alone time as he needs time alone in his head. So we can be in the same room, but he's in his own world. Part of that is because he works from home (we both do), so he's at his computer and zoned out to his work. Which is understandable.

He says the same thing about me, that my biggest issue is my negativity. He says too that he's frequently anxious because he doesn't know what mood I'll be in. But, like you two, when things are great, they're really great.

I've been improving a lot, so there are more quiet evenings, but I still have a ways to go.

If your wife is able to work, it sounds like she is at least functional. Can she hold a job consistently? One thing about Borderline is it's so extreme that even to be "high-functioning" Borderline, or to have a mild case, is still extreme and far from normal. But on the Borderline spectrum, it's considered good if you don't cut yourself, don't engage in reckless or promiscuous behavior, and if you can hold a job and keep a relationship going. So what saying is that is sounds like, if she's Borderline, then she's on the milder side; but that in no way implies she's relativity normal or doesn't cause much distress.

One thing my husband says is that while I'm much, much better than I was, he's worn out from when I was more extreme and he just can't handle much anymore.

Does your wife know about BPD? Have you ever told her that you suspect she has that? Has she been to therapy or tried meds? No worries if you don't want to answer any of that, maybe just something to think about.

Does she know anything about Aspergers? Because maybe if she understood it better it could help her take it less personally that you need your alone time. I know it's helped me to learn about Aspergers, because before that I took my husband's lack of affection personally.

There's a lot of good books out there on Borderline. A lot of people like the Walking on Eggshells books. I haven't read those, so I can't speak from personal experience.

I hear you on the need for drama too! That's a hard one. My husband says that I just can't accept when things are good, I have to find something wrong. That happiness is just uncomfortable for me. I usually tell him, "No, that's not true at all," but when I think about it, it probably is true, it's probably something that I do subconsciously, without realizing it. I do think I am much happier than I was though, and can "allow" more happiness in general.

It's not an easy disorder. A lot of therapists and psychologists won't even take Borderlines on as patients. It can be chaotic and destructive. Borderlines also tend to be smart, so they're effective at figuring out what really bothers you and pushing your boundaries. (I think that stems from the fear of abandonment. The (ill)logic is that if you push someone past their boundaries and they don't leave, then they're not going to. But it's a cycle that repeats itself.)

Sorry to hear about all the anxiety you have to go through. That's not an easy way to live.