For the millionth time: Social skills can't be learned

Page 1 of 7 [ 97 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 7  Next

Lifeistoohard
Tufted Titmouse
Tufted Titmouse

User avatar

Joined: 3 Mar 2015
Posts: 41

16 Jan 2016, 10:23 am

I'm tired of guys and girls on this thread who urge Asperger guys to improve social skills since this is an impossible feat.

I've been empathizing looks over social skills in the dating scene since that's the only real thing I am able offer to women at this point (besides just being polite and kind).

Before any of you shout "shallow" at me, let me tell you what is considered impossible to improve on: social skills.

Personality just means being nice so please don't get that confused. You can have a good personality and lack social skills but girls still won't like you.

The brain of an Aspergian is wired in a way where NT social rules and logic simply can't be mastered. NTs can change the rules at unexpected times for purposes of fun and occasionally mind games.

You can't follow a script communicate around NTs, because non verbal cues dictate when the tone of a conversation and change its direction and leave you as the awkward one.

I've tried learning social skills, it's like teaching calculus to someone with dyscalculia. The logic is just too hard to decipher. If I ask too many questions, I'm seen as an FBI agent, if I ask too little, I'm seen as self-absorbed.

In the next 10 years, almost all Americans will be overweight/obese, so staying at a fit weight will be considered an accomplishment in the dating scene. I'll say again: fitness is changeable, social skills are not. Once shy = always shy.

Now you know this quote from a WP member is BS: "still others, such as myself, could hardly care less about how he looks so long as he can debate Socrates."*

* If you have an ASD, you've got to be kidding me!!



rdos
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jul 2005
Age: 59
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,755
Location: Sweden

16 Jan 2016, 10:34 am

NT social skills IMHO are totally irrelevant in the relationship area, because you cannot fake being neurotypical for a lifetime. So I simply don't understand why it is brought up time after time. They are nice to have when meeting strangers, but they have no relevance for relationships and only a small relevance for (shallow) friendships.

So the best advice for finding a compatible partner probably is to refuse to play neurotypical, and if he/she is not ok with that, then they are not a suitable partner.

As for appearance being a good "replacement" for NT social skills, I don't know. Your appearance won't make much of a difference after the initial phase, and it is not a good trait to use to select for compatible people. I'd say giving the appearance of being odd might be much more successful than an appearance that might attract a lot of NTs.



BTDT
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Jul 2010
Age: 57
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,620

16 Jan 2016, 11:05 am

How you look does seem to make a difference with NTs--for instance, women often dress up to go shopping to get better service from those salespeople who work on commission.

http://www.yelp.com/topic/troy-do-you-g ... o-shopping



Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 43,371
Location: Stendec

16 Jan 2016, 12:19 pm

For the millionth time: Social skills can be learned; but only if you never give up trying.


_________________
Since there is no singular, absolute definition of human nature, nor any ultimate evaluation of
human nature beyond that which we project onto others, individuals should only be judged or defined
by their actions and choices, and not by what we imagine their intentions and motivations to be.


0_equals_true
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Apr 2007
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,038
Location: London

16 Jan 2016, 12:25 pm

Sorry but you are plain wrong. I can attest to that.

The differnce is innate social behavior cannot become innate in someone who lack these.

The word 'skills' in this is misleading. We aren't talking about skill that they have just learned, these are innate behaviour that they aren't necessarily aware of, and if you ask them they might give contradictory information.

You can study these. That is precisely what animal behaviorist do with other animals, and it can be observed in humans too. However it is harder to insulate from self influence so you get accurate results, so care must be taken.

You can learn about it, but reading studies and from you own experience, if you are intelligent. You can't always replicate, that is becuase thing like body language happen almost instantly.

However you can use the knowledge to adapt.

Also it is not total knowledge, nobody knows everything.

Social skill that are actual skills can be learned. What you as saying is people on the spectrum are incapable of learning which is not true.



Hopper
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Aug 2012
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,908
Location: North Wayels

16 Jan 2016, 12:49 pm

They can be learned. The difficulty comes in when each one is appropriate (and every social group will have its own ideas on this). But then, even NTs have disagreements about what is appropriate in a given context, and make a faux pas. One NT may find the other is sharing too much. The one 'oversharing' may think the other is being snooty and disinterested.

Social interaction is a constant adjustment of these things. NTs mostly navigate it remarkably well, but they still screw up, particularly when out of their comfort zone.

It is hard, and exhausting, for an Aspie to keep up, but it can be learned. My suggestion would be to find a social behavioural model in which you feel at ease. A sort of etiquette for yourself, and stick to it. Most others will adjust to your pace. If you have to fake being interested in what someone has to say, it's unlikely you'd voluntarily choose to interact with them, let alone as a friend or potential romantic partner.


_________________
Of course, it's probably quite a bit more complicated than that.

You know sometimes, between the dames and the horses, I don't even know why I put my hat on.


Evam
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 24 Mar 2015
Posts: 309

16 Jan 2016, 1:16 pm

When reading posts like the following one from LaetiBlabla (and there are many of them here) I might experience the same kind of desperation than the person who opened the thread. I dont want Aspergers to conform that much to NT social interaction (I actually think that NTs can handle non-conformity better than some Aspergers can, and that faking is bad for both sides), but I would like them to understand that what we NTs are doing is NOT lying most of the time and that we are not just a bunch of egoistic and competitive assholes.

"...
LaetiBlabla wrote:
I personnally have no cognitive problem, i have even a good IQ, so as many Aspergers.
...

Aspergers indeed don't have an intuitive understanding of the complexities of the social interactions.

However Aspergers can very well learn it. I leaned it.

I understand that in the NT social paradigm, there are a lot of truths you may not say (which NT call "politeness"). I understand that the NT social paradigm is based on competition and therefore, you should hide your emotions, hide your personal real objectives, hide your weaknesses, show yourself as better than you are.

Indeed, in the NT social paradigm, if you say the truth, if you don't compete but you are altruistic, if you show your real objectives, if you show your weaknesses...
... the others will feel hurt, take a defensive positions, will attack you when you are not there, take advantage of you or discriminate you. So in order to protect yourself, you have to lie nearly all the time.

I don't support this social NT paradigm because, to my opinion, you cannot base anything constructive on lies. I also think that this fear of other and this mad competition leads to little and big wars.

That is why i consciously remain open to everyone and altruistic, and say truth (in a diplomatic way), even if i know i will have to suffer the consequences."



BTDT
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Jul 2010
Age: 57
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,620

16 Jan 2016, 1:53 pm

I knew someone that had poor social skills to the point where it seriously interfered with his job--but I heard he was an excellent cook--perhaps that was one of the reasons why he was married. He wife also had a successful business before she cashed out--which was rather unusual back then, and still isn't that common today. Perhaps there are other skills you could bring to a relationship to make you more desirable partner



rdos
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jul 2005
Age: 59
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,755
Location: Sweden

16 Jan 2016, 2:02 pm

Evam wrote:
but I would like them to understand that what we NTs are doing is NOT lying most of the time and that we are not just a bunch of egoistic and competitive assholes.


I suppose not, but many of the social skills are unfortunately manipulative skills, which makes it yet another reason why I don't want to master them. What I have learned is to read people and their intentions, but I'm not copying what they do for the most part, as I dislike much of the typical NT social interaction.



Yigeren
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Dec 2015
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,606
Location: United States

16 Jan 2016, 2:34 pm

I've managed to learn quite a few social skills in my lifetime. I was told that it is harder for males, though, for whatever reason.

There are some things that I probably will never learn, but I'm still so much better than I was before.



Yigeren
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Dec 2015
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,606
Location: United States

16 Jan 2016, 2:38 pm

rdos wrote:
Evam wrote:
but I would like them to understand that what we NTs are doing is NOT lying most of the time and that we are not just a bunch of egoistic and competitive assholes.


I suppose not, but many of the social skills are unfortunately manipulative skills, which makes it yet another reason why I don't want to master them. What I have learned is to read people and their intentions, but I'm not copying what they do for the most part, as I dislike much of the typical NT social interaction.


A lot of social skills are basically lying, but they do have a purpose. Lying to spare someone's feelings, lying to keep from embarrassing oneself, lying to try to get along with others.

Small talk is a way of interacting with people that one doesn't know. Without it, it appears that a person is unfriendly. It allows interaction without deep connections. And it allows one to possibly form friendships.

Yes, a lot of NT social interactions are manipulative but some do have a real purpose that is not necessarily bad.



Nist498
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 Dec 2015
Age: 39
Posts: 514
Location: Arkansas

16 Jan 2016, 3:42 pm

There is a difference between social skills and social instinct. It is the latter that aspies don't really have. Even without that though you can learn both social skills and social habits that make interaction easier.


_________________
Diagnosed ASD 4/22/16

All magic comes with a price! - Rumplestiltskin


rdos
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jul 2005
Age: 59
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,755
Location: Sweden

16 Jan 2016, 3:43 pm

Nist498 wrote:
There is a difference between social skills and social instinct. It is the latter that aspies don't really have. Even without that though you can learn both social skills and social habits that make interaction easier.


Exactly. However, in order to learn social skills it's an advantage to first learn to read facial expressions, since like and dislike is often expressed with them, and not verbally.



hurtloam
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Mar 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,350
Location: Eyjafjallajökull

16 Jan 2016, 4:09 pm

I disagree with this idea that all social skills are lies. Having a filter doesn't mean that you are lying. If someone says something stupid, you don't have to agree with them to keep them as a friend. I don't. However, you are not obliged to point out how stupid they are. Just smile and carry one.

A problem those on the spectrum have is that they get caught up in minute details and blow them totally out of proportion. Just let things slide and get on with it. You don't have to take issue with every tiny thing that people say. There are other things, mutual interests that you can talk about.

Of course, you don't ever have to be friends with unkind, backstabbers. Walk away from people like that. I have and I've found good, kind, trustworthy friends. It is possible. I don't always agree with everything they say, but that doesn't mean that I don't like them or feel the need to lie to them.



PumpkinPieeee
Emu Egg
Emu Egg

Joined: 13 Jan 2016
Age: 29
Posts: 3

16 Jan 2016, 6:25 pm

How has that worked out for you so far?



Raleigh
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Jul 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 30,792
Location: Out of my mind

16 Jan 2016, 6:59 pm

Social skills can be learned.
In theory.
That doesn't mean you'll be able to apply them to a myriad of different social situations.

If people can't see who I am behind the social awkwardness that's their loss.
I would rather have a small number of people in my life who are tolerant and forgiving and love me for my faults than a large number who can't look past them.


_________________
It's like I'm sleepwalking