Scientific evidence for humans having Alpha males?

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underwater
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18 Nov 2016, 2:39 am

I usually don't post much in L&D, but I came across this article on a topic that keeps cropping up here:

https://www.theguardian.com/science/bra ... nald-trump

Does there actually exist any scientific evidence that alpha males/females exist in human society, the way it manifests in the animal kingdom?

I keep seeing people referring to alpha/beta males, but I keep thinking the world is a lot more complex than that - and that a lot of men - both autistic and NT - misinterpret women's behaviour because most women are extremely good at pretending to like someone they are scared of.

Secondly, if there are alpha males, where are the alpha females? In the animal kingdom these form pairs. Is that so in human society?


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18 Nov 2016, 4:33 am

It doesn't actually exist, biologically at least.

In modern times its usage is just as slang.

Alpha male refers to men who are tall, facially attractive, muscular, and have outgoing, confident and socially successful personalities. They successfully juggle study/work and social life and go on to enter high-earning positions in the workforce that charisma helped them get there.

Beta refers to average or skinny bodied, average or short height, facially average males who have unassertive pushover personalities. They tend to have a strong interest in trying to impress women and for this reason give women power over their feelings and actions. They tend to moderately struggle with study/work.

I'm not saying 'all alpha men are like this' or 'all beta men are like that', I'm just explaining exactly what the meaning of the two terms are.

Yes, 'alpha women' exist.

Think the attractive women with model looks who find socializing easy, have confident outgoing personalities, and also achieve success in the workforce in things such as Personal Training, Management positions, etc.



The_Face_of_Boo
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18 Nov 2016, 6:17 am



:lol:



whatamievendoing
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18 Nov 2016, 6:31 am

I think the evidence would be more anecdotal than scientific. But in any case, there is a certain type of male and female that society favors, and those, I think, are the "alpha" archetypes.


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18 Nov 2016, 7:22 am

Studies are conflicting but here is one on humans
http://jbd.sagepub.com/content/32/1/76.short

most studies observe chimpanzees or bonobos because they are similar
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 2/abstract
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 7299913891

Unfortunately you may not be able to access the full papers as i can so i do apologize for that.

Dont forget the second episode that suggests males act like bonobos to find love ;)



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19 Nov 2016, 1:30 pm

Alpha people of both genders are generally dangerous psychopaths, in my experience. :lol:

But no, it's not really a scientific thing. For starters, we don't live with a large group of people in which many of the women mate with one guy, and that guy makes all the decisions and drives off enemies and beats the shyt out of members who don't tow the line. There's only one adult male and female in my household.



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19 Nov 2016, 2:14 pm

YippySkippy wrote:
For starters, we don't live with a large group of people in which many of the women mate with one guy, and that guy makes all the decisions and drives off enemies and beats the shyt out of members who don't tow the line. There's only one adult male and female in my household.
The one man/one woman pairing is a social construct, pushed down on people since ancient civilizations. This arrangement persisted all the way until 1960's to 1970's, at least in the Western world. That's where society changed more over 30 years than it did over 3000 years prior. Modern divorce laws, combined with the rise of polyamory, further enabled the breakdown of pair-bonding. So the long-buried propensity to seek out alpha males in women, and to spread their seed far and wide in men, are now bubbling to the surface like a geyser. And here we are today.

There's even a theory that Islamic terrorism stems from polygyny (many wives). Islam allows polygyny of up to wives, while most Western countries do not (yet). Consider this: top of 20% of men (alphas) have sex with 80% of women; second 20% of men (lucky betas) have sex with remaining 20% of women. This leaves 60% of men (other betas) with no partner. Obviously, this makes them angry. Also, all men want to be alphas, even though the alpha/beta divide is hard-coded into a man's DNA. (There's no equivalent genetic divide in women, although there's a milder social divide.) So in order to feel like alphas, those men turn to extreme measures, which can include terrorism.

Given the rise of polyamory in the West, which is the same as polygyny, minus the legal paperwork, jury is still out on what will become of the Western Civilization. Fortunately, not in my lifetime. And since I'm childfree, I won't be putting my nonexistent descendants through that cluster____.



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19 Nov 2016, 6:53 pm

^Says the guy who thinks using hookers is normal, healthy behavior.



Aspie1
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19 Nov 2016, 7:24 pm

YippySkippy wrote:
^Says the guy who thinks using hookers is normal, healthy behavior.
Says someone who's not affected by the alpha/beta divide and therefore doesn't have to worry about it.



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19 Nov 2016, 8:12 pm

YippySkippy wrote:
^Says the guy who thinks using hookers is normal, healthy behavior.


And how is it not?

Of course people being forced into prostitution is wrong, but those that willingly choose to provide sex for money should be perfectly legal and regulated by law to ensure customers, bosses etc. treat them properly.

Whether or not this is achievable in the long-run is another story.

Aspie1:

I don't believe in the 80/20 rule, but a lot of the time, it certainly feels this way.

I just think overall a lot of young men are simply more unhappier to be single than a lot of single women are, and that's why it seems the majority of people complaining on the internet about being lonely and single are young, early 20s men.

This has just been my experiences.

Many, but not all, men are proactive, many, but not all, women reactive.

Some men are more biologically inclined to 'spread their seed' and live their lives while actively seeking out a partner simultaneously, while some women more often than not just live their lives and wait for the 'right guy' to come along. Some women become proactive once they spend too much time alone. Some naturally prefer to make the first move, but they appear rare.

I've also noticed a lot of young men are far more likely to develop feelings for a female friend than the opposite, and even if a man doesn't develop feelings for his female friend, he'd still give her a chance at a romantic or sexual relationship if she were to simply ask politely.

For a lot of women, however, friendship appears to be very set in stone. If she only sees you as a friend, then she ONLY sees you as a friend. 0 attraction whatsoever. Nothing. Zilch.

This'll be long, so just skip reading it if you already agree with me because it'll waste your time otherwise, but to anyone who disagrees, here's a quote of my massive collection of evidence:

Quote:
In my personal experiences, a male is more likely to fall for his female friend than vice-versa.

I've noticed a lot of young men may say they're 'just friends' with a woman, but may be secretly attracted to her, or at least would give her a chance and try for a relationship with her if she were interested in him, but the opposite is rarely true.

When a woman only sees a male as a friend, it seems very set in stone and next to impossible to change. She really does see him 100% as a 'brother' type, while at least 10% of men in this world harbor some deep sub-conscious attractiveness to a female friend just waiting to come out.

A few studies show men think their female friend feels the same way, even slightly attracted to them back, but most of the women report they feel NO attraction whatsoever to a male friend:

http://jezebel.com/5928140/men-usually- ... ng-on-them

Quote:
Researchers surveyed more than 80 ostensibly platonic male-female friendships, and found that the men were often more attracted to their female friends than vice versa. This romantic ardor didn't dissipate if, say, either friend was already dating someone else, which finding Scientific American characterizes as "surprising," but which we might qualify as "indecisive." Men also thought (incorrectly) that their female friends were also secretly harboring major crushes.


All of THESE men actually speak of their attractions to their 'completely platonic friend':

http://thoughtcatalog.com/christine-sto ... n-them-on/

Quote:
“Guys and girls can’t ever be just friends. There will always be some sort of attraction there, at least on one end. There’s not a single girl in my friend group who I haven’t fantasized about at one time or another...


Quote:
Men are visual creatures so sometimes it’s hard to remember that the beautiful body you’re looking at belongs to someone you aren’t supposed to have those kind of feelings for.


This youtube interview video provides more personal experiences:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_lh5fR4DMA

This study says while men and women can be 'just friends', men are more likely to see potential in her as a romantic or sexual partner:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/th ... st-friends

Quote:
Male and female responses did differ on a few key items though. Men were more likely to see sex and romantic potential in an opposite sex friend as a benefit (women primarily saw it as a cost). As a result, men were also more likely than women to say that they had sex with an opposite sex friend (22% vs. 11%). Men were also more likely to report friendship costs of lowered self-worth and giving time to help the friend, while women found their own inability to reciprocate the male's attraction as costly. Therefore, when friendships did not turn sexual or romantic, men were often left feeling rejected and used (i.e. "friend zoned"), while women felt uncomfortable with the unequal attraction. In contrast, when friendships did turn romantic/sexual, some of these men continued to label the women as "just friends" - at about double the rate of women. This leads to the "other" friend zone women more routinely face, the "friends-with-benefits zone", where sex is shared but commitment is not reciprocated.


A few studies show men fall in love harder and faster than women:
http://www.marieclaire.com/sex-love/a57 ... tionships/
http://elitedaily.com/dating/men-likely ... en/965285/

Quote:
Do men get attached more easily than women? And if so, does that represent a sea change in gender behaviors?

The researchers behind a new survey from Match.com seem to think that might be the case. Men apparently fall in love more quickly than women: 54 percent of guys say they've felt love at first sight, for instance, compared to 44 percent of women. Guys are also less interested in having time to themselves, away from their significant other: 77 percent of women say having personal space is "very important," compared to just 58 percent of men, and only 23 percent of guys think it's crucial to have regular nights out with their pals, as opposed to 35 percent of the ladies.


Quote:
According to Marissa Harrison, a psychologist from Pennsylvania State University, women are much more cautious when it comes to love and men have a tendency to fall in — hard and fast.

In a study published in the Journal of Social Psychology, Harrison asked 172 college students if they'd ever been in love.

If participants answered yes, she asked how long it took them to say “I love you.” Not surprisingly, men were prone to say it much faster than women, declaring their love after just a few weeks compared to women, who took a few months.


Women are more likely to initiate divorce than men: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/th ... -heres-why

Quote:
The study, based on a survey of over 2000 heterosexual couples, found that women initiated nearly 70% of all divorces. Yet there was no significant difference between the percentage of breakups initiated by women and men in non-marriage relationships.


Also, when men and women come together to rate the attractiveness of both sexes, women are overall rated by both men and other women higher, and men are rated lower: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/th ... they-think

Quote:
The researchers also examined whether participants’ ratings of others level of attractiveness depended on their own level of self-perceived attractiveness. They found that it did, but only for men. Men who rated themselves as more attractive were more likely to rate others (both women and men) as more attractive. Women, on the other hand, showed no such difference.


OkCupid results show women rate 80% of men as 'below average': https://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your ... ne-dating/

It is in my personal experiences most women do not like to be cold approached by strangers and feel uncomfortable or annoyed by it, and would be unlikely to give a man a chance for a date if he approached her in this manner.

Meanwhile, I can't say I've observed the opposite to be true, because I've seen a lot of men that are very flattered by it and would go on a date with women when cold approached him.

Men are the one's actually affected more by breakups, according to these studies: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/it ... ougher-men

Men are found to be 'more romantic': https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/th ... they-think

Quote:
So let’s start with how men and women score on the most well-known measure of romanticism, the Romantic Beliefs Scale.2 This questionnaire asks people to rate the extent to which they agree with statements like, “There will only be one real love for me," “If I love someone, I know I can make the relationship work, despite any obstacles," and, "The person I love will make a perfect romantic partner; he/she will be completely accepting, loving, and understanding.”

The researchers who developed the scale have found that, on average, men outscore women.


In my personal experiences, as I have spent years browsing multiple websites including here, Reddit, Citydata, Social Anxiety Forum, Facebook, Bodybuilding.com, and a variety of other public forums, men who are single and lonely, and men who identify as 'Forever Alone' (have never had a single relationship or ever felt desired by another person in their entire life) appear to significantly outnumber women in the same position, but of course female F/As exist.

Evidence:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ForeverAlone/c ... lone_male/
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskMen/comment ... alone_men/
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=body ... ilding.com

This collection of my personal experiences, a high amount of the personal experiences of others, and studies and statistics, just goes to provide evidence for the hypothesis that men seek relationships more than women do



Aspie1
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20 Nov 2016, 1:19 pm

Outrider wrote:
I don't believe in the 80/20 rule, but a lot of the time, it certainly feels this way.

I just think overall a lot of young men are simply more unhappier to be single than a lot of single women are, and that's why it seems the majority of people complaining on the internet about being lonely and single are young, early 20s men.
Meh. I choose to believe it. It's not perfect, but it's the best explanation we got. Even though it's polarizingly debatable, like that "global warming" thing. It's not global and it's not warming (ahem... 2014 winter in North America), but it's catchy enough to be believable. And the theorized connection between the 20/80 rule, polygyny, and Islamic terrorism is especially interesting.



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20 Nov 2016, 2:39 pm

Aspie1 wrote:
Outrider wrote:
I don't believe in the 80/20 rule, but a lot of the time, it certainly feels this way.

I just think overall a lot of young men are simply more unhappier to be single than a lot of single women are, and that's why it seems the majority of people complaining on the internet about being lonely and single are young, early 20s men.
Meh. I choose to believe it. It's not perfect, but it's the best explanation we got. Even though it's polarizingly debatable, like that "global warming" thing. It's not global and it's not warming (ahem... 2014 winter in North America), but it's catchy enough to be believable. And the theorized connection between the 20/80 rule, polygyny, and Islamic terrorism is especially interesting.


It's not "global warming", that's an inaccurate label applied by laymen/the public--scientists call it climate change, and the existence of it is not at all debatable. There is an extensive consensus amongst the scientists the world over who have reviewed the evidence that climate change is a real phenomenon that is effected by human activities like the burning of fossil fuels.


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20 Nov 2016, 3:02 pm

wilburforce wrote:
It's not "global warming", that's an inaccurate label applied by laymen/the public--scientists call it climate change, and the existence of it is not at all debatable.
Yeah, I think the "global warming" label, combined with the bad timing of it, pretty much destroyed the bulk of credibility for climate scientists. I mean, they propagated the label during the 2014 winter, when most of America (outside of South Florida and Hawaii) was having Ice Age-like conditions. It feels the same way, when people unaffected by the 20/80 rule are the ones arguing it doesn't exist.

But let's not get off-topic. We're discussing global alpha male populations, not global warming. Carry on.



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20 Nov 2016, 4:51 pm

Aspie1 wrote:
wilburforce wrote:
It's not "global warming", that's an inaccurate label applied by laymen/the public--scientists call it climate change, and the existence of it is not at all debatable.
Yeah, I think the "global warming" label, combined with the bad timing of it, pretty much destroyed the bulk of credibility for climate scientists. I mean, they propagated the label during the 2014 winter, when most of America (outside of South Florida and Hawaii) was having Ice Age-like conditions. It feels the same way, when people unaffected by the 20/80 rule are the ones arguing it doesn't exist.

But let's not get off-topic. We're discussing global alpha male populations, not global warming. Carry on.


Climate scientists don't call it global warming though, because they know that is an inaccurate and incorrect label. It's uninformed and ignorant people who propagate that label. The scientists did not destroy their own credibility, anyone with an education knows that climate change is a real phenomenon.

There are so many holes in your reasoning.


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20 Nov 2016, 6:11 pm

I dunno if this guy is a true alpha with balls of steel or a moron or both.....an alpha moron!
(he actually acted as a beta, hence why the lion didn't attack him).



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20 Nov 2016, 6:38 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
I dunno if this guy is a true alpha with balls of steel or a moron or both.....an alpha moron!
(he actually acted as a beta, hence why the lion didn't attack him).
I don't think lions care if the man they eat is alpha or beta. (There is no alpha/beta in women.) All humans are made of meat just the same. The genetic divide in males only applies to sexual selection by females of the same species.



Last edited by Aspie1 on 20 Nov 2016, 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.