Pickup artists FOR Asperger's

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Scipio
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30 Oct 2018, 3:45 pm

Chummy wrote:
@Scipio yeah, I also always post out of the assumption the OP is serious (like my previous post). I mean, the reason PUA are successful and have lots of views on YT is also related to single guys clicking those vids hoping they could actually use some knowledge or tricks they have up their sleeve. That's why it's kind of "hustling", because not only some of those vids are staged to get money/internet reputation, but there is no end goal here - just harrassing girls (I don't know any example of a PUA artist actually doing this to get a GF rather than "show skill" like this is some kind of a desirable skill to get as much girls' numbers as possible without doing anything - basically a waste of time. If a PUA falls in love with a girl he hit on during the act, he will stop being PUA after dating her.).



You're absolutely right and I agree with you. I tend to really dislike the Youtube PUA guys myself as, aside from the fact that much of their stuff is staged (which was not actually common in the old days because other guys would call it out in the community - but there is not really a community anymore, it is just a bunch of lone wolves skulking around and not really cooperating or communicating with each other), they are usually pretty sleazy and I generally prefer to distance myself from guys who dedicate their entire lives to women as it can easily turn you into a boring person. Women are not bad and it is definitely nice to have good ones in your life, especially if you can manage a healthy long-term relationship, have a family, etc. but, in my view, it is unwise to make women your god (for lack of a better expression). It is always good to have other stuff going on in your life too for the sake of your own mental well-being so that you don't wind up having a complete psychological meltdown like Mystery (Erik Von Markovik) did and for the fact that women are not usually into guys whose sole occupation and passion in life is seducing other women. You're going to need something else to talk with her about during your dates and movie nights that is a bit less off-putting.

"If a PUA falls in love with a girl he hit on during the act, he will stop being PUA after dating her." - I agree with you here too and this is another reason I don't identify as a PUA personally. The original goal of most (but admittedly not all) people who got into the PUA stuff originally was to become the most attractive versions of themselves they could be so that they could sort through and select the girl who would be the best match for them. In the long run, I think that is the best way to go as, to be honest (and speaking from experience) you can burn yourself out and become numb in terms of your ability to bond with a woman. It takes a lot more for a guy to burnout than it takes for a woman on average but it does happen and it's something that guys should bear in mind when they decide to begin learning. The goal is to improve your life and transform yourself into the kind of person who can get what you can't get now, not to be an amoral hedonist and douse both lit ends of your candle with gasoline. This is of course assuming that you want a long term relationship at some point, which the overwhelming majority of men do, especially when they start getting grey hairs.



Last edited by Scipio on 30 Oct 2018, 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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30 Oct 2018, 3:49 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Scipio wrote:
MushroomPrincess wrote:
PUA is rape culture.


No it isn't. ISIS is a rape culture. If we lived in a rape culture, nobody would ever bother learning PUA skills or social skills in general because they would be able to get away with just going out and raping whoever they found attractive. As it stands currently, at least in the US, the fear of even being accused of raping or sexually assaulting a woman is so extreme that it is turning thousands upon thousands of terrified young men into MGTOWs.


Uh-huh.

:lol:


I know you are mocking and being biased as usual.


But he has a point tho, I was never into PUA because it feels so fake to apply them.

However, PUA can be accused as “hookup culture”, “player culture”, “sex for fun culture”, “seduction culture”... and even “manipulation culture”, so I can see why women hate it (as much as a man I hate the Rules book because it objectifies men as wallets)... but I never encountered a pua material encouraging non-consensual sex, so I can’t see any rape culture in it, calling it so is a hyperbol.
Isis does tho (encouraging rape and sex slavery), he is absolutely right in that; any civilized society is anti-rape as a whole (rape is punishable in those societies), saying otherwise is just an unrealistic drama talk.


I was laughing at the idea that thousands of poor, terrified young men are fleeing into the arms of MGTOW.

If men are "terrified" of women speaking out against rape and sexual assault, it's time to do some serious soul-searching.


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Scipio
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30 Oct 2018, 3:54 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Scipio wrote:
MushroomPrincess wrote:
PUA is rape culture.


No it isn't. ISIS is a rape culture. If we lived in a rape culture, nobody would ever bother learning PUA skills or social skills in general because they would be able to get away with just going out and raping whoever they found attractive. As it stands currently, at least in the US, the fear of even being accused of raping or sexually assaulting a woman is so extreme that it is turning thousands upon thousands of terrified young men into MGTOWs.


Uh-huh.

:lol:


I know you are mocking and being biased as usual.


But he has a point tho, I was never into PUA because it feels so fake to apply them.

However, PUA can be accused as “hookup culture”, “player culture”, “sex for fun culture”, “seduction culture”... and even “manipulation culture”, so I can see why women hate it (as much as a man I hate the Rules book because it objectifies men as wallets)... but I never encountered a pua material encouraging non-consensual sex, so I can’t see any rape culture in it, calling it so is a hyperbol.
Isis does tho (encouraging rape and sex slavery), he is absolutely right in that; any civilized society is anti-rape as a whole (rape is punishable in those societies), saying otherwise is just an unrealistic drama talk.


I was laughing at the idea that thousands of poor, terrified young men are fleeing into the arms of MGTOW.

If men are "terrified" of women speaking out against rape and sexual assault, it's time to do some serious soul-searching.



No one is terrified of women speaking out against rape and sexual assault. Every sane civilized person on Earth is against rape and that is not in any way a new thing. They are terrified of being falsely accused which is a very different and increasingly common phenomenon.

Also, the fact that you are laughing at these poor distressed guys who are your fellow humans seems to betray some vicious bigotry on your end.



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30 Oct 2018, 4:11 pm

Scipio wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Scipio wrote:
MushroomPrincess wrote:
PUA is rape culture.


No it isn't. ISIS is a rape culture. If we lived in a rape culture, nobody would ever bother learning PUA skills or social skills in general because they would be able to get away with just going out and raping whoever they found attractive. As it stands currently, at least in the US, the fear of even being accused of raping or sexually assaulting a woman is so extreme that it is turning thousands upon thousands of terrified young men into MGTOWs.


Uh-huh.

:lol:


I know you are mocking and being biased as usual.


But he has a point tho, I was never into PUA because it feels so fake to apply them.

However, PUA can be accused as “hookup culture”, “player culture”, “sex for fun culture”, “seduction culture”... and even “manipulation culture”, so I can see why women hate it (as much as a man I hate the Rules book because it objectifies men as wallets)... but I never encountered a pua material encouraging non-consensual sex, so I can’t see any rape culture in it, calling it so is a hyperbol.
Isis does tho (encouraging rape and sex slavery), he is absolutely right in that; any civilized society is anti-rape as a whole (rape is punishable in those societies), saying otherwise is just an unrealistic drama talk.


I was laughing at the idea that thousands of poor, terrified young men are fleeing into the arms of MGTOW.

If men are "terrified" of women speaking out against rape and sexual assault, it's time to do some serious soul-searching.



No one is terrified of women speaking out against rape and sexual assault. Every sane civilized person on Earth is against rape and that is not in any way a new thing. They are terrified of being falsely accused which is a very different and increasingly common phenomenon.

Also, the fact that you are laughing at these poor distressed guys who are your fellow humans seems to betray some vicious bigotry on your end.


Actually, I'm just waiting on a little something called evidence. Where are these thousands of terrified men? Where are all these supposed "fake" rape allegations coming from? When were they verified as "fake?"

I can be a veritable font of compassion when I need to be, but not in cases where people make things up to fit an convenient narrative.


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Scipio
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30 Oct 2018, 6:04 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
Actually, I'm just waiting on a little something called evidence. Where are these thousands of terrified men? Where are all these supposed "fake" rape allegations coming from? When were they verified as "fake?"

I can be a veritable font of compassion when I need to be, but not in cases where people make things up to fit an convenient narrative.



1. Info about the increasing rate of rape accusations proven by authorities to be false:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape

Evil women has used false rape accusations throughout time in the same way that evil men have used threats of violence against each other. It is a very effective weapon against opponents, especially when one lives in a country where rape and sexual assault are take as gravely seriously by society and the law as they are in the US. There is a percentage of the population, as there has always been, which is psychopathic and will choose to do evil. A lot of women are part of that evil subsection of the population just like a lot of men are.

2. Regarding the MGTOWs, I can't tell you where all of them are as a lot of them try to go off the grid and/or leave the country to be left alone by the American society and government but a number of them are online:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MGTOW/ (the MGTOW subreddit has over 76k subscribers)

https://www.youtube.com/user/SandmanMGTOW (one of the well known MGTOW channels on Youtube has nearly 138k subscribers)

https://www.facebook.com/MenGoingTheirOwnWay (this MGTOW Facebook group has nearly 33k followers)

These are 3 but the internet is peppered with other MGTOW sites, channels, groups, forums, and so on. If you don't notice or care about these guys who are constantly yelling out to anyone who will listen, then that is on you but they are out there and they are unfortunately (I don't actually like MGTOW very much because it does not seem to solve anything) increasing in number. Even if their numbers remained stable and did not increase, that would still be a problem as a number of people probably roughly equivalent to half the population of the state of Wyoming are into MGTOW in the US right now or have been into it. That can only mean that there is some huge problem or collection of problems (like family court and divorce laws) which are not being addressed seriously by society at large (if we can even be said to have a society at this point).

Don't get me wrong, I don't think things are going to turn around and go back to some more innocent time and I think the US is an empire in terminal decline personally so I am not an activist for this because I just don't see anyone in power caring enough about it soon enough to make a significant difference before it's too late. I am only pointing out that it takes a seriously pathological ideology to convince a person who considers hundreds of thousands of guys who are so distressed that their distress is actually overwhelming and shutting down their own male biological imperative (possibly the strongest force in nature) to laugh (as you said you were) like those thugs who filmed themselves laughing while torturing and beating up on that autistic kid in Chicago that they had kidnapped a while back. I think it takes bigotry to be capable of that.

3. I did not sense any compassion in your first response when you stated openly that you were laughing at the idea of thousands of people who feel hurt and abused being ignored because it is not politically correct to address any of their concerns seriously. I sensed callousness and bigotry. But what is modern feminism if not calloused bigotry?



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31 Oct 2018, 1:34 am

I'm hoping all men will join MGTOW so it just leaves me behind as the only option for women to date. Then I'll finally be able to compete! :P



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31 Oct 2018, 4:16 pm

Scipio wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Actually, I'm just waiting on a little something called evidence. Where are these thousands of terrified men? Where are all these supposed "fake" rape allegations coming from? When were they verified as "fake?"

I can be a veritable font of compassion when I need to be, but not in cases where people make things up to fit an convenient narrative.



1. Info about the increasing rate of rape accusations proven by authorities to be false:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape

Evil women has used false rape accusations throughout time in the same way that evil men have used threats of violence against each other. It is a very effective weapon against opponents, especially when one lives in a country where rape and sexual assault are take as gravely seriously by society and the law as they are in the US. There is a percentage of the population, as there has always been, which is psychopathic and will choose to do evil. A lot of women are part of that evil subsection of the population just like a lot of men are.


And the very first sentence:

"A false accusation of rape is the reporting of a rape where no rape has occurred. It is difficult to assess the true prevalence of false rape allegations, but it is generally agreed that, for about 2% to 10% of rape allegations, a thorough investigation establishes that no crime was committed or attempted,"

Doesn't make much of a case for an epidemic of false rape allegation plaguing modern men.


Quote:
2. Regarding the MGTOWs, I can't tell you where all of them are as a lot of them try to go off the grid and/or leave the country to be left alone by the American society and government but a number of them are online:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MGTOW/ (the MGTOW subreddit has over 76k subscribers)

https://www.youtube.com/user/SandmanMGTOW (one of the well known MGTOW channels on Youtube has nearly 138k subscribers)

https://www.facebook.com/MenGoingTheirOwnWay (this MGTOW Facebook group has nearly 33k followers)

These are 3 but the internet is peppered with other MGTOW sites, channels, groups, forums, and so on. If you don't notice or care about these guys who are constantly yelling out to anyone who will listen, then that is on you but they are out there and they are unfortunately (I don't actually like MGTOW very much because it does not seem to solve anything) increasing in number. Even if their numbers remained stable and did not increase, that would still be a problem as a number of people probably roughly equivalent to half the population of the state of Wyoming are into MGTOW in the US right now or have been into it. That can only mean that there is some huge problem or collection of problems (like family court and divorce laws) which are not being addressed seriously by society at large (if we can even be said to have a society at this point).

Don't get me wrong, I don't think things are going to turn around and go back to some more innocent time and I think the US is an empire in terminal decline personally so I am not an activist for this because I just don't see anyone in power caring enough about it soon enough to make a significant difference before it's too late. I am only pointing out that it takes a seriously pathological ideology to convince a person who considers hundreds of thousands of guys who are so distressed that their distress is actually overwhelming and shutting down their own male biological imperative (possibly the strongest force in nature) to laugh (as you said you were) like those thugs who filmed themselves laughing while torturing and beating up on that autistic kid in Chicago that they had kidnapped a while back. I think it takes bigotry to be capable of that.

3. I did not sense any compassion in your first response when you stated openly that you were laughing at the idea of thousands of people who feel hurt and abused being ignored because it is not politically correct to address any of their concerns seriously. I sensed callousness and bigotry. But what is modern feminism if not calloused bigotry?


That demonstrates that MGTOW sites exist on the internet, nothing more. And it also doesn't speak as to the motivations of the men who have memberships to these sites, and it certainly doesn't prove that the majority of them are there because they're being harangued by false rape allegations.

And you sensed nothing but skepticism. If you want to talk about complex social issues such as rape and the cultural attitudes surrounding it, then you'd do well to observe nuance and stick to the facts as opposed to exaggeration and flat-out making things up.


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01 Nov 2018, 8:11 am

Scipio wrote:
That can only mean that there is some huge problem or collection of problems (like family court and divorce laws) which are not being addressed seriously by society at large.


Family court and divorce laws? I replied to another remark of yours about that here. I would appreciate it if you could reply to me in that thread.


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01 Nov 2018, 9:24 am

Scipio wrote:
Most of the basic core stuff (posture, voice, style, conversation steering, eye contact, etc.) can also be carried over and applied with success in making small talk with cashiers, job interviews (I've owned interviews for jobs that I was in no way qualified for, even once getting hired as a schoolteacher in Russia after telling the employer during the interview that I did not have a degree of any kind despite having 50 other actually qualified people gunning for the same job), etc.

You have good reason to be proud of yourself for mastering these skills. However ....

1) The fact that they worked so well, getting you hired in preference over other people much more qualified, reflects a defect in society. Everything would function better, and be much fairer, if employers were trained to see past superficial charm (or lack thereof) and judge people based on their actual qualifications. (Of course there are SOME jobs, e.g. salespeople, for which superficial charm is a bona-fide occupational qualification, but for most other jobs it's not.)

2) If EVERYONE were to put as much effort as you've put into learning superficial charm, the large-scale societal consequence of this would be to raise the bar higher ... and higher ... and higher, until everyone was spending all of their time trying to acquire more superficial charm than everyone else.

3) Therefore, it would be in the best interests of both the autistic community and society as a whole for us to build a social movement based on teaching people to look past social charm or lack thereof.

4) The kinds of social skills that are REALLY needed by everyone, and that would help society as a whole function better (rather than just put us all in a competitive rat race to become more and more superficially charming than everyone else), are things like active listening, assertiveness (as distinct from aggression), giving and receiving constructive criticism, and other conflict prevention/resolution techniques.


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01 Nov 2018, 10:48 am

XFilesGeek wrote:
Scipio wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Scipio wrote:
As it stands currently, at least in the US, the fear of even being accused of raping or sexually assaulting a woman is so extreme that it is turning thousands upon thousands of terrified young men into MGTOWs.


[...]

I was laughing at the idea that thousands of poor, terrified young men are fleeing into the arms of MGTOW.

If men are "terrified" of women speaking out against rape and sexual assault, it's time to do some serious soul-searching.


[...]

No one is terrified of women speaking out against rape and sexual assault. Every sane civilized person on Earth is against rape and that is not in any way a new thing. They are terrified of being falsely accused which is a very different and increasingly common phenomenon.

Also, the fact that you are laughing at these poor distressed guys who are your fellow humans seems to betray some vicious bigotry on your end.


Actually, I'm just waiting on a little something called evidence. Where are these thousands of terrified men? Where are all these supposed "fake" rape allegations coming from? When were they verified as "fake?"

I can be a veritable font of compassion when I need to be, but not in cases where people make things up to fit an convenient narrative.


To be fair, Scipio did not allege that there is now an actual sudden epidemic of false rape allegations, but only that (1) false allegations do exist (however few in number) and (2) there are now lots and lots of young men who fear (justifiably or not) the possibility of false rape accusations.

I have no doubt that such fears exist and are likely to be widespread currently. If nothing else, such fears are currently being stoked by right-wing propaganda in response to the #MeToo movement.

It's too early to tell whether these fears are at all justified. It's too early to tell whether there is, in fact, any actual recent wave of false accusations. But it should be noted that such waves have happened occasionally in the past, so the possibility is not absolutely out of the question. In any case, the fear itself is real and does need to be addressed somehow.


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Last edited by Mona Pereth on 01 Nov 2018, 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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01 Nov 2018, 11:23 am

I avoid walking behind females in the street especially at night; that because ages ago, a lady turned to me and asked “are you following me?” while I was just simpy walking in the same direction; and there was a no small distance, I recall it was at night in a non-crowded souk street. I was surprised and It was awkward, I was like ‘huh??’ since I wasn’t even aware of her presence before addressing me.

So ever since, whenever I see a female walking in front of me (her behind toward me), I either consciously go to the other pavement if possible, or I just walk faster to get past her. If the pavement is too narrow or they’re more than one woman, and walking too slowly, i act as if I am hurry with a verbal alerting like ‘excuse me, excuse me’, that always work to make them move aside subconsciously to let me pass.

I wonder if other men developed such somehow-paranoid habits to avoid such accusations.



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01 Nov 2018, 6:20 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Scipio wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Scipio wrote:
As it stands currently, at least in the US, the fear of even being accused of raping or sexually assaulting a woman is so extreme that it is turning thousands upon thousands of terrified young men into MGTOWs.


[...]

I was laughing at the idea that thousands of poor, terrified young men are fleeing into the arms of MGTOW.

If men are "terrified" of women speaking out against rape and sexual assault, it's time to do some serious soul-searching.


[...]

No one is terrified of women speaking out against rape and sexual assault. Every sane civilized person on Earth is against rape and that is not in any way a new thing. They are terrified of being falsely accused which is a very different and increasingly common phenomenon.

Also, the fact that you are laughing at these poor distressed guys who are your fellow humans seems to betray some vicious bigotry on your end.


Actually, I'm just waiting on a little something called evidence. Where are these thousands of terrified men? Where are all these supposed "fake" rape allegations coming from? When were they verified as "fake?"

I can be a veritable font of compassion when I need to be, but not in cases where people make things up to fit an convenient narrative.


To be fair, Scipio did not allege that there is now an actual sudden epidemic of false rape allegations, but only that (1) false allegations do exist (however few in number) and (2) there are now lots and lots of young men who fear (justifiably or not) the possibility of false rape accusations.

I have no doubt that such fears exist and are likely to be widespread currently. If nothing else, such fears are currently being stoked by right-wing propaganda in response to the #MeToo movement.

It's too early to tell whether these fears are at all justified. It's too early to tell whether there is, in fact, any actual recent wave of false accusations. But it should be noted that such waves have happened occasionally in the past, so the possibility is not absolutely out of the question. In any case, the fear itself is real and does need to be addressed somehow.


An excellent post.

You make very good points. I'll keep them in mind.


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02 Nov 2018, 9:42 am

[MOD]

Scipio's opening post was removed at his request.

[/MOD]


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02 Nov 2018, 5:14 pm

Scipio wrote:
Chummy wrote:
@Scipio yeah, I also always post out of the assumption the OP is serious (like my previous post). I mean, the reason PUA are successful and have lots of views on YT is also related to single guys clicking those vids hoping they could actually use some knowledge or tricks they have up their sleeve. That's why it's kind of "hustling", because not only some of those vids are staged to get money/internet reputation, but there is no end goal here - just harrassing girls (I don't know any example of a PUA artist actually doing this to get a GF rather than "show skill" like this is some kind of a desirable skill to get as much girls' numbers as possible without doing anything - basically a waste of time. If a PUA falls in love with a girl he hit on during the act, he will stop being PUA after dating her.).



You're absolutely right and I agree with you. I tend to really dislike the Youtube PUA guys myself as, aside from the fact that much of their stuff is staged (which was not actually common in the old days because other guys would call it out in the community - but there is not really a community anymore, it is just a bunch of lone wolves skulking around and not really cooperating or communicating with each other), they are usually pretty sleazy and I generally prefer to distance myself from guys who dedicate their entire lives to women as it can easily turn you into a boring person. Women are not bad and it is definitely nice to have good ones in your life, especially if you can manage a healthy long-term relationship, have a family, etc. but, in my view, it is unwise to make women your god (for lack of a better expression). It is always good to have other stuff going on in your life too for the sake of your own mental well-being so that you don't wind up having a complete psychological meltdown like Mystery (Erik Von Markovik) did and for the fact that women are not usually into guys whose sole occupation and passion in life is seducing other women. You're going to need something else to talk with her about during your dates and movie nights that is a bit less off-putting.

"If a PUA falls in love with a girl he hit on during the act, he will stop being PUA after dating her." - I agree with you here too and this is another reason I don't identify as a PUA personally. The original goal of most (but admittedly not all) people who got into the PUA stuff originally was to become the most attractive versions of themselves they could be so that they could sort through and select the girl who would be the best match for them. In the long run, I think that is the best way to go as, to be honest (and speaking from experience) you can burn yourself out and become numb in terms of your ability to bond with a woman. It takes a lot more for a guy to burnout than it takes for a woman on average but it does happen and it's something that guys should bear in mind when they decide to begin learning. The goal is to improve your life and transform yourself into the kind of person who can get what you can't get now, not to be an amoral hedonist and douse both lit ends of your candle with gasoline. This is of course assuming that you want a long term relationship at some point, which the overwhelming majority of men do, especially when they start getting grey hairs.


exactly, PUA is cheap entertainment for the masses.

The sad thing is the more attention people give them, the more it encourages this type of behavior...



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02 Nov 2018, 6:13 pm

mortenvs wrote:
Hello

This topic might already be out here somewhere, but I haven't found it.
I was wondering if there are pickup artists (or something similarily, sort of a mentor) out there in the big world that know how to help people on the spectrum with attracting women as much as possible such as to eventually lead to a girlfriend or even a wife.


Pickup Artist "technology" as a general rule is based upon techniques of interpersonal manipulation. Like any stable kind of control system, such manipulation requires some kind of feedback loop. To be clear, if one makes an effort to manipulate another person, whether it be for romantic or sexual reasons, or simply to sell them something or persuade them to adopt your own point of view, it is necessary to perceive the technique's effectiveness as you proceed along. Despite Aspies' habit of "rehearsing" interactions in their heads before they happen, variations always occur that require an ad lib response that we usually fail with.

So then, by definition, an Aspie is profoundly, utterly, completely incompetent to do this. To adopt a book's set of rules and blindly apply it to another human being is to assume that everyone responds according to version 12.1.0x of some kind of "human operating system" whose response is invariable. Perhaps we could call this "NT-OS," which most likely was the first self-modifying computer program. As we all know from trying to figure out how neurotypicals work, expecting a consistent reaction is a ridiculous assumption.

Initially, it's comforting to think that buying a self-help book and applying its formula will work to cure our social incompetence as well as antibiotics work with certain kinds of infections. Unfortunately, more than five decades of trying this has convinced me that it is a complete waste of time. I've had better luck giving up on those books, and insisting that I'm going to be what I am and if they don't like it they can piss off.

If you do find someone to partner with on a long term basis, as I finally did, most likely it will turn out to be a complete accident, based on just the right kind of weirdness and absurdity, so that it cannot be predicted nor planned. The only trick is to have that happen, before the despair becomes unbearable. Trust and acceptance seems so easy, in theory. In fact it is pretty easy, to get going on a one-way basis (think of the famous Aspie gullibility). It's the two-way kind that seems nearly impossible.