Page 21 of 57 [ 904 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24 ... 57  Next

cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 53
Gender: Male
Posts: 22,175

19 Jul 2021, 6:16 am

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
My take is very LITERAL. An incel is anyone who is involuntary celibate. In this very thread, we have women and older men who, by definition and self-realization, are involuntary celibate, aka INCEL, regardless of their personal beliefs and world view. A rose by any other name. They are incel simply because of their lot in life.

This is why I'm disturbed by the whole redefinition of incel: Any young man who commits violent crimes, regardless of sexual status and self-identity, and lot in life.

I've seen people misappropriate the Autism/Aspeger's label to people who commit crimes, whether Aspies or not. I don't like seeing any label misappropriated. This is what I was trying to convey to cyberdad.


That's not how I see it. An incel (according to the court of public opinion) is a loner young male who never had sex own guns, joins violent online groups and hates women but wants sex. All of the violent incels pictured here on this thread are not autistic.



Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Age: 64
Gender: Male
Posts: 50,632
Location: Stendec

19 Jul 2021, 8:51 am

cyberdad wrote:
ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
My take is very LITERAL.  An incel is anyone who is involuntary celibate.  In this very thread, we have women and older men who, by definition and self-realization, are involuntary celibate, aka INCEL, regardless of their personal beliefs and world view.  [...]
That's not how I see it. An incel (according to the court of public opinion) is a loner young male who never had sex, own guns, joins violent online groups and hates women but wants sex.  All of the violent incels pictured here on this thread are not autistic.
You are both correct, but in different contexts.  Ezbzbfcg2's definition may as well have been lifted from the dictionary, and is the basis for all other definitions.

Cyberdad's definition is more of the common impression of the "typical" Incel; but omits "basement-dwelling mama's boy" for unknown reasons.


_________________
 Link to Official List of Trump's Atrocities 

45OFFICE = TRE45ON
Lock Him Up!


hurtloam
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Mar 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,998
Location: Eyjafjallajökull

19 Jul 2021, 10:59 am

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
My take is very LITERAL. An incel is anyone who is involuntary celibate. In this very thread, we have women and older men who, by definition and self-realization, are involuntary celibate, aka INCEL, regardless of their personal beliefs and world view. A rose by any other name. They are incel simply because of their lot in life.

This is why I'm disturbed by the whole redefinition of incel: Any young man who commits violent crimes, regardless of sexual status and self-identity, and lot in life.

I've seen people misappropriate the Autism/Aspeger's label to people who commit crimes, whether Aspies or not. I don't like seeing any label misappropriated. This is what I was trying to convey to cyberdad.


The term incel has been misappropriated and there's nothing we can do about it now. It's been stolen. Language use changes over time. There's no point arguing semantics. Incel is the bad connotation now even though that's not what it meant originally.

The word "like" used to mean you hated something. Now it means the opposite. That's life.

You don't see people trying to say they like Hitler, but actually they mean they hate him. Why bother with the word incel? Just find a new word. It's over.



that1weirdgrrrl
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Jul 2017
Age: 40
Gender: Female
Posts: 868
Location: Between my dreams and your fantasies

19 Jul 2021, 2:41 pm

hurtloam wrote:
ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
My take is very LITERAL. An incel is anyone who is involuntary celibate. In this very thread, we have women and older men who, by definition and self-realization, are involuntary celibate, aka INCEL, regardless of their personal beliefs and world view. A rose by any other name. They are incel simply because of their lot in life.

This is why I'm disturbed by the whole redefinition of incel: Any young man who commits violent crimes, regardless of sexual status and self-identity, and lot in life.

I've seen people misappropriate the Autism/Aspeger's label to people who commit crimes, whether Aspies or not. I don't like seeing any label misappropriated. This is what I was trying to convey to cyberdad.


The term incel has been misappropriated and there's nothing we can do about it now. It's been stolen. Language use changes over time. There's no point arguing semantics. Incel is the bad connotation now even though that's not what it meant originally.

The word "like" used to mean you hated something. Now it means the opposite. That's life.

You don't see people trying to say they like Hitler, but actually they mean they hate him. Why bother with the word incel? Just find a new word. It's over.


I understand this, but it still saddens me.

Saying "judgey" instead of "judgemental"

"Orientated" instead of "oriented"

"Woke" instead of "enlightened"

I'm sure there are more, and more coming; but those are some of my pet peeves :|

It also makes it harder and harder to communicate with younger folks, because neither of us understands what the other is trying to say.....

[/rant]

Anyway, back to the topic at hand.....


_________________
...what do the public, the great unobservant public, who could hardly tell a weaver by his tooth or a compositor by his left thumb, care about the finer shades of analysis and deduction!


kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 77,173
Location: Queens, NYC

19 Jul 2021, 3:14 pm

A "woke" person could very well be "enlightened" in a very narrow sense.

I don't find "woke" and "enlightened" to even be synonyms......



that1weirdgrrrl
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Jul 2017
Age: 40
Gender: Female
Posts: 868
Location: Between my dreams and your fantasies

19 Jul 2021, 4:22 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
A "woke" person could very well be "enlightened" in a very narrow sense.

I don't find "woke" and "enlightened" to even be synonyms......


Unless I misunderstand, I find them to be synonymous in vocabulary..... (but I self admittedly cross communicate with young folks :lol: )

As an aside, I love this kind of stuff:
https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/843 ... -they-used

I can't find any etymology for "like" that documents a previous definition of "hate" (I dont doubt it, but I wish I could find some documentation in the vast and infinite interwebz)


_________________
...what do the public, the great unobservant public, who could hardly tell a weaver by his tooth or a compositor by his left thumb, care about the finer shades of analysis and deduction!


kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 77,173
Location: Queens, NYC

19 Jul 2021, 4:47 pm

All right....they are somewhat synonymous.....but it is like the "woke" mode of thought is a type of "enlightenment." Especially from the viewpoint of those who are "woke."

When something is said to be "enlightened," it tends to be widely agreed that it is "enlightened."

It is true that the term "woke" is used in the sense of "enlightened"----but there is some doubt as to whether "woke" ideology is actually "enlightened."



kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 77,173
Location: Queens, NYC

19 Jul 2021, 5:03 pm

I would guess that all this is merely my subjective opinion.....

I find, sometimes, that "woke" folks fly the flag of "Enlightenment" in an overbearing way.



funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 36
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 13,403
Location: I'm right here

19 Jul 2021, 5:20 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I would guess that all this is merely my subjective opinion.....

I find, sometimes, that "woke" folks fly the flag of "Enlightenment" in an overbearing way.


I think that1weirdgrrrl views them as more synonymous than you and is only complaining that the term seems awkward because of unfamiliarity with the dialect that spawned it.

Just guessing. :nerdy:


_________________
the problem with capitalism is that eventually you run out of other people's resources and cheap labour to exploit
戦争ではなく戦争と戦う


kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 77,173
Location: Queens, NYC

19 Jul 2021, 5:22 pm

You're probably right :)



that1weirdgrrrl
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Jul 2017
Age: 40
Gender: Female
Posts: 868
Location: Between my dreams and your fantasies

19 Jul 2021, 7:00 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
I would guess that all this is merely my subjective opinion.....

I find, sometimes, that "woke" folks fly the flag of "Enlightenment" in an overbearing way.


I think that1weirdgrrrl views them as more synonymous than you and is only complaining that the term seems awkward because of unfamiliarity with the dialect that spawned it.

Just guessing. :nerdy:


Hahaha, hit the nail on the head :lol:


_________________
...what do the public, the great unobservant public, who could hardly tell a weaver by his tooth or a compositor by his left thumb, care about the finer shades of analysis and deduction!


funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 36
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 13,403
Location: I'm right here

19 Jul 2021, 7:07 pm

that1weirdgrrrl wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
I would guess that all this is merely my subjective opinion.....

I find, sometimes, that "woke" folks fly the flag of "Enlightenment" in an overbearing way.


I think that1weirdgrrrl views them as more synonymous than you and is only complaining that the term seems awkward because of unfamiliarity with the dialect that spawned it.

Just guessing. :nerdy:


Hahaha, hit the nail on the head :lol:


I'd try to work on your understanding towards AAVE influencing the vocabulary of civil rights activism considering who contributes to that cause. It makes more sense after awhile. :wink:


_________________
the problem with capitalism is that eventually you run out of other people's resources and cheap labour to exploit
戦争ではなく戦争と戦う


ezbzbfcg2
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2013
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,565
Location: New Jersey, USA

19 Jul 2021, 7:28 pm

Fnord wrote:
You are both correct, but in different contexts.  Ezbzbfcg2's definition may as well have been lifted from the dictionary, and is the basis for all other definitions.

Cyberdad's definition is more of the common impression of the "typical" Incel; but omits "basement-dwelling mama's boy" for unknown reasons.[/color]


I guess my hang-up rests on two or three things:

I know terminologies change over time, but incel is shorthand for involuntarily celibate. The meaning of those two words hasn't changed. Therefore, a person who is involuntarily celibate is, by shorthand, an incel, regardless of age, sex, beliefs, etc. Doesn't make them any less of an incel just because some young men commit violent acts or live in their mother's basement. (And not all men who do those things are actually involuntarily celibate).

The hoi polloi still misunderstand what autism actually means. You may not be a Rainman, or non-communicative, or a psycho, but many people out there still think that's what autism means. Doesn't make either of us less autistic because the term is misunderstood and used incorrectly. That's why I have an objection. A term that describes group X can now be shifted to apply to group Y. Not all X are Y, and vice versa, but the negative stigma effects the original group. We've seen this countless times with Asperger's/Autism.

There have been threads about people regretting disclosing their Autism diagnosis to employers or educators. Why? Because these people are both ignorant about what autism is and have a incorrect definition. So, I object when I see the same thing happening with other groups. Ideally, we should know better.



cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 53
Gender: Male
Posts: 22,175

19 Jul 2021, 7:58 pm

The changing evolving language is part and parcel of neologisms that have entered out vernacular over the past 40 years, If a person from 1980 travelled in a time machine to 2021 they literally would take many months to get used to the language and meaning in the context of modern times.

This nicely illustrates the conservative backlash is their reluctance to embrace new definitions and colloquialisms that are designed to be more socially inclusive. That is why they label progressives as "woke" as its a reaction to their frustration to their own need to cling to the old ways.

Incels are yet another modern group like antifa, MAGAs, QAnon etc. They mean different things to different people but their is a general consensus on what they represent that doesn't require the user to have to go to the Oxford dictionary to define



ezbzbfcg2
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2013
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,565
Location: New Jersey, USA

19 Jul 2021, 8:03 pm

cyberdad wrote:
They mean different things to different people but their is a general consensus on what they represent that doesn't require the user to have to go to the Oxford dictionary to define

Sadly, the same is true for Autism/Asperger's. Doesn't make the actual meaning any less incorrect.

And this isn't about incels or people perceived to be incels. For me, it's about group dynamics and prejudice and assumption about said group, which we're taught ideally to strive to be above.

But then, it all goes out the window because "society says differently." That's the whole point. The same people who speak out against prejudice experienced by one group turn around and wholeheartedly embrace it with another group, because "that's just the way it is."



kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 77,173
Location: Queens, NYC

19 Jul 2021, 8:06 pm

One of my main regrets is losing my OED (with magnifying glass) while I moved from one apartment to another.