Why do almost all 'incels' blame their situation on looks?

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03 Sep 2019, 1:15 am

I don't want to completely neglect your own experiences techstep, but I think that theory is based on unecessary abstractions. If you're good looking, you will already from an early age automatically be included in so many social situations, that you will naturally develop the personality traits that make you attractive to most people. I'm sure there are outliers, but generally speaking, I almost never see very attractive people in these "social ghettos".

magz
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03 Sep 2019, 2:08 am

One thought:

Despite knowing several 30yo virgins, I've never met IRL anyone identifying as an incel or presenting their views.
Maybe it's my relatively conservative culture? Boys who aren't the most brilliant socially most often focus on a career that would "enable them to support a family" and they typically finally find someone to start the family with, little dating experience is not a big obstacle.

But dating culture of continental Europe seems to differ a lot from US, and Polish conservatist flavor alters it even more.

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hurtloam
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03 Sep 2019, 2:29 am

magz wrote:

I have a Polish friend who is an over 30 singleton female and she does not want to go back to Poland. She feels like she gets treated like a social pariah, like there's something seriously wrong with her because she doesn't have a partner.

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03 Sep 2019, 2:56 am

Closet Genious wrote:

Incels focus on looks because it's by far the most important factor when it comes to dating and relationships. People can cherry pick all they want, and point to the 3-4 exceptions they know of, but the science is pretty clear on this. Denying this is disingenuous, and leads to bad and misleading advice.

Only for NTs. There are other factors at play with NDs. I don't think it is at all unusual for ND couples not to be matched on attractivity or even age. It's more of a norm than an exception.

Closet Genious wrote:

This also applies to this forum. Fact is, if the lonely guys on this forum had let's say 9/10 looks, they would have absolutely no problem finding a parter, regardless of "bad attitudes", poor jobs, depression or autism.

There are specific problems with being ND and very attractive. You might not lack interest from the opposite sex, but most of the people that are interested are incompatible, and so dating them will not work. I'd say you have a better mix of interest if you are average looking.

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03 Sep 2019, 3:03 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

Some caveat to that - with 9/10 looks they could still be blocked out by atypical body language or personalities that don't fit the demands of social conformity or don't match 1:1 to the archetype of what their looks suggest that their personality should be.

Exactly. People expect very attractive people to have typical body language, social preferences, and personalities. So, those that are also very attractive (and thus match them on attractivity level), will typically have high demands for being typical too. They kind of expect this. Those that are NDs might not even bother with showing interest in a typical way in somebody that is very attractive since they find it useless. I certainly had that attitude. If I would get interested in a very attractive girl, it would have to be in an unusual way. I think this increase the problems of NDs that are very attractive.

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03 Sep 2019, 3:12 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

Closet Genious wrote:

In my estimation they could still easily get maybe a 5 to a 7 for a long term relationship with the looks alone. I don't necessarily disagree with you, but looks, even in isolation, will give benefits other factors don't.

I hate to disagree but I've seen too much evidence that 'failure to socially conform' is as big a problem as looks.

None of them are a problem if you search for compatible partners.

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03 Sep 2019, 3:19 am

magz wrote:

In the west, men are not needed to support a family, as women in most cases earn the same, or even sometimes outearn males in the same age bracket. When earning potential is no longer a big factor, looks becomes even more important. Not that I think dating was ever a meritocracy.

I am not an incel, but as far as I understand, incel is not a group or a movement, it's simply a descriptive term, so a big minority of males are actually incels, whether they identify with the term or not. It has to do with being below a certain looks threshold. Like I said before, when income is no longer something women select for(relatively), the majority of the men below the looks threshold will not be selected. Unless they are able to achieve extreme levels of wealth or status, which the majority of the "exceptions" are based upon.

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03 Sep 2019, 3:41 am

Closet Genious wrote:

I am not an incel, but as far as I understand, incel is not a group or a movement, it's simply a descriptive term, so a big minority of males are actually incels, whether they identify with the term or not. It has to do with being below a certain looks threshold. Like I said before, when income is no longer something women select for(relatively), the majority of the men below the looks threshold will not be selected. Unless they are able to achieve extreme levels of wealth or status, which the majority of the "exceptions" are based upon.

That's the majority of NT exceptions. There are also the ND exceptions, where being natural & pursuing love in a more natural way (not dating) kind of breaks down all the rules of NT society between NDs.

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03 Sep 2019, 3:59 am

hurtloam wrote:

Women end up in all girls social ghettos too. Sometimes bitter ones join and make it a men not allowed in at all group and only ever organise girls only activities. I'm the only one who organises anything for mixed groups which one of my friends finds very amusing and keeps bringing up.

It's difficult to claw your way out and find some male company.

Better then being exiled from all groups and being alone like I am.

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magz
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03 Sep 2019, 5:15 am

Closet Genious wrote:

magz wrote:

And who takes the leave when the children need attention?

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techstepgenr8tion
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03 Sep 2019, 6:36 am

Closet Genious wrote:

Those abstractions come into play though with any sort of hidden disability or serious abuse however. Anything that could derail your development in any unrecoverable way. Otherwise, everything being the same, I'd generally agree that looks would carry people's reactions to you and the remainder of your development in a positive direction.

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03 Sep 2019, 6:40 am

rdos wrote:

None of them are a problem if you search for compatible partners.

One should indeed search but if it's so rare that you see one every five or ten years at best and that's disregarding their availability, other deal-breakers like life impingements that you can't keep up with (like an alcoholic that would need you not to drink a drop or anything else), the picture starts forming that the likelihood is slim to none. That's not to say don't try, more like consider permanent singlehood the 90-95% odds.

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03 Sep 2019, 7:15 am

Something I'll add about abstract social complexities - Occam's Razor generally works when you believe yourself to be engaging non-living systems, as inorganic chemistry and physics are often seen, but to some degree complexity tends to explode when life is involved for the simple reason that life is trying to get its genetic information into the next generation, find things to eat, and to get a competitive edge for survival deception of every kind is seen as a critical tool by many. Consequentially with conscious systems combinatorial explosion is deliberate.

The other part, the way people of a certain skillset or mindset constantly thatch the social commons with so much astroturf, it plays right into game theory and Darwinian evolution. Evolution's an amoral process and if anything potentially can win a game people will try it, this is part of why human society has so many predatory feedback loops twined through it and similarly if a person who may be better than them in some ways is making a go of life with integrity and honesty and they can't win the same game they have to play a different one to out-compete that person.

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03 Sep 2019, 7:57 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

It's not necessarily Occam's Razor, I don't think Monday takes his analysis far enough. The question is: why does one's personality not fit one's looks? I've watched some of monday's videos now, and he mentions in a couple of his videos, that he was fat growing up, so that might have interfered with his social opportunities growing up.

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03 Sep 2019, 12:01 pm

sly279 wrote:

hurtloam wrote:

Better then being exiled from all groups and being alone like I am.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not ungrateful for what I have. I do appreciate my friends.

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03 Sep 2019, 2:35 pm

Why do almost all poor people blame their situation on lack of money?

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