Why do almost all 'incels' blame their situation on looks?

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magz
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07 Aug 2019, 9:41 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Bobby Vinton was a singer of Polish descent (who even spoke Polish) who tended to have big hits with songs about "loneliness."

Eastern European culture seems to be less oriented towards keeping up an appearance of happiness than Anglo-American culture tends to be. For example, here in this neighborhood where there are a lot of Eastern Europeans (among many other ethnicities), it is common to answer "How are you?" with "okay" or "surviving" or "could be worse," rather than "fine."

Ask "how are you" in Poland and - unless the person you ask knows the expected answer would be "fine" as part of their foreign language training - you will hear all the troubles and worries of the one you asked :D

I suspect the "Latvian jokes" have similar origin as they were invented by an American living in Latvia.


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The_Face_of_Boo
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07 Aug 2019, 9:46 am

magz wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
I am so lonely, magz.

Come make me less lonely.

Yep, exactly this.


I just had sex last weekend tho, I am fine. I guess.



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07 Aug 2019, 9:49 am

magz wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Bobby Vinton was a singer of Polish descent (who even spoke Polish) who tended to have big hits with songs about "loneliness."

Eastern European culture seems to be less oriented towards keeping up an appearance of happiness than Anglo-American culture tends to be. For example, here in this neighborhood where there are a lot of Eastern Europeans (among many other ethnicities), it is common to answer "How are you?" with "okay" or "surviving" or "could be worse," rather than "fine."

Ask "how are you" in Poland and - unless the person you ask knows the expected answer would be "fine" as part of their foreign language training - you will hear all the troubles and worries of the one you asked :D

I suspect the "Latvian jokes" have similar origin as they were invented by an American living in Latvia.


I will ask you in the Arab way:
How are you?
How’s the family?
How’s the hubby?
How’s work?
How’s the health?

All in a row.



kraftiekortie
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07 Aug 2019, 9:54 am

That's the West African way, too.....Down in Senegal, people often have five-minute introductory greetings.



magz
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07 Aug 2019, 9:55 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
I will ask you in the Arab way:
How are you?
How’s the family?
How’s the hubby?
How’s work?
How’s the health?

All in a row.

Should I answer "Fine, praise God" to each separately or to all collectively?


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The_Face_of_Boo
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07 Aug 2019, 9:59 am

magz wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
I will ask you in the Arab way:
How are you?
How’s the family?
How’s the hubby?
How’s work?
How’s the health?

All in a row.

Should I answer "Fine, praise God" to each separately or to all collectively?


To each separately and if you don’t answer smartly then often it branches to more questions..!



alcockell
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07 Aug 2019, 10:25 am

One aspect to consider is the sheer amount of self-hatred internalised from books like Every Man's BAttle and the other aspects of Purity Culture. Also related is how the book declares sexually -enthusiastic women as out of bounds.

The "BJ Blowers" archetype in the book matches the "Stacy" archetype.

They are being taught Origen/Jerome levels of misogyny.



magz
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07 Aug 2019, 10:52 am

alcockell wrote:
One aspect to consider is the sheer amount of self-hatred internalised from books like Every Man's BAttle and the other aspects of Purity Culture. Also related is how the book declares sexually -enthusiastic women as out of bounds.

The "BJ Blowers" archetype in the book matches the "Stacy" archetype.

They are being taught Origen/Jerome levels of misogyny.

I don't really see how you find purity culture responsible for guys bitter for not getting laid. In purity culture, being a virgin is a virtue, not shame.


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techstepgenr8tion
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07 Aug 2019, 10:59 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
I will ask you in the Arab way:
How are you?
How’s the family?
How’s the hubby?
How’s work?
How’s the health?

All in a row.

Sounds like it's 'Mercanizing over there quite a bit.

The way ThinkingApe puts it, the US was the only place where people would ask a person such a profound question as 'How are you?', let alone demand a speedy tight-lipped response of 'Grate grate! I'm swwellll!'. I can kinda see his point, it's almost analogous to 'What's 2 + 2?' '5!' 'Great! Just making sure you're still obedient to the party!', although I think here the question is more of a sub-in for 'You're not going to rob or rape me right?' to which the canned 'Grate! I'm swell!' is an answer in the affirmative.

Don't get me wrong, if a culture is shifting to a state of lower trust I get that such bizarre handshakes are needed to some degree as fiat short term contracts, but this doesn't seem like it's a habit that we want to be unconscious of the purposes behind or the reasons why it's going through strange contortions or why the cult of positivity is such a big thing. It seems to signal that we're accruing sociological problems and at best slapping duct tape and band-aids on them rather than taking any serious shot at fixing them.


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alcockell
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07 Aug 2019, 11:25 am

magz wrote:
alcockell wrote:
One aspect to consider is the sheer amount of self-hatred internalised from books like Every Man's BAttle and the other aspects of Purity Culture. Also related is how the book declares sexually -enthusiastic women as out of bounds.

The "BJ Blowers" archetype in the book matches the "Stacy" archetype.

They are being taught Origen/Jerome levels of misogyny.

I don't really see how you find purity culture responsible for guys bitter for not getting laid. In purity culture, being a virgin is a virtue, not shame.


If you read the book - it is basically Origen 101 (talked about women as "bags of pus" before castrating himself). Back in the 4th century.



magz
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07 Aug 2019, 11:30 am

alcockell wrote:
magz wrote:
alcockell wrote:
One aspect to consider is the sheer amount of self-hatred internalised from books like Every Man's BAttle and the other aspects of Purity Culture. Also related is how the book declares sexually -enthusiastic women as out of bounds.

The "BJ Blowers" archetype in the book matches the "Stacy" archetype.

They are being taught Origen/Jerome levels of misogyny.

I don't really see how you find purity culture responsible for guys bitter for not getting laid. In purity culture, being a virgin is a virtue, not shame.


If you read the book - it is basically Origen 101 (talked about women as "bags of pus" before castrating himself). Back in the 4th century.

Does the book author also talk like that about women?
I still don't get how you link Origen's misogyny (or what appears misogynic to today's reader) to current day frustrations about not having sex.


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07 Aug 2019, 11:35 am

magz wrote:
... I still don't get how you link Origen's misogyny (or what appears misogynic to today's reader) to current day frustrations about not having sex.
It's more like the Incels were looking for excuses for their involuntary celibacy, stumbled upon Origen, and found in it their reasons for cause.

It's a cart-before-the-horse thing.


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magz
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07 Aug 2019, 11:43 am

Fnord wrote:
magz wrote:
... I still don't get how you link Origen's misogyny (or what appears misogynic to today's reader) to current day frustrations about not having sex.
It's more like the Incels were looking for excuses for their involuntary celibacy, stumbled upon Origen, and found in it their reasons for cause.

It's a cart-before-the-horse thing.

Do you mean it's just looking for a scapegoat to blame? Then I guess Origen is not better or worse than anything or anyone. You can't get laid because of Jengis Khan and Captain Picard. And that annoying miniature pintscher your neighbor owns.


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07 Aug 2019, 11:53 am

magz wrote:
Fnord wrote:
magz wrote:
... I still don't get how you link Origen's misogyny (or what appears misogynic to today's reader) to current day frustrations about not having sex.
It's more like the Incels were looking for excuses for their involuntary celibacy, stumbled upon Origen, and found in it their reasons for cause. It's a cart-before-the-horse thing.
Do you mean it's just looking for a scapegoat to blame?
Yes, that seems to be a common behavior among Incels -- fail first and find something to blame later (anything but themselves, that is), when they should work on improving themselves first before attempting to find a date.
magz wrote:
Then I guess Origen is not better or worse than anything or anyone. You can't get laid because of Jengis Khan and Captain Picard. And that annoying miniature pintscher your neighbor owns.
Maybe that's why the current Administration blames the previous Administration for so many things...

:wink: :lol:


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07 Aug 2019, 1:38 pm

rdos wrote:
I think NDs do participate in subcultures (I certainly do), but I won't identify with the subculture as such rather with selected opinions/ideals of (potentially many different) subcultures. This is why I think that while NTs do identify with various subcultures, NDs are more prone to select their own ideals individually from many different contexts/subcultures instead of buying complete identities.

I've identified with various subcultures to an extent, but far from completely. I tend to be drawn to newly-forming fringe groups within a given subculture. In my experience, newly-forming fringe groups tended to be dominated by people who I now think were probably autistic or otherwise neurodivergent, whereas, once the group got more established, it tended to be taken over by people who I now think were probably NTs. Sometimes the founders then moved on the create new fringe groups.

rdos wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
It's hard for anyone, NT or ND, to exercise one's creativity to its full extent when one is feeling like a lonely, despised outcast. It becomes much easier when there are fellow oddballs who understand you, care about you, and are willing to help you succeed -- even if you don't actually spend much time in the company of said fellow oddballs.


Certainly. However, for me, the most important component of not feeling lonely is not belonging to subcultures, not having friends, but having contact with somebody you have loving feelings towards. It doesn't need to be cohabitation, not even regular conversation, rather it could be really small things that happen regularly.

Yes, but it takes time to get to know a potential love interest, and the easiest way to get to know a potential love interest is through mutual friends, or at least mutual acquaintances. And, if you don't fit well into mainstream society, then the easiest way to find a network of mutual friends, or at least mutual acquaintances, is via oddball subcultures.

rdos wrote:
A mind-to-mind connection is certainly enough.

This is something many of us have NOT experienced, as has been pointed out by various people here.

rdos wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
I certainly am not convinced that all or most autistic people have this nonverbal "natural bonding process" that you speak of.


I don't think all have it, but many probably do. I recently discovered that my ex from 30 years ago, which is likely ND too, also could involve in it.

Besides, I think at least some professionals that diagnose autism is aware of this. I remember when my daughter got her ASD diagnosis that he wondered if she and I had some invisible communication. At the time I had no idea about mind-to-mind connections so his question was a bit surprising and odd. OTOH, I had previously been her "translator" when the school had no idea what she thought about different things in school. I just gave them her opinion that I could read-out directly from her, and when we came home she would never complain that I was wrong (she talked at home but not at school). I didn't know how that worked either. It just worked.

Well, your daughter is genetically similar enough to you that you can read her natural body language, and she also talked at home, so you knew her very well.

rdos wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
I enjoy walking with my friends too -- but I don't see that as a reason not to call them "friends." It seems to me that you associate the word "friendship" with the typical NT trappings of friendship, rather than with the essence of friendship. (It's also not unheard of for NTs to enjoy walking/wandering with their friends.)


I don't know if we should use friendship for things that are not friendships to the typical NT. There is a risk of misunderstanding of what we mean.

I think that claiming it's "not" a friendship is far more confusing. Below is an online dictionary definition of the word "friend":

Quote:
noun
1. a person attached to another by feelings of affection or personal regard.
2. a person who gives assistance; patron; supporter: friends of the Boston Symphony.
3. a person who is on good terms with another; a person who is not hostile: Who goes there? Friend or foe?
4. a member of the same nation, party, etc.
5. (initial capital letter) a member of the Religious Society of Friends; a Quaker.
6. a person associated with another as a contact on a social media website: We've never met, but we're Facebook friends.

verb (used with object)
7. Rare. to befriend.
8. to add (a person) to one's list of contacts on a social media website: I just friended a couple of guys in my class.

The usual meaning of "friend" is definition #1. Note that NONE of these definitions (other than the social media one) say anything about the method of initiating the friendship. Note the absence of any definition along the lines of "a person who becomes attached to another via gossip, unfocused chit chat, and talk about feelings."


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- Long history of participation in various oddball subcultures.
- My "Getting to know each other" thread: Hello from NYC.