Why do almost all 'incels' blame their situation on looks?

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kraftiekortie
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20 Aug 2019, 12:07 am

The “Incel” thing started with Elliot Rodger, for all intents and purposes.



Rainbow_Belle
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20 Aug 2019, 1:44 am

Toxic gaming forums and majority of the gaming forum users are misogynistic, racist, homophobic guys that hold views similar to various alt-right groups. The gaming forum moderators are toxic and share and promote toxic masculinity. Incel movement originated from gaming forums and they have created their own community online. Gaming forums should be avoided like the plague because of the toxic masculinity and bad culture associated with gaming forums.



The_Face_of_Boo
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20 Aug 2019, 3:41 am

Rainbow_Belle wrote:
Toxic gaming forums and majority of the gaming forum users are misogynistic, racist, homophobic guys that hold views similar to various alt-right groups. The gaming forum moderators are toxic and share and promote toxic masculinity. Incel movement originated from gaming forums and they have created their own community online. Gaming forums should be avoided like the plague because of the toxic masculinity and bad culture associated with gaming forums.



Can you point to any sexists posts/threads here: https://www.gamespot.com/forums/



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20 Aug 2019, 5:59 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
The “Incel” thing started with Elliot Rodger, for all intents and purposes.

No, it started much earlier. Elliot Rodger just gave it some mass media notoriety.

Here are articles about the history of the Incel subculture, from Vox and the Guardian.


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Mona Pereth
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20 Aug 2019, 6:03 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Rainbow_Belle wrote:
Toxic gaming forums and majority of the gaming forum users are misogynistic, racist, homophobic guys that hold views similar to various alt-right groups. The gaming forum moderators are toxic and share and promote toxic masculinity. Incel movement originated from gaming forums and they have created their own community online. Gaming forums should be avoided like the plague because of the toxic masculinity and bad culture associated with gaming forums.


Can you point to any sexists posts/threads here: https://www.gamespot.com/forums/

My guess is that Rainbow_Belle is talking primarily about places like 4chan and 8chan, which aren't "gaming forums" per se, but were among the main centers of a massive multi-forum flame war known as "Gamergate."


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- Finally diagnosed with ASD in May 2019, after having suspected it for over ten years, and after having deeply explored the autism community for over one year while waiting for and obtaining diagnosis.
- In longterm relationship with boyfriend who was diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome in 2001.
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Aspie1
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20 Aug 2019, 6:26 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
The “Incel” thing started with Elliot Rodger, for all intents and purposes.

No, it started much earlier. Elliot Rodger just gave it some mass media notoriety.
It actually started with PUA. PUA has its roots in late 1980's in printed books, but it remained very obscure until early 2000's, when the internet went mainstream. (I own a PUA book that's copyrighted 1989.) Unlike today's Red Pill, which is 100% free, online PUA writers charged people for their e-books, although there was also enough free stuff out there to get by. The biggest problem with PUA e-books was their high noise-to-signal ratio. That is, a subset of each book was very helpful, but the rest was fluff at best and damaging at worst. The onus was on the reader to sort out trash from treasure. No such skill is needed with Red Pill sites today. They don't even focus so much on what to do, but rather on how women think, and are mostly user-contributed content, with no centralized publications.

Red Pill and Incel developed from PUA, partially as a reaction to its flaws and partially to address those flaws. When the incels (lowercase) read the PUA e-books without critical thinking and tried out the tactics, it backfired on them. So they reacted. Some by trying to figure out how women actually think, which led to Red Pill, and others by overtly hating women, which led to Incel (uppercase).



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20 Aug 2019, 6:37 am

Aspie1 wrote:
It actually started with PUA. PUA has its roots in late 1980's in printed books, but it remained very obscure until early 2000's, when the internet went mainstream. (I own a PUA book that's copyrighted 1989.) Unlike today's Red Pill, which is 100% free, online PUA writers charged people for their e-books, although there was also enough free stuff out there to get by. The biggest problem with PUA e-books was their high noise-to-signal ratio. That is, a subset of each book was very helpful, but the rest was fluff at best and damaging at worst. The onus was on the reader to sort out trash from treasure. No such skill is needed with Red Pill sites today. They don't even focus so much on what to do, but rather on how women think, and are mostly user-contributed content, with no centralized publications.

Red Pill and Incel developed from PUA, partially as a reaction to its flaws and partially to address those flaws. When the incels (lowercase) read the PUA e-books without critical thinking and tried out the tactics, it backfired on them. So they reacted. Some by trying to figure out how women actually think, which led to Red Pill, and others by overtly hating women, which led to Incel (uppercase).
That all makes sense, and even fits the chronology of all three movements. You might want to go even further back to Playboy Magazine (and similar men's magazines) for the origins. Many of its article were devoted to how women act and react to certain visual, audible, and olfactory stimuli. Playboy was founded in 1953.

Men's magazines (a polite euphemism for pornography) had a great deal to do with raising the expectations of adolescent males as to what the girl-next-door was supposed to look like, how she was supposed to act, and what was supposed to attract her. Most young men were disappointed, if not frustrated, when they found out that real women were nothing like those air-brushed and made-up nude centerfold models (a polite euphemism for women who posed naked for pornography photos).


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techstepgenr8tion
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20 Aug 2019, 6:42 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Quote:
Side note - I just got done reading Frank Herbert's Dune and I found myself liking a lot of what he did when it came to addressing the collective unconscious or something similar - ie. it would be very brutal, very biology and gene centered, race minds, etc. and to the degree that I think there may be a very real 'woo' it's something much more like a Darwinian evolutionary cake with some amount of idealist or quantum-mechanical frosting or glaze.


Incels are house Harkonnen. :mrgreen:

Nah, they're the guild spice-huffers.


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rdos
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20 Aug 2019, 7:02 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
The “Incel” thing started with Elliot Rodger, for all intents and purposes.

No, it started much earlier. Elliot Rodger just gave it some mass media notoriety.

Here are articles about the history of the Incel subculture, from Vox and the Guardian.


Interesting. It's awful how a once peaceful & supportive environment changed into hatred against women and even violence and killings.



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20 Aug 2019, 7:05 am

rdos wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
The “Incel” thing started with Elliot Rodger, for all intents and purposes.
No, it started much earlier...
Interesting. It's awful how a once peaceful & supportive environment changed into hatred against women and even violence and killings.
Yeah ... those Salem Witch Trials were literally murder.


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kraftiekortie
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20 Aug 2019, 8:16 am

I didn’t say it started with Elliot Rodger. I said it became much more widespread with Elliot Rodger (“for all intents and purposes”)

Similar to how the Internet, “for all intents and purposes,” started in the mid 90s. We had some elements of the Internet even in the 1960s.



Mona Pereth
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20 Aug 2019, 3:27 pm

Aspie1 wrote:
Red Pill and Incel developed from PUA

Actually the original "Incel" community had a completely separate lineage, according to various online articles about the history of the Incel subculture, including the ones I posted links to earlier (Vox and the Guardian). Apparently the PUA and "Red Pill" influenced its later development, turning it into the male-only misogynistic thing that it is now.


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- Finally diagnosed with ASD in May 2019, after having suspected it for over ten years, and after having deeply explored the autism community for over one year while waiting for and obtaining diagnosis.
- In longterm relationship with boyfriend who was diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome in 2001.
- Long history of participation in various oddball subcultures.
- My "Getting to know each other" thread: Hello from NYC.


Last edited by Mona Pereth on 20 Aug 2019, 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mona Pereth
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20 Aug 2019, 3:29 pm

Fnord wrote:
rdos wrote:
Interesting. It's awful how a once peaceful & supportive environment changed into hatred against women and even violence and killings.
Yeah ... those Salem Witch Trials were literally murder.

Did you read the articles I linked to?


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- Finally diagnosed with ASD in May 2019, after having suspected it for over ten years, and after having deeply explored the autism community for over one year while waiting for and obtaining diagnosis.
- In longterm relationship with boyfriend who was diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome in 2001.
- Long history of participation in various oddball subcultures.
- My "Getting to know each other" thread: Hello from NYC.


sly279
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20 Aug 2019, 5:30 pm

Fnord wrote:
Aspie1 wrote:
It actually started with PUA. PUA has its roots in late 1980's in printed books, but it remained very obscure until early 2000's, when the internet went mainstream. (I own a PUA book that's copyrighted 1989.) Unlike today's Red Pill, which is 100% free, online PUA writers charged people for their e-books, although there was also enough free stuff out there to get by. The biggest problem with PUA e-books was their high noise-to-signal ratio. That is, a subset of each book was very helpful, but the rest was fluff at best and damaging at worst. The onus was on the reader to sort out trash from treasure. No such skill is needed with Red Pill sites today. They don't even focus so much on what to do, but rather on how women think, and are mostly user-contributed content, with no centralized publications.

Red Pill and Incel developed from PUA, partially as a reaction to its flaws and partially to address those flaws. When the incels (lowercase) read the PUA e-books without critical thinking and tried out the tactics, it backfired on them. So they reacted. Some by trying to figure out how women actually think, which led to Red Pill, and others by overtly hating women, which led to Incel (uppercase).
That all makes sense, and even fits the chronology of all three movements. You might want to go even further back to Playboy Magazine (and similar men's magazines) for the origins. Many of its article were devoted to how women act and react to certain visual, audible, and olfactory stimuli. Playboy was founded in 1953.

Men's magazines (a polite euphemism for pornography) had a great deal to do with raising the expectations of adolescent males as to what the girl-next-door was supposed to look like, how she was supposed to act, and what was supposed to attract her. Most young men were disappointed, if not frustrated, when they found out that real women were nothing like those air-brushed and made-up nude centerfold models (a polite euphemism for women who posed naked for pornography photos).


Women’s magazine and blogs still do that.
But for men.


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The_Face_of_Boo
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21 Aug 2019, 12:52 am

I hope you don't think everyone who thinks that looks is the most deterministic factor in dating = Incel.

There are some facts that no one can deny (And oh, this videos proves that Tinder was never more shallow than Okc):



And no, this is not just a 'dating apps' thing: