People giving ill advice all the time.

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The_Face_of_Boo
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13 Dec 2020, 2:38 am

Sometimes it seems to me that NTs lack theory of mind even worse than aspies.

So there’s this young attractive woman that I knew platonically - who lives in a medium town - we were chatting online the other day and we were talking about covid’s effect on socialisation and dating in particular - and she was giving advice like:

« On the contrary, people now are hungry for socialization more than ever; I just need to get out of house to grocery, I strike conversations with stranger or acquaintance guys and will be willing to connect  further, like giving their numbers. You should do the same.»

Her advice is a total failure because there are factors of differences she’s not considering:

- Gender difference: I am a man, she is a woman; something tells me that stranger men will be much more receptive to an attractive woman striking a chit chat to them; than a plain guy trying to chit chat women who he doesn’t know. Come on, we know the latter case can never work.

- Location difference: She lives in a town while I live in a big city; all the people there virtually have friends or acquaintances in common which is a good convo starter; it is rarely the case in big cities especially in groceries and malls.

There are other factors she also failed to consider like looks difference, personality type (extrovert vs introvert).... etc

But the thing is; why people give such stupid and ill advice all the time that is clearly can’t be applicable on the recipient?

It is the same when a super hot guy for instance give an advice to a fat guy for example on how to start talk with girls in a pub. NTs do it all the time with each other btw and I observe that it never works; it is always the case.



hurtloam
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13 Dec 2020, 4:31 am

Yes, I know what you mean.

"It worked for me therefore it will work for everyone. I will not consider any unique reasons why it worked for me. Nor consider you and your individual circumstances. If you try and refute me I will say you are lazy and don't want to improve and call you disagreeable for trying to use logic."



Last edited by hurtloam on 13 Dec 2020, 4:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

Pepe
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13 Dec 2020, 4:41 am

hurtloam wrote:
Yrs, I know what you mean.

"It worked for me therefore it will work for everyone."


Isn't that Fnord's mantra? :mrgreen:



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13 Dec 2020, 8:51 am

I read you...Face of Boo...NT, here...With all due respect...If the conversation went the way that you relate it here, please rest assure that there is no "ill" intent from her behalf when giving you advice...

I agree with you in that what she told you may not be good advice to YOU (or maybe it is good advice but you do not see it that way)...One thing is for sure, she gave you said 'poor' advice, 'poor' advice, according to you, IN GOOD FAITH...Motivated by a genuine interest for you and your well-being...

Having said the above, the following is a WELL-INTENDED statement on behalf of all NTs, like me, who love someone on the spectrum:

To you on the spectrum, please DO NOT measure NTs with the 'logic' yardstick...Because we are much more than logic (we are sentimental even if we don't always show it)...In the same way, that some of us, NT's strive NOT to measure our beloved Aspie with the 'NT' yardstick...This would be unfair to our beloved Aspie as he or she would surely fall short in some respects...

Thank you for RESPECTING NT's innate 'neurology' (for lack of a better term) as i try to do with YOU ALL WONDERFUL PEOPLE... :heart: :heart: :heart:

Post Script: Greetings from my lockdown state, CA :D



hurtloam
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13 Dec 2020, 9:42 am

What's the point of MEANING well, if the advice is useless though?

I'll give you an example.

I remember in the late 80s there were advertising campaigns about motorcyclists in accidents. Well MEANING people were removing their helmets after an accident, but causing further injury.



MaxE
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13 Dec 2020, 11:22 am

I think this is what usually happens in the L&D forum. People ask for advice but don't provide enough information to allow anyone to give a useful response. What works for one person won't work for many others. To give useful advice, one would need to know the person's attractiveness, ability to mask their autism, degree of independence, prior relationship experience, willingness to engage in casual sex, attitudes toward gender politics, personal history of sexual abuse (if any) and so forth. However it's considered rude to inquire about such things.

EDIT also due to deficiency of Theory of Mind many posters apparently assume, at least subconsicously, that readers already know these things.


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PhosphorusDecree
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13 Dec 2020, 11:37 am

Many people seem to believe that they have to offer a solution if someone mentions that they have a problem. Like a conditioned response. Hear problem, offer glib response based on 5 nanoseconds thought. The motives vary- some clearly believe they are being helpful and nice to you, while for others it's a chance for a condescending little sneer at your apparent stupidity.

I'd much rather they replied "Sorry to hear that. I don't know what you can do about it," or If I think of anything that would help, I'll let you know later."

Also, the L&D forum here is a case of the blind leading the blind a lot of the time. I don't weigh in very often: I can tell people what I've done wrong in my time , but I can't give any positive advice about what to do! Also 2: incels. [sigh]


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KT67
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13 Dec 2020, 11:40 am

Both NTs and aspies struggle when it comes to understanding other neurotypes.

She ought to have the common sense to know it won't work for you though. It wouldn't work for an NT guy in your position either. In fact, it would be annoying in most situations in a big city, regardless of gender.

Also - we're not meant to be stopping and talking to people for 15 minutes or more irl. There's a reason there's one way systems in supermarkets. Hers is bad advice during the pandemic.


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The_Face_of_Boo
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13 Dec 2020, 11:47 am

MaxE wrote:
I think this is what usually happens in the L&D forum. People ask for advice but don't provide enough information to allow anyone to give a useful response. What works for one person won't work for many others. To give useful advice, one would need to know the person's attractiveness, ability to mask their autism, degree of independence, prior relationship experience, willingness to engage in casual sex, attitudes toward gender politics, personal history of sexual abuse (if any) and so forth. However it's considered rude to inquire about such things.

EDIT also due to deficiency of Theory of Mind many posters apparently assume, at least subconsicously, that readers already know these things.



Yup, that crossed my mind too; it happens in WP a lot.



madbutnotmad
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13 Dec 2020, 12:06 pm

Perhaps the NT's advice is good, but some of us simply don't have the confidence to do such things.
I guess being down trodden all our lives ends up in a lack of confidence.

Also.
perhaps other advice that may help us increase our attractiveness, if told to us directly, would be considered in NT's social standards as rude.

For example, telling a fat person to lose weight, or someone with less than perfect facial features to get plastic surgery,
or telling someone who is unkept, to get a make over that makes them look clean and smart.

Telling people such things may hurt the victim, so people may tend to stay in the safe zone and tell them easier to palette advice.

Not that being overweight, less than perfect looking or looking unkept is a crime or anything, and some people may prefer you as you are, however, the chances are if any of those features are a problem for you,
then sorting out what is wrong will often increase your chances.

I know there are other more modern ways to get dates and more, although these do not result in long term relationships.

I would also say that having ASD does mean that we need partners who are strong in certain areas,
such as understanding of ASD, patient, good literal communication skills (so as not to confuse us).

Perhaps there are some out there who will be into this, but i think that getting someone who is, is more rare,
apart from perhaps the ASD population.

Unless your a beautiful girl, then, you will have no problem attracting people, but this also may be a problem.
As too much attention can also be a problem.

Anyway good luck



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13 Dec 2020, 12:20 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
MaxE wrote:
I think this is what usually happens in the L&D forum. People ask for advice but don't provide enough information to allow anyone to give a useful response. What works for one person won't work for many others. To give useful advice, one would need to know the person's attractiveness, ability to mask their autism, degree of independence, prior relationship experience, willingness to engage in casual sex, attitudes toward gender politics, personal history of sexual abuse (if any) and so forth. However it's considered rude to inquire about such things.

EDIT also due to deficiency of Theory of Mind many posters apparently assume, at least subconsicously, that readers already know these things.



Yup, that crossed my mind too; it happens in WP a lot.


...but then people won't read a post if it's too long.

Catch-22.


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13 Dec 2020, 12:25 pm

Joe90 wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
MaxE wrote:
I think this is what usually happens in the L&D forum. People ask for advice but don't provide enough information to allow anyone to give a useful response. What works for one person won't work for many others. To give useful advice, one would need to know the person's attractiveness, ability to mask their autism, degree of independence, prior relationship experience, willingness to engage in casual sex, attitudes toward gender politics, personal history of sexual abuse (if any) and so forth. However it's considered rude to inquire about such things.

EDIT also due to deficiency of Theory of Mind many posters apparently assume, at least subconsicously, that readers already know these things.



Yup, that crossed my mind too; it happens in WP a lot.


...but then people won't read a post if it's too long.

Catch-22.


I generally skip very long posts, but it also has to do with who is posting.



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13 Dec 2020, 12:33 pm

MaxE wrote:
I think this is what usually happens in the L&D forum. People ask for advice but don't provide enough information to allow anyone to give a useful response. What works for one person won't work for many others. To give useful advice, one would need to know the person's attractiveness, ability to mask their autism, degree of independence, prior relationship experience, willingness to engage in casual sex, attitudes toward gender politics, personal history of sexual abuse (if any) and so forth. However it's considered rude to inquire about such things.

EDIT also due to deficiency of Theory of Mind many posters apparently assume, at least subconsicously, that readers already know these things.


Most conversations muddle through.
I can count on one finger, the times I have seen someone clearly present definitions, context and parameters. 8)



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13 Dec 2020, 12:36 pm

madbutnotmad wrote:
Perhaps the NT's advice is good, but some of us simply don't have the confidence to do such things.
I guess being down trodden all our lives ends up in a lack of confidence.

Also.
perhaps other advice that may help us increase our attractiveness, if told to us directly, would be considered in NT's social standards as rude.

For example, telling a fat person to lose weight, or someone with less than perfect facial features to get plastic surgery,
or telling someone who is unkept, to get a make over that makes them look clean and smart.

Telling people such things may hurt the victim, so people may tend to stay in the safe zone and tell them easier to palette advice.

Not that being overweight, less than perfect looking or looking unkept is a crime or anything, and some people may prefer you as you are, however, the chances are if any of those features are a problem for you,
then sorting out what is wrong will often increase your chances.

I know there are other more modern ways to get dates and more, although these do not result in long term relationships.

I would also say that having ASD does mean that we need partners who are strong in certain areas,
such as understanding of ASD, patient, good literal communication skills (so as not to confuse us).

Perhaps there are some out there who will be into this, but i think that getting someone who is, is more rare,
apart from perhaps the ASD population.

Unless your a beautiful girl, then, you will have no problem attracting people, but this also may be a problem.
As too much attention can also be a problem.

Anyway good luck


A guy going up to strange women he doesn't know in a city and trying to chat them up in a supermarket would be seen as at best autistic. It would creep them out.

It's not like in a bar.

It's bad advice from her if meant as dating advice.

Mind you, she might have just meant it as sharing her own experience and she might have meant it platonically. A nice thing about living in a village (or not so nice depending on your POV) is the ability to be friendly like that with 'strangers' because like OP said, you're likely friends of friends.

Americans often say 'town' when they mean 'village'. For other Brits, I suggest we don't do this if we live in towns. My hometown was a town & the chances I knew people there wasn't very likely and it would be seen as strange to strike up such a conversation. If we live in villages, it's still a good idea although not to chat up people, just to be friendly platonically.


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Last edited by KT67 on 13 Dec 2020, 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Pepe
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13 Dec 2020, 12:39 pm

PhosphorusDecree wrote:
Many people seem to believe that they have to offer a solution if someone mentions that they have a problem. Like a conditioned response. Hear problem, offer glib response based on 5 nanoseconds thought. The motives vary- some clearly believe they are being helpful and nice to you, while for others it's a chance for a condescending little sneer at your apparent stupidity.

I'd much rather they replied "Sorry to hear that. I don't know what you can do about it," or If I think of anything that would help, I'll let you know later."

Also, the L&D forum here is a case of the blind leading the blind a lot of the time. I don't weigh in very often: I can tell people what I've done wrong in my time , but I can't give any positive advice about what to do! Also 2: incels. [sigh]


Some people have decades of experience to fall back on. 8)



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13 Dec 2020, 1:36 pm

KT67 wrote:
madbutnotmad wrote:
Perhaps the NT's advice is good, but some of us simply don't have the confidence to do such things.
I guess being down trodden all our lives ends up in a lack of confidence.

Also.
perhaps other advice that may help us increase our attractiveness, if told to us directly, would be considered in NT's social standards as rude.

For example, telling a fat person to lose weight, or someone with less than perfect facial features to get plastic surgery,
or telling someone who is unkept, to get a make over that makes them look clean and smart.

Telling people such things may hurt the victim, so people may tend to stay in the safe zone and tell them easier to palette advice.

Not that being overweight, less than perfect looking or looking unkept is a crime or anything, and some people may prefer you as you are, however, the chances are if any of those features are a problem for you,
then sorting out what is wrong will often increase your chances.

I know there are other more modern ways to get dates and more, although these do not result in long term relationships.

I would also say that having ASD does mean that we need partners who are strong in certain areas,
such as understanding of ASD, patient, good literal communication skills (so as not to confuse us).

Perhaps there are some out there who will be into this, but i think that getting someone who is, is more rare,
apart from perhaps the ASD population.

Unless your a beautiful girl, then, you will have no problem attracting people, but this also may be a problem.
As too much attention can also be a problem.

Anyway good luck


A guy going up to strange women he doesn't know in a city and trying to chat them up in a supermarket would be seen as at best autistic. It would creep them out.

It's not like in a bar.

It's bad advice from her if meant as dating advice.

Mind you, she might have just meant it as sharing her own experience and she might have meant it platonically. A nice thing about living in a village (or not so nice depending on your POV) is the ability to be friendly like that with 'strangers' because like OP said, you're likely friends of friends.

Americans often say 'town' when they mean 'village'. For other Brits, I suggest we don't do this if we live in towns. My hometown was a town & the chances I knew people there wasn't very likely and it would be seen as strange to strike up such a conversation. If we live in villages, it's still a good idea although not to chat up people, just to be friendly platonically.



It's something that even sane NT guys don't do.

And in bars what usually happens is a common friend 'merges' two groups, by introducing one to the other, so they get to know new people. The guy striking conversation to stranger women is even rare in places like bars.