Surely they would see it as harmless?

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Jamesy
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20 May 2021, 2:09 pm

Some of the bar regulars have commented that him talking to young girls is weird and creepy.


I was with him once at the bar and this young girl sat on her female friends lap in front of us. The old guy said to me “I want her to sit on my lap”



Last edited by Jamesy on 20 May 2021, 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kraftiekortie
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20 May 2021, 2:11 pm

That's because of the nature of the venue (it's a bar).



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20 May 2021, 9:51 pm

It depends on conduct and some other things. What does he talk to them about? Is he flirting? Does he importunately talk to young girls vs anyone else? Body language? How do the girls respond to him chatting to them?

I've had older men talk to me before over the years. Some were fine, just having regular conversation but others were decidedly creepy. So the answers to the things I mentioned are rather important in deciding which it ends up being.


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24 May 2021, 3:37 pm

Jamesy wrote:
Some of the bar regulars have commented that him talking to young girls is weird and creepy.


I was with him once at the bar and this young girl sat on her female friends lap in front of us. The old guy said to me “I want her to sit on my lap”


If other patrons are commenting, then it is likely they are noticing signs of discomfort among the younger women that you and your friend are not.

Anything unwanted is weird and creepy. Not all young women know how to stand up for themselves against a man they are likely to equate with authority figures in their lives (fathers, grandfathers, teachers, bosses, etc) so I think your friend should default to the judgement of these fellow patrons. You should assume that many of the younger women are uncomfortable with this man talking to them. It really does not matter if he means it harmlessly or not; unwanted is unwanted. He needs to be more cautious.

I do realize that the changes in social norms over the man's life will have been difficult for him to absorb and understand. The assumptions were all different when him and I were young. But the norms have changed because awareness of the harm done to women has grown. What was assumed to be harmless 40 years ago we've learned was not always harmless, and that there was often damage no one was acknowledging. It would take a book to delve into it all, but for a little perspective, consider this: I have a horrible long term memory, yet I can remember with shocking clarity times a man "harmlessly" made me feel uncomfortable with jokes or flirting. I wish I had a better term than "uncomfortable," but even now I don't have a good name for the feelings those memories invoke. I will leave it what I said earlier: he needs to be more cautious. Your fellow patrons are seeing discomfort you and your friend are missing.


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DW_a_mom
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25 May 2021, 1:25 am

Jamesy wrote:
On nights out one of my associates who is 66 often talks to girls who are as young as 18.

His friends say he should not be talking to much younger women because the girls male friends might take it the wrong way.

I don’t understand though surely an old man chatting to 18 year olds would be seen by others as harmless right?


Something that has bugged me about this thread that I've started to wish I had not skipped past in my post above: why the focus on how male friends might read the situation, instead of wondering how the women read the situation?

What that focus tells me: either men assume they know what the women think (which they don't), or no one cares what the women think. Men don't see women as a physical threat. They don't usually see them as an economic one, either. And therein lies the problem most women will deal with their entire lives when it comes to men: a lot of men have no interest at all in listening.

Can I say, as a woman, just how annoying that is???


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Jamesy
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25 May 2021, 2:50 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
Jamesy wrote:
On nights out one of my associates who is 66 often talks to girls who are as young as 18.

His friends say he should not be talking to much younger women because the girls male friends might take it the wrong way.

I don’t understand though surely an old man chatting to 18 year olds would be seen by others as harmless right?


Something that has bugged me about this thread that I've started to wish I had not skipped past in my post above: why the focus on how male friends might read the situation, instead of wondering how the women read the situation?

What that focus tells me: either men assume they know what the women think (which they don't), or no one cares what the women think. Men don't see women as a physical threat. They don't usually see them as an economic one, either. And therein lies the problem most women will deal with their entire lives when it comes to men: a lot of men have no interest at all in listening.

Can I say, as a woman, just how annoying that is???




yeah sorry I know that was ignorant of me



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25 May 2021, 8:15 am

Bottom line: the 66-year-old guy should take care not to appear creepy to the younger women.



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25 May 2021, 8:22 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
Bottom line: the 66-year-old guy should take care not to appear creepy to the younger women.


Even men my age can seem creepy to younger women



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25 May 2021, 8:33 am

The best thing to do is to talk about your lives. Don't press too hard about how good-looking they are.

In truth, a woman in her 20s doesn't usually find men in their 30s creepy. Some of them even prefer slightly older men.



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25 May 2021, 5:09 pm

Jamesy wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Jamesy wrote:
On nights out one of my associates who is 66 often talks to girls who are as young as 18.

His friends say he should not be talking to much younger women because the girls male friends might take it the wrong way.

I don’t understand though surely an old man chatting to 18 year olds would be seen by others as harmless right?


Something that has bugged me about this thread that I've started to wish I had not skipped past in my post above: why the focus on how male friends might read the situation, instead of wondering how the women read the situation?

What that focus tells me: either men assume they know what the women think (which they don't), or no one cares what the women think. Men don't see women as a physical threat. They don't usually see them as an economic one, either. And therein lies the problem most women will deal with their entire lives when it comes to men: a lot of men have no interest at all in listening.

Can I say, as a woman, just how annoying that is???




yeah sorry I know that was ignorant of me


I really do appreciate that men in today's world have become aware of the issue enough to acknowledge when a mistake is made. Thank you.


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25 May 2021, 9:22 pm

Fnord wrote:
What harm could possibly occur when a 66 year old pervert talks to an 18 year old girl?


Really insulting and offensive. Substitute "black" or "Jewish" or "lesbian" for "66 year old" and see how it sounds.

If two adults talk, it's their business and certainly none of yours.


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25 May 2021, 9:31 pm

Benjamin the Donkey wrote:
Fnord wrote:
What harm could possibly occur when a 66 year old pervert talks to an 18 year old girl?


Really insulting and offensive. Substitute "black" or "Jewish" or "lesbian" for "66 year old" and see how it sounds.

If two adults talk, it's their business and certainly none of yours.


Even if (and I do emphasise the "if") there's potentially some grooming or perving going on?

Having established that this guy is being inappropriate and making some of these women uncomfortable, I'd say he's on his own. I wouldn't want to be associated with him. And yes, sooner or later he will say something really out of order and a jealous boyfriend will punch him, and he'll only have himself to blame.

Don't want any trouble? Don't start any by being a creepy old weirdo.



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26 May 2021, 12:16 am

Benjamin the Donkey wrote:
Fnord wrote:
What harm could possibly occur when a 66 year old pervert talks to an 18 year old girl?


Really insulting and offensive. Substitute "black" or "Jewish" or "lesbian" for "66 year old" and see how it sounds.

If two adults talk, it's their business and certainly none of yours.



You are assuming two EQUAL adults comfortable defending their own interests on equal terms.

But we all know (or should know) that not all adults enter a room on equal terms.

The person in the stronger position should never advance his own interests without caution, trying to fully understand and respect the interests of the person in the weaker position.


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26 May 2021, 2:05 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
If it's "not the case," then why should there be a problem? That doesn't make too much sense.

If it's not flirting, then why is it a problem? Usually, these sorts of problems are the results of perceived or actual flirtation.

If there's no flirtatious intention, then should there be a problem? I would have no problem with a 100-year-old man talking to a 3-year-old little girl. Why the heck should that be a problem if there's only friendly intent?


I don't want to hijack this thread, but it is important that I ask it here rather than start my own thread, mainly because I want to quote you. The question is: from my perspective, in the interactions described below, I didn't say anything sexual. Yet they didn't want me to participate in that group because I would make younger students make "wrong decisions". Do you think "wrong decisions" alludes to sexual? If I quote your words, then the answer seems to be yes (which is why it is so important to quote them, hence my choosing to hijack this post). Yet if I look at everything I said, I can't seem to find anything sexual there. So how would you make sense of it?

Anyway, here it goes:

I am in graduate school, but as you see by my age I am 41 (its my second ph.d.) Few years ago I was invited to Intervarsity Christian Fellowship (I was late 30s at that time, I don't remember exactly what, perhaps 38 or something). It is mainly aimed at undergraduates (so they were early 20s). As it happened, when they invited me I had other plans and I didn't go there that year. But then next year I decided to go. But there was some confusion with time zones, so I came an hour early. At first they looked a bit startled, but when they realized that it were the time zones they let me in. I started questioning them whether my having Asperger contributted to them looking startled. They assured me that everything is fine and I am more than welcome to be there. I then said that the only reason everything is fine is because I clarified what happened. But the question is why did they act startled at first, and whether my Asperger was part of it. They told me that they would have reacted to anyone else the same way if they were to come early. But it doesn't matter any more because now they know it was a confusion. So I told htem that the reason it matters is that, due to my Asperger, I have similar misunderstandings with other people, and I started giving them examples of such misunderstandings I had elsewhere. They couldn't offer a real opinion because they didn't know those other people I kept talking about, but they were making some guesses cause I insisted. Then one of them said that she could meet with me "to practice social skills" few days later.

When students finally came, I participated in activities (games and so forth) but didn't know how to start a conversation, which is one thing I keep complaining about. I tried not to do it in front of others, but when I was seeing one of those people I talked to standing a distance away for few seconds I would run up to them and point out how nobody talks to me and ask whether it is the way I come across due to my Asperger. I remember they did make some effort here and there to try to include me and make me feel comfortable, it just wasn't enough. I also remember I spent a lot of time staring at the cell phone since I was in the middle of some fight at a social anxiety message board and I was typing messages to someone.

Then few days later, when I was "practicing social skills" with that woman I was telling her about some incidents in the past (like over a decade ago) and she kept trying to urge me to let go of them. Then after the meeting was over, I continued that same complaining to that woman over the facebook to which she also replied along the lines that I need to learn to let go of it. Then I said that the reason its hard to let go is because "I wasted the best years of my life" and quoted my age. She didn't respond to that message. Then I received a message from someone else saying that they wanted to meet up to talk to me about the "activities that they have". I came. And then that other person came together with that woman I talked to. And they both told me that I am too old to be going there. I then asked how come they didn't htink that before. They said that they didn't know my actual age until I sent it on facebook. So then I was asking them why they thought its bad for an older person to go there, and they said that I might cause the students to "make wrong decision". Now, it was probably a mistake I dind't outright ask them "by wrong decision do you mean sex? When was the last time I talked about sex?" Instead, I simply kept asking "exactly what kind of wrong decision are you referring to", and they didn't tell me what it was other than repeating that I would make them make "wrong decision" and they were asking me not to come (although they indicated that they can't legally stop me from coming, so I am allowed to come, they are just "asking me" not to).

One thing that they told me is that it has nothing to do with me and that it doesn't matter if I am a good person or bad person, they would tell the same thing to anyone else my age. But here is one thing that makes me skeptical about it. There was a different Christian fellowship that also invited me to come. So I told the guy from that other Christian fellowship about what happened at Intervarsity and asked him if I was treated unfairly. He said he doesn't know unless he talks to them. So I asked him to talk to them. After he talked to them, he asked me not to come to his fellowship either because he "trusts their judgement". But wait a second. I thought they told me that it had nothign to do with me and they would tell the same thing to anyone else my age? So how is he saying it is their judgement about me specifically? I asked him that question and he never gave any answers that weren't vague. He didn't deny their statement that they would turn down anyone else my age. But if that statement was true, then what exactly happened? Did I give him some epiphany that made him turn down my whole entire age group just by interacting with me, and somehow it still had nothing to do with me? Or what am I supposed to make of it?

In any case, back to what you were saying. You said that the "only" way they can disapprove older adults interacting with younger adults is if older adults talk try to be sexual. But where exactly was I sexual in any of the above?



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26 May 2021, 3:51 am

QFT wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
If it's "not the case," then why should there be a problem? That doesn't make too much sense.

If it's not flirting, then why is it a problem? Usually, these sorts of problems are the results of perceived or actual flirtation.

If there's no flirtatious intention, then should there be a problem? I would have no problem with a 100-year-old man talking to a 3-year-old little girl. Why the heck should that be a problem if there's only friendly intent?


I don't want to hijack this thread, but it is important that I ask it here rather than start my own thread, mainly because I want to quote you. The question is: from my perspective, in the interactions described below, I didn't say anything sexual. Yet they didn't want me to participate in that group because I would make younger students make "wrong decisions". Do you think "wrong decisions" alludes to sexual? If I quote your words, then the answer seems to be yes (which is why it is so important to quote them, hence my choosing to hijack this post). Yet if I look at everything I said, I can't seem to find anything sexual there. So how would you make sense of it?

Anyway, here it goes:

I am in graduate school, but as you see by my age I am 41 (its my second ph.d.) Few years ago I was invited to Intervarsity Christian Fellowship (I was late 30s at that time, I don't remember exactly what, perhaps 38 or something). It is mainly aimed at undergraduates (so they were early 20s). As it happened, when they invited me I had other plans and I didn't go there that year. But then next year I decided to go. But there was some confusion with time zones, so I came an hour early. At first they looked a bit startled, but when they realized that it were the time zones they let me in. I started questioning them whether my having Asperger contributted to them looking startled. They assured me that everything is fine and I am more than welcome to be there. I then said that the only reason everything is fine is because I clarified what happened. But the question is why did they act startled at first, and whether my Asperger was part of it. They told me that they would have reacted to anyone else the same way if they were to come early. But it doesn't matter any more because now they know it was a confusion. So I told htem that the reason it matters is that, due to my Asperger, I have similar misunderstandings with other people, and I started giving them examples of such misunderstandings I had elsewhere. They couldn't offer a real opinion because they didn't know those other people I kept talking about, but they were making some guesses cause I insisted. Then one of them said that she could meet with me "to practice social skills" few days later.

When students finally came, I participated in activities (games and so forth) but didn't know how to start a conversation, which is one thing I keep complaining about. I tried not to do it in front of others, but when I was seeing one of those people I talked to standing a distance away for few seconds I would run up to them and point out how nobody talks to me and ask whether it is the way I come across due to my Asperger. I remember they did make some effort here and there to try to include me and make me feel comfortable, it just wasn't enough. I also remember I spent a lot of time staring at the cell phone since I was in the middle of some fight at a social anxiety message board and I was typing messages to someone.

Then few days later, when I was "practicing social skills" with that woman I was telling her about some incidents in the past (like over a decade ago) and she kept trying to urge me to let go of them. Then after the meeting was over, I continued that same complaining to that woman over the facebook to which she also replied along the lines that I need to learn to let go of it. Then I said that the reason its hard to let go is because "I wasted the best years of my life" and quoted my age. She didn't respond to that message. Then I received a message from someone else saying that they wanted to meet up to talk to me about the "activities that they have". I came. And then that other person came together with that woman I talked to. And they both told me that I am too old to be going there. I then asked how come they didn't htink that before. They said that they didn't know my actual age until I sent it on facebook. So then I was asking them why they thought its bad for an older person to go there, and they said that I might cause the students to "make wrong decision". Now, it was probably a mistake I dind't outright ask them "by wrong decision do you mean sex? When was the last time I talked about sex?" Instead, I simply kept asking "exactly what kind of wrong decision are you referring to", and they didn't tell me what it was other than repeating that I would make them make "wrong decision" and they were asking me not to come (although they indicated that they can't legally stop me from coming, so I am allowed to come, they are just "asking me" not to).

One thing that they told me is that it has nothing to do with me and that it doesn't matter if I am a good person or bad person, they would tell the same thing to anyone else my age. But here is one thing that makes me skeptical about it. There was a different Christian fellowship that also invited me to come. So I told the guy from that other Christian fellowship about what happened at Intervarsity and asked him if I was treated unfairly. He said he doesn't know unless he talks to them. So I asked him to talk to them. After he talked to them, he asked me not to come to his fellowship either because he "trusts their judgement". But wait a second. I thought they told me that it had nothign to do with me and they would tell the same thing to anyone else my age? So how is he saying it is their judgement about me specifically? I asked him that question and he never gave any answers that weren't vague. He didn't deny their statement that they would turn down anyone else my age. But if that statement was true, then what exactly happened? Did I give him some epiphany that made him turn down my whole entire age group just by interacting with me, and somehow it still had nothing to do with me? Or what am I supposed to make of it?

In any case, back to what you were saying. You said that the "only" way they can disapprove older adults interacting with younger adults is if older adults talk try to be sexual. But where exactly was I sexual in any of the above?


I will share the red flags that I, personally, see in your post:
(1) your "insisting" opinions be offered that they tried to avoid giving, and
(2) your persistence with a topic the woman repeatedly urged you to "let go of."

I'm just one person, so others may disagree, but this is my read.

You don't have to be in an inappropriate situation for someone to worry how those red flags might play out if you were to be in a dating situation. And, well, Christian fellowships do tend to have the hidden (or not so hidden) agenda of helping people couple up (full disclosure: a church group is basically how I met my husband). You took actions that indicated you don't know when to move on and that you might not know how to take a hint. I realize that both missing signals and having trouble letting go are more ASD things than an age things, but these individuals weren't knowledgeable about handling the quirks that come with ASD. Perhaps they worried that being older you were more stuck in your ways so there was no point in trying to address the concern. Persistence in the face of being urged to not persist makes people uncomfortable, and is generally considered a red flag to women.

Age also affects the power dynamic between people, putting you in a perceived position of more power, making it more difficult for others to be honest with you. That sense of unequal power and influence may also have been involved.

Just my take.


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kraftiekortie
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26 May 2021, 8:09 am

My "take" is that they seemed to think that you wouldn't take "hints," and that you wouldn't "let it go." If there's one thing a woman fears----it's a guy that would not "let it go." Sort of like the movie "Fatal Attraction" (even though the main character with the "fatal attraction" was a woman).

Why can't you listen to someone when they advise you to just "let it go"? You just have to "let it go" sometimes. But, instead, you obsess about it.

If it was an older man who just "goes with the flow," then I don't feel they would have been concerned about you.

But those Facebook conversations inserted doubts into those peoples' minds.

Just let it go, man.