Surely they would see it as harmless?

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Nades
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02 Jun 2021, 2:37 pm

Fnord wrote:
What harm could possibly occur when a 66 year old pervert talks to an 18 year old girl?


Some of your comments are so blunt they're hilarious.



DW_a_mom
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02 Jun 2021, 5:29 pm

QFT wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
QFT wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
You are assuming two EQUAL adults comfortable defending their own interests on equal terms.

But we all know (or should know) that not all adults enter a room on equal terms.


Quite right. He sounds like a pathetic old w*nker and he will never be their equal.


Even though you agree with DW_a_mom that he won't be their equal, it seems like the two of you are emphasizing the opposite aspects of him being unequal. DW_a_mom seems to say he is being in a position of power, while you seem to say that he is being pathetic, which is just the opposite to that.

Now, if we are looking at the aspect you are focusing on, this leads to an excellent question, that is directly related to the fate of most aspies. Why blame the victim? From your point of view, you portray him as the victim. Yet you then turn around and say that this is why he harasses them, thus implying they are the victims. So which way is it? And similarly with aspies. Aspies are victims yet they get blamed for being victims.

Not exactly. If someone is pathetic that doesn't necessarily make them the victim. In this case he's pathetic due to his own actions.


Age is not the action though. So he wants the same thing that younger men want, but he is being denied it due to his age, which is something he has no control over.

In terms of power balance, which party would you say has more power in this situation? The older man or the younger women? DW_a_mom seemed to be saying the older man, but you seem to be saying the younger women. So if you believe the younger women are the more powerful party, why is it you resent the older man so much? A less powerful party can't do much harm to a more powerful party.


Power is an interesting thing. Power can be perceived, it can be real, or it can be both. For that reason, I can understand how each party might be able to perceive themselves as less powerful.

But when it comes to social dynamics, an older man will usually hold more power than a younger woman. Men generally have a physical power advantage over women, men generally are listened to by society more seriously than women are, and age is likely to confer both professional and financial status that carry power.

But you would be correct to point out that in any particular pairing of two unique people, it is entirely possible for the factual dynamic to be different.

Still, it is far safer to assume, as a person watching out for one's own interest, that society will see you as the one with power, and act accordingly.

It is possible for hurt to flow both ways: a woman to be harmed by an unwanted advance from someone she perceives as being in a powerful position than her, and a man who feels himself vulnerable and was emotionally hurt by the rejection. Fault, however, will (or, at least, should) fall to the person who initiated. Hence, my suggestions for the older man to reign himself in and be more cautious.


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DW_a_mom
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02 Jun 2021, 5:43 pm

QFT wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
QFT wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
If you want to share any of my observations with your personal friend who had the second Christian group, feel free.


What made you think he is my friend? He doesn't know me outside that group, and my contact with him is limitted to those interactions I listed in the previous posts.


Why does it matter? I didn’t think that hard about my word choice. I didn’t go back to the posts to see what the actual relationship was. You assume far more intent behind words than was meant. You are over thinking.


I didn't assume "intent". I assumed a misperception. But this misperception is rather big one. If he is my best friend that would be quite different form the situation if he is almost a complete stranger.


I can see how the difference would affect whether or not you would be comfortable trying to renegotiate the situation. Outside of that, it doesn't really matter if I fully understand the dynamics between the two of you; none of my observations or advice would change.


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QFT
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02 Jun 2021, 5:51 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
But when it comes to social dynamics, an older man will usually hold more power than a younger woman. Men generally have a physical power advantage over women,


The physical advantage would only be relevant if I was criminal-minded, since getting physical is a crime. And I am not the kind of person who would do that.

DW_a_mom wrote:
men generally are listened to by society more seriously than women are


I don't think its true. Particularly in the case of my Asperger it seems just the opposite. Nobody takes anything I say seriously due to my Asperger.

As far as NT men vs NT women, I can see both sides. Since women have better social skills than men, it would imply women are listened to more. On the other hand, due to sexism, men would be the ones listened to more.

Now how do the two balance out? I imagine each person would be more likely to listen more to their own gender. To me, the opinion of women is more important than opinion of men since I seek approval of women (hence if you say men don't listen to women I would be an exception). Thats why to me it seems like women are being listened to more -- since the only audience I am concerned about is female audience, and that audience is more willing to listen to women.

DW_a_mom wrote:
and age is likely to confer both professional and financial status that carry power.


As far as financial status, I have the same small income as other graduate students do. So the fact that I am older than them makes my financial future look dimmer than their is. Now, I am hoping to get myself out of that rut, of course, but I am just saying that there is no reason for an outsider looking in to think I am more financially powerful.

As far as professional, yes I am doing second ph.d., but I view it as a bad thing. I would much rather be a professor, but since I couldn't become one (due to competition) I got desperate and went back to graduate school.

DW_a_mom wrote:
Still, it is far safer to assume, as a person watching out for one's own interest, that society will see you as the one with power, and act accordingly.


But the thing is that my kind of Asperger seems to be obvious to everyone (as evident by the fact that I make no friends). So I don't see how they can perceive me as more powerful, unless they are inclined to blame the victim.

Incidentally, I noticed that a lot of dating advice talks about "social proof". As in, if the girls see the guy has a lot of friends they are more likely to approach that kind of guy. So, from this point of view, they are drawn to the guy with more power rather than less, since having a lot of friends imply more power.

So then it means that, according to dating coaches, I am being rejected for having "less" power (not having social proof). Yet I am also being rejected for having "more" power (being an older man). So which way is it?

DW_a_mom wrote:
Fault, however, will (or, at least, should) fall to the person who initiated. Hence, my suggestions for the older man to reign himself in and be more cautious.


I don't initiate though. I mean not verbally. However, it happens at times that I stare at women in order to get "them" to initiate. I can see that this is "even worse" than actually initiating since its creepy. But still, even with staring I don't do that all the time either. Most of the time I just think in my head how I wish women could approach me and they don't. Yet refraining from staring doesn't get them to approach me either.



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02 Jun 2021, 6:45 pm

QFT wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
But when it comes to social dynamics, an older man will usually hold more power than a younger woman. Men generally have a physical power advantage over women,


The physical advantage would only be relevant if I was criminal-minded, since getting physical is a crime. And I am not the kind of person who would do that.


There is no way for women to know that. The factor matters. Women are taught to be extremely self-protective because of the physical differences.

Quote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
men generally are listened to by society more seriously than women are


I don't think its true. Particularly in the case of my Asperger it seems just the opposite. Nobody takes anything I say seriously due to my Asperger.

As far as NT men vs NT women, I can see both sides. Since women have better social skills than men, it would imply women are listened to more. On the other hand, due to sexism, men would be the ones listened to more.

Now how do the two balance out? I imagine each person would be more likely to listen more to their own gender. To me, the opinion of women is more important than opinion of men since I seek approval of women (hence if you say men don't listen to women I would be an exception). Thats why to me it seems like women are being listened to more -- since the only audience I am concerned about is female audience, and that audience is more willing to listen to women.


There will always be individual differences but, overall, society takes the voices of men more seriously than the voices of women. It isn't about social skills. It isn't logical; it just is. We continue to live in a male dominated society that would see the same behavior by a man as justified anger but as hysterics coming from a woman. It is changing, and isn't as bad as it once was, but the stereotypes persist. This isn't about you, its about society in general.

Quote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
and age is likely to confer both professional and financial status that carry power.


As far as financial status, I have the same small income as other graduate students do. So the fact that I am older than them makes my financial future look dimmer than their is. Now, I am hoping to get myself out of that rut, of course, but I am just saying that there is no reason for an outsider looking in to think I am more financially powerful.

As far as professional, yes I am doing second ph.d., but I view it as a bad thing. I would much rather be a professor, but since I couldn't become one (due to competition) I got desperate and went back to graduate school.


These are details that people who don't already know you will not be aware of. Power isn't always about reality, but perception.

My points on power are only a theory when it comes to your situation, but I do think they remain a good guess.

Still, I don't want you to focus on if there is or is not a power issue with you, personally. I want you to focus on your excessive persistence and inability to let things go, even when begged to. That remains the most important advice I've given to you in this thread and that has been pointed out by others, as well. Working on that issue is where your energy needs to be.

Solving the excessive behavior would probably also increase your chances of landing a professorship. To teach, a certain amount of good conversation skill is needed. This truly can be worked on. Please do.

Quote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Still, it is far safer to assume, as a person watching out for one's own interest, that society will see you as the one with power, and act accordingly.


But the thing is that my kind of Asperger seems to be obvious to everyone (as evident by the fact that I make no friends). So I don't see how they can perceive me as more powerful, unless they are inclined to blame the victim.

Incidentally, I noticed that a lot of dating advice talks about "social proof". As in, if the girls see the guy has a lot of friends they are more likely to approach that kind of guy. So, from this point of view, they are drawn to the guy with more power rather than less, since having a lot of friends imply more power.

So then it means that, according to dating coaches, I am being rejected for having "less" power (not having social proof). Yet I am also being rejected for having "more" power (being an older man). So which way is it?

DW_a_mom wrote:
Fault, however, will (or, at least, should) fall to the person who initiated. Hence, my suggestions for the older man to reign himself in and be more cautious.


I don't initiate though. I mean not verbally. However, it happens at times that I stare at women in order to get "them" to initiate. I can see that this is "even worse" than actually initiating since its creepy. But still, even with staring I don't do that all the time either. Most of the time I just think in my head how I wish women could approach me and they don't. Yet refraining from staring doesn't get them to approach me either.


Once again, you are taking the general and trying to turn it into the personal. People who don't know you are making assumptions and evaluating risk based on the norms, not based on anything specific to you.

What IS specific to you is your extreme persistence and need to drill into detail that others wouldn't consider relevant. You need to learn to let go.


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QFT
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03 Jun 2021, 1:25 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
QFT wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
But when it comes to social dynamics, an older man will usually hold more power than a younger woman. Men generally have a physical power advantage over women,


The physical advantage would only be relevant if I was criminal-minded, since getting physical is a crime. And I am not the kind of person who would do that.


There is no way for women to know that. The factor matters. Women are taught to be extremely self-protective because of the physical differences.


One way to know it is that I am at the university rather than on the streets. For example, it is very hard to imagine that one of the male professors that I know would physically attack a woman.

DW_a_mom wrote:
We continue to live in a male dominated society that would see the same behavior by a man as justified anger but as hysterics coming from a woman.


There are opposite examples. For instance, the female high school teachers that had intercourse with their students lost their jobs, but not all of them went to jail: some did some didn't. But male high school teachers having sex with female students all go to jail, no exception.

DW_a_mom wrote:
These are details that people who don't already know you will not be aware of. Power isn't always about reality, but perception.


But if I am being perceived as having power, then why doesn't it help me when it comes to "social proof" that those dating coaches are talking about?

So here is the question about perception. The fact that I don't have a "social proof" implies that I am being "perceived" as not having power. But at the same time you are saying that I am being perceived as if I do have power. So which one is it?

So lets put three people side by side:

a) A woman
b) A man without social proof
c) A man with social proof

So, if I take your point of view that a man is perceived to have more power than a woman, then in terms of power we have a<b<c. But now let us ask whom do women avoid out of those three groups. The answer is that women avoid b. Now, does this strike you as a bit inconsistent that women are happily associating with both ends of the spectrum while avoiding intermediate category?

Or here is another question. If both having social proof and being older amounts to more power, then how come having social proof is attractive to women, while being older is not?

DW_a_mom wrote:
Still, I don't want you to focus on if there is or is not a power issue with you, personally. I want you to focus on your excessive persistence and inability to let things go, even when begged to. That remains the most important advice I've given to you in this thread and that has been pointed out by others, as well. Working on that issue is where your energy needs to be.


So what about the first group where they started off the 2-on-1 meeting by telling me about the age and then insisting the age is the only factor. Do you think they were misleading when it comes to telling me what it is that bothers them?

I mean yes, they did tell me over and over to stop overfocusing, and I continued to. But that was the day "before" that meeting. On the other hand "on" that meeting they just acted like age is the only issue. Do you think they were thinking "okay he won't listen to us anyway, so lets just say whatever lie we can to get rid of him".



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04 Jun 2021, 2:18 am

QFT wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
QFT wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
But when it comes to social dynamics, an older man will usually hold more power than a younger woman. Men generally have a physical power advantage over women,


The physical advantage would only be relevant if I was criminal-minded, since getting physical is a crime. And I am not the kind of person who would do that.


There is no way for women to know that. The factor matters. Women are taught to be extremely self-protective because of the physical differences.


One way to know it is that I am at the university rather than on the streets. For example, it is very hard to imagine that one of the male professors that I know would physically attack a woman.


This is naive. There is no magic formula that will allow women to accurately differentiate the good guys from the bad guys. Because there isn't, the only thing that can affect the perceived power dynamic is obvious physical disability or weakness. Most men are physically capable of overpowering most women. There are exceptions, but a woman would be foolish not to be aware of the reality.

I am asking you to accept a simple fact that has nothing to do with what anyone will or won't actually do.

Quote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
These are details that people who don't already know you will not be aware of. Power isn't always about reality, but perception.


But if I am being perceived as having power, then why doesn't it help me when it comes to "social proof" that those dating coaches are talking about?

So here is the question about perception. The fact that I don't have a "social proof" implies that I am being "perceived" as not having power. But at the same time you are saying that I am being perceived as if I do have power. So which one is it?

So lets put three people side by side:

a) A woman
b) A man without social proof
c) A man with social proof

So, if I take your point of view that a man is perceived to have more power than a woman, then in terms of power we have a<b<c. But now let us ask whom do women avoid out of those three groups. The answer is that women avoid b. Now, does this strike you as a bit inconsistent that women are happily associating with both ends of the spectrum while avoiding intermediate category?

Or here is another question. If both having social proof and being older amounts to more power, then how come having social proof is attractive to women, while being older is not?


I think we're talking apples and oranges, different theories applied for different circumstances. And, honestly, I have no knowledge about this whole "social proof" theory you are repeating. That isn't something I've ever had reason to study or delve into. I HAVE had reason to consider how power imbalances affect interactions; it is something anyone in a management position needs to understand.

If I'm going to try to string together your apparent concerns, my guess would be that perceiving power in the "right" man can enhance his attractiveness as a potential "protector". Perceiving power in the "wrong" man creates unease or fear. I do not personally know of a magic formula that will explain how different women end up intuiting which man falls into which category. But in both cases the men are still perceived to have more power.

Quote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Still, I don't want you to focus on if there is or is not a power issue with you, personally. I want you to focus on your excessive persistence and inability to let things go, even when begged to. That remains the most important advice I've given to you in this thread and that has been pointed out by others, as well. Working on that issue is where your energy needs to be.


So what about the first group where they started off the 2-on-1 meeting by telling me about the age and then insisting the age is the only factor. Do you think they were misleading when it comes to telling me what it is that bothers them?

I mean yes, they did tell me over and over to stop overfocusing, and I continued to. But that was the day "before" that meeting. On the other hand "on" that meeting they just acted like age is the only issue. Do you think they were thinking "okay he won't listen to us anyway, so lets just say whatever lie we can to get rid of him".


You are obsessing. I'm not inside their minds, and I've already given my best theory for what could have been the issue. It would be better for you to understand that you would be likely to solve many of your problems if you learned to stop doing exactly what you are doing right now. Don't obsess. Don't press. Let go.


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09 Jun 2021, 2:07 am

QFT wrote:
So what about the first group where they started off the 2-on-1 meeting by telling me about the age and then insisting the age is the only factor. Do you think they were misleading when it comes to telling me what it is that bothers them?

I mean yes, they did tell me over and over to stop overfocusing, and I continued to. But that was the day "before" that meeting. On the other hand "on" that meeting they just acted like age is the only issue. Do you think they were thinking "okay he won't listen to us anyway, so lets just say whatever lie we can to get rid of him".


They wanted to get rid of you. The easiest way was to focus on the least controversial thing, your age. Since you were much older than the others, it was a good excuse. But, no, age itself wasn't the reason. The guy in group 2 told you age didn't matter, but he also didn't want you around after speaking to the first group.

Yes, you were lied to. Age wasn't the only reason. I wouldn't try to justify a blatant lie. If you want to know why they lied, it's because they didn't want to go into detail about the real reason. They felt they already wasted too much time with you and just wanted you gone. So, they didn't want to answer your questions and give you truthful feedback, that's exactly what they were tired of doing.

They essentially saw you as a social nuisance and didn't want to spend a great deal of time trying to teach you social skills and act as your personal therapist. And, given the age discrepancy, they probably figured if you're struggling this much socially, you're incorrigible. But you weren't going to let up, and they didn't want to deal with you.