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The Grand Inquisitor
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30 Oct 2021, 11:44 am

hurtloam wrote:
The Grand Inquisitor wrote:
Question for OP: Do you think the only thing that can lead an individual to experience persistent misery is not eating well, exercising, getting sunlight, etc?

Do you think that there is nothing else in life that can lead someone to experience a persistently low mood over a long period of time?


Oooh snap.

I was trying to put my finger on why this advice didn't sit right, but you've got it.

Just pull yourself up by your bootstraps dammit! Is essentially what this is saying.

What the OP is doing is taking things that can help with one's general well-being, and magnifying their impact to claim that they're the only things that factor into whether somebody is happy with their life or not. Any time somebody brings up an anecdote that contradicts OP's worldview, OP claims that they've got cause and effect reversed, and it wasn't the individual's satisfactory relationship or romantic experience that lead to their happiness, but rather they somehow experienced a temporary lapse in their depression and that's how they managed to attract that experience to them.

But even that doesn't make sense in accordance with OP's ideology. When I said that my mood was elevated on the few occasions in my life where I've had someone with whom I can interact romantically (albeit only online), the OP claimed that I'd only found those connections because I'd had a temporary lapse in my depression rather than those connections leading to me feeling better. But when I found those connections, I wasn't eating any healthier, getting more sunlight or exercising more, so that's inconsistent with OP's world-view. I wonder what OP will reply to this to somehow make it consistent with his ideology. I'm guessing he'll try to claim that I was eating healthier and exercising more at those times but I just didn't notice, or something crazy like that. In any case, he won't accept that his world-view has been contradicted.

To be consistent, OP would have to accept the notion that somebody who's eating well, exercising and getting sunlight, but who is poor, socially isolated and doesn't have many fun and fulfilling ways they can spend their free time is going to be happier than somebody who doesn't exercise, doesn't eat well and doesn't go outside much, but who has a robust social network, experiences economic and occupational success, is in a happy relationship and has a lot of fulfilling hobbies and activities to attend. I'd be interested to see OP bite that bullet.

hurtloam wrote:
Getting really hurt is the thing that kicked me to get over feeling lonely. I suddenly realised I didn't want that crap again. It wasn't exercise, fresh air helped, being financially stable has helped, pets have helped, good friends have helped, but they weren't the keys to getting better.

Someone said, the not knowing is a horrible feeling. I agree. When I decided, nope, this is not for me I felt freer. I couldn't have decided that when I was younger, but now I know I'm not going to meet anyone, there's nothing hanging over my head. I've planned my future with just me in it. I have a plan now. I like that.

If not being able to find somebody is something you're really struggling with, and you can find a way to make the idea of never getting to have a romantic partner for the rest of your life palatable, that's a good way to go. I can understand how that would feel freeing, liberating you from a heavy burden you've carried for a long time.

It's not possible for everyone though. To some of us, getting to have those experiences, at least at some point in our lives, is just too important to accept the prospect that it'll never happen, and going through life continually being triggered by reminders that romance is a near universal experience, but only for other people dredges up very negative, immutable emotions that will relentlessly taunt you until your situation has changed for the better and those emotions become obsolete.

I completely agree with you that the not knowing is horrible. Alongside nagging feelings of inadequacy, and mourning the lost years you'll never get to make those romantic memories, it's one of the worst parts. I'm glad for you that it no longer hangs over your head.



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30 Oct 2021, 12:08 pm

I'm also friends with women who have been through hell with men. Women who've been married and have had children, but they were never really loved or cherished.

There's a lot of pretending out there and little love. I'm not missing anything. It's a rare handful who find love. It's not universal.

Yeah, they find lust. They feel happy for a bit, but they're just being used. It's a fancy Gucci bag with nothing in it.



nick007
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01 Nov 2021, 1:23 pm

The Grand Inquisitor wrote:
What the OP is doing is taking things that can help with one's general well-being, and magnifying their impact to claim that they're the only things that factor into whether somebody is happy with their life or not. Any time somebody brings up an anecdote that contradicts OP's worldview, OP claims that they've got cause and effect reversed, and it wasn't the individual's satisfactory relationship or romantic experience that lead to their happiness, but rather they somehow experienced a temporary lapse in their depression and that's how they managed to attract that experience to them.
That's exactly what he did when I mentioned how getting my girlfriend improved my life & made me happier. I don't feel like going into all that on this thread as well but your spot on with your observation. Some people won't listen to anything that contradicts their own experiences & beliefs. I can relate to that cuz I am sure stubborn sometimes & was called hard-headed many times by my mom. Trying to argue & push us when we're in that state can make us cling even harder. Nobody likes feeling misunderstood & attacked. Feeling heard & accepted helps me relax enough to see other perspectives. However after a certain point it's best to agree to disagree & move on. Sometimes you just won't see eye to eye with someone because of different experiences or whatever & bickering about it won't help anything. I wish I realized that much sooner in my life.


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01 Nov 2021, 8:34 pm

I wonder what Marknis would have to say about this. I miss him and I worry about him.


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smartHulk
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02 Nov 2021, 5:48 am

The Grand Inquisitor wrote:
What the OP is doing is taking things that can help with one's general well-being, and magnifying their impact to claim that they're the only things that factor into whether somebody is happy with their life or not. Any time somebody brings up an anecdote that contradicts OP's worldview, OP claims that they've got cause and effect reversed, and it wasn't the individual's satisfactory relationship or romantic experience that lead to their happiness, but rather they somehow experienced a temporary lapse in their depression and that's how they managed to attract that experience to them.

How exactly do you think romantic experience leads to happiness?

"Feeling happy" is a process utilizing "happiness" you have accumulated earlier. Quite literally, neurotransmitters are released from tiny sacks into synaptic clefts and up to 50% is metabolized in the process and can't be reused. These stores need to be replenished on regular basis. Just like intense exercise burns through glycogen stores you have accumulated earlier in your muscles.

The moment you will understand how it works, everything OP says will click together.



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02 Nov 2021, 8:50 am

smartHulk wrote:
How exactly do you think romantic experience leads to happiness?

Most people have a desire for romance, and despite what OP may believe, a prolonged intense desire for romance that is unable to be realised while one must watch on, feeling powerless to satisfy that intense desire while being triggered to think about their situation constantly as they have to watch everybody else get to experience it and wonder why they're just not good enough, is a gut-wrenchingly depressing thing to go through.

Not only does it make the individual feel like they must just be less worthy than everyone else around them, but as the years rack up and nothing improves, it becomes harder and harder to justify having hope for the future of their love life.

Here's what romantic experience, assuming it was positive and not abusive or toxic would do for me. It would show me that women I'm interested in can indeed reciprocate that interest, which would give me greater hope for finding someone in the future, even in the times when I was single again if that happened. It would enable me to have near-universal experiences that I care a lot about, that I've been unable to have up until this point, like hugging and kissing a romantic partner, spending time with someone with whom I share a mutual romantic desire, making memories that I'll be able to cherish for the rest of my life, and finally getting an opportunity to explore a facet of life that has been unavailable to me up until this point, enabling me to learn about what does and doesnt work for me in a romantic relationship, and giving me a greater idea about what I want out of one through experience.

Even those times that I've only gotten to talk to women online in that way elicited positive emotions that made me feel better. Because I had something going on, albeit something less significant than would be ideal, reminders of other people's romantic success were less triggering, and the validation I was getting made me feel better about myself. It feels good to be important enough to someone in a romantic way that they choose to invest their time talking to, flirting with and strengthening their connection with you when there's an infinite number of other things they could choose to be doing.



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02 Nov 2021, 9:24 am

The Grand Inquisitor wrote:
Here's what romantic experience, assuming it was positive and not abusive or toxic would do for me.

"Feeling happy" is a process utilizing "happiness" you have accumulated earlier. "Feeling happy" is what makes any experience positive in our perception. How can romantic experience be positive when your "happiness" stores are depleted?



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03 Nov 2021, 3:28 am

Lots of people are unhappy at least partly due to life & environmental circumstances. There is a reason why depression is a common comorbid with autism & various other disabilities. I know from my own personal experience that a decent romantic relationship can sometimes make people happier & be a very positive influence on a person's life. It is not like that for everyone of corse & I am not claiming that it is. Insisting that every person needs to be happy on their own before a romantic relationship can ever make them happier is invalidating my own experiences. I am NOT saying that the OP's personal experience is wrong or that all people who want a romantic relationship could only be happy if they achieve getting a romantic relationship. I have a major problem with one size fits all advice that some claim must work for every single person with no exceptions ever.


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03 Nov 2021, 3:46 am

@nick007 No one is trying to nullify your personal experience, but there is a perfectly good explanation in the original post. Personal experience is one thing, but underlying mechanisms of how our brain creates emotions is another. You can't have positive romantic experience when your "happiness" stores are depleted.

> There is a reason why depression is a common comorbid with autism & various other disabilities.
Yes, to a huge extent the reason is autism and other disabilities make it less likely for a person to enjoy physical activities, spending time outdoors, etc.



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03 Nov 2021, 4:27 am

smartHulk wrote:
The Grand Inquisitor wrote:
Here's what romantic experience, assuming it was positive and not abusive or toxic would do for me.

"Feeling happy" is a process utilizing "happiness" you have accumulated earlier. "Feeling happy" is what makes any experience positive in our perception. How can romantic experience be positive when your "happiness" stores are depleted?

What if my "happiness stores" aren't actually depleted at all, and I can experience happiness, but the things that could bring me happiness are out of my reach, and I'm saddened by that?

I still never got an answer. Do you think there's nothing else other than a lack of a healthy diet, sunlight and exercise that could lead an individual to experience persistent sadness over a long period of time?

I guess someone who's feeling down about their loved one being in a long and agonising battle with terminal cancer really just needs to eat their leafy greens and get their vitamin D, right? Then they'll be feeling all better.

And if having a loved one dying of cancer is a valid reason to be sad in spite of diet and exercise habits, what is the most horrible thing someone can experience where their sadness isn't directly related to that horrible thing, but is instead due to dietary and lifestyle factors?

If you don't have an answer to these questions, I'm not going bother engaging with you on this subject anymore.



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03 Nov 2021, 8:04 am

The Grand Inquisitor wrote:
What if my "happiness stores" aren't actually depleted at all, and I can experience happiness, but the things that could bring me happiness are out of my reach, and I'm saddened by that?

Then you would have some happy moments.

The Grand Inquisitor wrote:
I guess someone who's feeling down about their loved one being in a long and agonising battle with terminal cancer really just needs to eat their leafy greens and get their vitamin D, right? Then they'll be feeling all better.

That's exactly right. To feel better, to be able to have some happy moments even in darkest times, to feel and to be able to share love, hope, warmth, peace one needs to have enough "happiness" in their stores for two people.



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03 Nov 2021, 9:06 am

If it really is so simple to feel happiness even in the darkest times, How come the medical & pharmaceutical industry has not figured it out with a 100% success rate :?: I've known more than a few people with sever depression who have a healthy diet, go out regularly & interact with others, & stay active but were still very depressed due to bad life circumstances &/or because they were single & lonely. Some of those people have tried most of the available anti-depressants & tried counseling but still were still depressed. Some of them got very lucky & their circumstances changed for the better somehow & they quit being depressed after being depressed for a very long time. I've known a case of two depressed people who ended up getting into a relationship with each other & they both quit being depressed after a while. Knowing they had a partner who wanted to be with em & accepted em as they currently were, helped them both feel better about things.


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03 Nov 2021, 10:13 am

smartHulk wrote:
The Grand Inquisitor wrote:
What if my "happiness stores" aren't actually depleted at all, and I can experience happiness, but the things that could bring me happiness are out of my reach, and I'm saddened by that?

Then you would have some happy moments.

I do, sometimes. But I'm also very bothered about my lack of love life, and that makes those happier moments harder to come by.

smartHulk wrote:
The Grand Inquisitor wrote:
I guess someone who's feeling down about their loved one being in a long and agonising battle with terminal cancer really just needs to eat their leafy greens and get their vitamin D, right? Then they'll be feeling all better.

That's exactly right. To feel better, to be able to have some happy moments even in darkest times, to feel and to be able to share love, hope, warmth, peace one needs to have enough "happiness" in their stores for two people.

I'm sorry, I just don't buy it that those lifestyle changes would significantly change the emotional impact of losing a loved one. If somebody I cared about was dying, that fact would dominate my thoughts and continually upset me, like the most major problems I have in life do, unless and until I can figure out a solution. Eating well and exercising wouldn't stop me from being sad that someone I care about is dying.



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03 Nov 2021, 10:42 am

nick007 wrote:
If it really is so simple to feel happiness even in the darkest times, How come the medical & pharmaceutical industry has not figured it out with a 100% success rate :?:

Because industry means profitable products, not 100% success rate. It doesn't make sense to offer you a free solution while they can profit from your condition indefinitely. Medical industry can profit from selling you inefficient "light therapy lamp" as intervention for seasonal depression and they do, but they can't profit from giving you advise to spend 30 minutes in natural sunlight even on overcast days for free. Pharmaceutical industry can profit from selling you food supplements and vitamins and they do, but they can't profit from giving you advise to make simple healthier choices when picking your food. Mental health industry can profit from offering you "motion therapy" or "dance therapy" and they do, but they can't profit from giving you advise to exercise every morning in your bedroom for free.



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03 Nov 2021, 11:09 am

The Grand Inquisitor wrote:
smartHulk wrote:
The Grand Inquisitor wrote:
What if my "happiness stores" aren't actually depleted at all, and I can experience happiness, but the things that could bring me happiness are out of my reach, and I'm saddened by that?

Then you would have some happy moments.

I do, sometimes. But I'm also very bothered about my lack of love life, and that makes those happier moments harder to come by.

This is great! It means your "happiness stores" are not completely depleted, but very-very low. Replenishing these stores would make those happier moments both easier to come by and to notice. Some of these happy moments would lead you to love!

The Grand Inquisitor wrote:
smartHulk wrote:
The Grand Inquisitor wrote:
I guess someone who's feeling down about their loved one being in a long and agonising battle with terminal cancer really just needs to eat their leafy greens and get their vitamin D, right? Then they'll be feeling all better.

That's exactly right. To feel better, to be able to have some happy moments even in darkest times, to feel and to be able to share love, hope, warmth, peace one needs to have enough "happiness" in their stores for two people.

I'm sorry, I just don't buy it that those lifestyle changes would significantly change the emotional impact of losing a loved one. If somebody I cared about was dying, that fact would dominate my thoughts and continually upset me, like the most major problems I have in life do, unless and until I can figure out a solution. Eating well and exercising wouldn't stop me from being sad that someone I care about is dying.

Human emotions are much more complex and nuanced than linear scale of "sad-happy". Yes, having your "happiness stores" full can't stop you from being sad when you are grieving, but it would be a very different, "happy", shade of grief, even when someone you care about is dying you can revisit some happy moments of your life together, share memories that would make you both smile through pain. This is very different from deeply "unhappy" shade of grief filled with bitterness, despair and regret.



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06 Nov 2021, 3:13 am

nick007 wrote:
I know from my own personal experience that a decent romantic relationship can sometimes make people happier & be a very positive influence on a person's life. It is not like that for everyone of course & I am not claiming that it is. Insisting that every person needs to be happy on their own before a romantic relationship can ever make them happier is invalidating my own experiences.

If I may...

Do you recognize that there is a reason that for that instance that people needs/should be happy one their own before a romantic relationship? It's really not a matter of 'one size fits all' method for curing depression or what have you (I agree with you that when it comes to depression what works for one may not for another). It's is more about what is healthier. Often time when we (humans) are not of healthy/balanced mind/emotion often actually gravitate toward others who are also not. (Or in cases where a person has suffered abuse , they may find themselves with someone else that is reminiscent of the person that inflicted the abuse). This of course, more often than not, is going to lead to a problematic relationship. Then even if a person was to get together with someone that is healthier, because of their own lack of mental health they may end up unintentionally bringing harm to the other. This is why its recommended to learn to be good within yourself before going after a relationship, because the likely hood of a relationship being stable and healthy also greatly rises when a person is stable and healthy themselves.

From what I read of what you said about your experience, you were very lucky to have it work out the way that it did. Then you did what the best thing you could have; you followed up by using the 'happier feelings' to further improve yourself. It worked out for you, and that is great but it's not something that is probably going to happen for most people. I myself got into my first relationship similarly as you and I did start to get better because of it. But things are never so simple; in getting better I became aware of how bad he and I were for each other. And that certain mistakes were made early on was because of my...our lack of mental/emotional health. So because of my personal experience(and what I've seen of other peoples screwy relationships), I will always recommend people do what they can to be 'happy' with themselves before getting intimately involved with others. You were very lucky to find what you did.

The Grand Inquisitor wrote:
I'm sorry, I just don't buy it that those lifestyle changes would significantly change the emotional impact of losing a loved one. If somebody I cared about was dying, that fact would dominate my thoughts and continually upset me, like the most major problems I have in life do, unless and until I can figure out a solution. Eating well and exercising wouldn't stop me from being sad that someone I care about is dying.

It's a little bit complicated. I guess first off it should be said that there is a difference of feeling depressed and having depression. Depressed feelings from grief is typically considered a normal temporary thing and will actually slowly 'lighten' with time. Not that you stop being sad, just that it doesn't take up your whole day. However if the grief depression goes on too heavy and for too long then we are looking at it transforming into a clinical depression and that is a different beast. But this is what makes a claim that a person isn't/can't have depression from being lonely bull crap.

The lifestyle changes that are mentioned in the OP are probably NOT going to FIX grief depression nor a clinical depression trigger by the loss, but it WILL help. If it did completely erase your sadness at a loss, that'd be pretty dang abnormal. The things listed are things that help you regulate your body and will increase production of the "feel good" neurotransmitters. In the case of serotonin, the 'feel good' extend further than the brain but to other places of the body, particularly the gut. So it is something that affects the entire body not just your brain. A way to think of it is, if you have little to no physical strength and then you have to stack 100 bales of hay, you're probably going to feel like dying pretty quickly. But if you spend time building your muscles regularly, and then you stack 100 bales of hay you're going to have an easier time doing it, right? Living healthy (doing the things on the list) does the same kind of thing for your internal function. It helps to bolster you to deal with the low times easier, and have you be stuck in them for a shorter time.

Now a problem with the OP's help list is that it doesn't address the psychological factors. For some people it might fix their depression, but in the case of people being depressed because they have been alone/single its likely a bit more involved. Brain chemistry imbalances, hormones, circadian rhythm disruptions, genetics, trauma, a history of alcohol/drug use, certain medications, and psycho social factors(such as external causes that lead to feelings of isolation, stress, and loneliness) are all possible causes for depression. The four things listed will help with all of these but as I stated before, it's not likely to fix them (all), because human beings are not computers and depression is not simple/the same for everyone nor linear.

There also seems to be some sort of suggestion where someone that has depression or that is feeling depressed is just some kind of sad moldy potato all of the time. Yes there are some that are like that but, even suicidal people are capable of 'up' moments. Depression takes place at different levels and forms. What is coined as Smiling Depression is an example of a different from the classic expectation of what depression looks and functions like. Someone with this kind of depression may very well be able to answer yes to the four questions but of course is still suffering. And I can attest that in the past I have been able to answer yes to them, but was still dealing with depression and still got b-slapped by it when I suffered a heartbreak.


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