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Twilightprincess
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03 Sep 2022, 8:19 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
It depends. For years, we weren’t even living on $17,000 per year. We didn’t have $1200 per month for the two of us up to a year ago.


We didn't either. We still don't have $1200 disposable income. It was all debt.

I wasn’t referring to disposable income. For years, we were living on less than $900 per month.

We got food stamps and housing assistance, though.


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CockneyRebel
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03 Sep 2022, 8:22 pm

There are woksters having sex strikes in Texas.


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IsabellaLinton
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03 Sep 2022, 8:25 pm

You've been a great mother on that budget.
I know it hasn't been easy for you.

I didn't get food stamps or housing, but the father cost me more than I made in legal fees.
I didn't have any disposable income really.
I'm sure you didn't either.



auntblabby
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03 Sep 2022, 8:27 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
beautiful people want other beautiful people. smart people want other smart people. accomplished folks want other accomplished folks. hardly anybody wants a plain joe or jane who lacks shiny things in their being.


Good thing I'm just an everyday outlier with no shiny things in my being, seeking same.

but you're extremely intelligent. 8)


You'd be surprised blabbs.
I'm really not interested in anyone's intelligence.
I don't care whether a person is book smart or not, and I don't do shiny things.

if you don't mind then, what DO you want?



Twilightprincess
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03 Sep 2022, 8:31 pm

There was no disposable income. I had to go to the food bank sometimes. We ate a lot of rice. I bought clothes from thrift stores when they had sales.

Even now, I won’t be spending $17,000 on my kid every year. I couldn’t afford it.


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IsabellaLinton
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03 Sep 2022, 8:37 pm

auntblabby wrote:

if you don't mind then, what DO you want?




I have nothing against intelligence, but it's not important.
I don't want to sit around talking about books and philosophers all day.
That's my own thing and they don't need to be the same as me.
If they were exactly like me it would be pretty boring.
(In my experience, a lot of academic men are boring af, too.)

My point is that I'm a down-to-earth person and that's what I like.
Similar taste in music would matter more to me than book smarts.
Music is shared so it would be hard not to like their music.



CockneyRebel
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03 Sep 2022, 9:12 pm

I think that the overturning of Roe vs Wade is the best thing that's happened to America. People are thinking twice before they have sex.


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IsabellaLinton
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03 Sep 2022, 9:15 pm

CockneyRebel wrote:
I think that the overturning of Roe vs Wade is the best thing that's happened to America. People are thinking twice before they have sex.


I don't disagree with you.
I hate that RvW was overturned.
I don't think it's good in terms of human rights, but I think it's good for couples to think twice.



ironpony
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04 Sep 2022, 3:05 am

CockneyRebel wrote:
There are woksters having sex strikes in Texas.


Well why is the woke people having sex strikes? Don't non-woke people worry about getting pregnant as well?



Nades
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04 Sep 2022, 7:09 am

Is there a breakdown as to where the 17k a year goes on each child? I often hear high numbers but never see any breakdowns. Nearly 50 a day seems a bit steep for me to believe.



IsabellaLinton
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04 Sep 2022, 8:01 am

Nades wrote:
Is there a breakdown as to where the 17k a year goes on each child? I often hear high numbers but never see any breakdowns. Nearly 50 a day seems a bit steep for me to believe.


Having been through the family court system for 25 years I can give a bit of insight here.
Courts consider all of the following to be reasonable, applicable expenses when raising a child.
All of these are taken into consideration (and likely more, but I can't remember everything).

- Rent or mortgage increase: Giving the child their own bedroom in a safe neighbourhood for children
Any additional housing costs above what you would pay for a bachelor / basement apartment for yourself.

- Home utility costs (heat, water, electricity, gas) for the larger home as well as their own consumption

- Their portion of yearly land taxes on the home if applicable

- Sales taxes on every product you buy for them

- Income tax that you pay as a result of your income (salary required to maintain home)

- All items from birth to age 18 (and longer if they're disabled or in college / university)
That includes all baby stuff even if it's second hand, nappies, car seats, etc. as required by law

- Mother's time off work during pregnancy and postpartum

- Daycare at a registered provider

- Daycare before school and after school for children ages 5-12 at a registered provider (if parents working)

- Healthcare insurance premiums and health-related expenses including dental and orthodonture

- All medications for the child

- Healthcare costs for the mother (including fertility doctors, pregnancy, OBs, birth, postpartum, mental health)

- Transportation costs to get them to / from school, activities, and part-time jobs (buying a family car, car insurance, gasoline, buses, etc.)

- Special expenses for the child's developmental needs: wheelchairs, respite care, summer camps if parents work, swimming lessons (lifesaving skill), extracurricular interests and lessons (sports, arts, music, etc.)

- A mobile phone for the child's safety (I believe it's after age 12)

- Access to the internet (additional consumption e.g., having unlimited use or a better signal)

- All clothing for 18+ years and the cost of washing that clothing (the hot water etc.)

- Grooming (haircuts, personal hygiene products)

- School uniforms, lunches, tuition fees, books for school, school supplies

- Tuition for college or university including room and board if applicable

- All food they ever eat starting with breast pumps for mothers, baby bottles, pacifiers

- Legal fees related to divorce / child custody matters

Certainly not all families need or do all of this, but it's all considered reasonable expenses and protected by law for the healthy / normal development of children.

Imagine having a boarder move into your home and you have to pay their share of additional expenses for 18+ years.



Nades
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04 Sep 2022, 8:21 am

IsabellaLinton wrote:
Nades wrote:
Is there a breakdown as to where the 17k a year goes on each child? I often hear high numbers but never see any breakdowns. Nearly 50 a day seems a bit steep for me to believe.


Having been through the family court system for 25 years I can give a bit of insight here.
Courts consider all of the following to be reasonable, applicable expenses when raising a child.
All of these are taken into consideration (and likely more, but I can't remember everything).

- Rent or mortgage increase: Giving the child their own bedroom in a safe neighbourhood for children
Any additional housing costs above what you would pay for a bachelor / basement apartment for yourself.

- Home utility costs (heat, water, electricity, gas) for the larger home as well as their own consumption

- Their portion of yearly land taxes on the home if applicable

- Sales taxes on every product you buy for them

- Income tax that you pay as a result of your income (salary required to maintain home)

- All items from birth to age 18 (and longer if they're disabled or in college / university)
That includes all baby stuff even if it's second hand, nappies, car seats, etc. as required by law

- Mother's time off work during pregnancy and postpartum

- Daycare at a registered provider

- Daycare before school and after school for children ages 5-12 at a registered provider (if parents working)

- Healthcare insurance premiums and health-related expenses including dental and orthodonture

- All medications for the child

- Healthcare costs for the mother (including fertility doctors, pregnancy, OBs, birth, postpartum, mental health)

- Transportation costs to get them to / from school, activities, and part-time jobs (buying a family car, car insurance, gasoline, buses, etc.)

- Special expenses for the child's developmental needs: wheelchairs, respite care, summer camps if parents work, swimming lessons (lifesaving skill), extracurricular interests and lessons (sports, arts, music, etc.)

- A mobile phone for the child's safety (I believe it's after age 12)

- Access to the internet (additional consumption e.g., having unlimited use or a better signal)

- All clothing for 18+ years and the cost of washing that clothing (the hot water etc.)

- Grooming (haircuts, personal hygiene products)

- School uniforms, lunches, tuition fees, books for school, school supplies

- Tuition for college or university including room and board if applicable

- All food they ever eat starting with breast pumps for mothers, baby bottles, pacifiers

- Legal fees related to divorce / child custody matters

Certainly not all families need or do all of this, but it's all considered reasonable expenses and protected by law for the healthy / normal development of children.

Imagine having a boarder move into your home and you have to pay their share of additional expenses for 18+ years.


The lions share of those expenses sound like mixed expenses that single childless people and childless couples have to pay regardless. I still don't see how an extra room will invite those addition costs.

In the UK they also came up with 300k to raise a child which is at serious odds with the average UK salary being about 31k.

Time off work is expected for one of the partners too I guess. Nothing has changed there. I wouldn't add up lost income as a direct expense though.



IsabellaLinton
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04 Sep 2022, 8:33 am

Nades wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
Nades wrote:
Is there a breakdown as to where the 17k a year goes on each child? I often hear high numbers but never see any breakdowns. Nearly 50 a day seems a bit steep for me to believe.


Having been through the family court system for 25 years I can give a bit of insight here.
Courts consider all of the following to be reasonable, applicable expenses when raising a child.
All of these are taken into consideration (and likely more, but I can't remember everything).

- Rent or mortgage increase: Giving the child their own bedroom in a safe neighbourhood for children
Any additional housing costs above what you would pay for a bachelor / basement apartment for yourself.

- Home utility costs (heat, water, electricity, gas) for the larger home as well as their own consumption

- Their portion of yearly land taxes on the home if applicable

- Sales taxes on every product you buy for them

- Income tax that you pay as a result of your income (salary required to maintain home)

- All items from birth to age 18 (and longer if they're disabled or in college / university)
That includes all baby stuff even if it's second hand, nappies, car seats, etc. as required by law

- Mother's time off work during pregnancy and postpartum

- Daycare at a registered provider

- Daycare before school and after school for children ages 5-12 at a registered provider (if parents working)

- Healthcare insurance premiums and health-related expenses including dental and orthodonture

- All medications for the child

- Healthcare costs for the mother (including fertility doctors, pregnancy, OBs, birth, postpartum, mental health)

- Transportation costs to get them to / from school, activities, and part-time jobs (buying a family car, car insurance, gasoline, buses, etc.)

- Special expenses for the child's developmental needs: wheelchairs, respite care, summer camps if parents work, swimming lessons (lifesaving skill), extracurricular interests and lessons (sports, arts, music, etc.)

- A mobile phone for the child's safety (I believe it's after age 12)

- Access to the internet (additional consumption e.g., having unlimited use or a better signal)

- All clothing for 18+ years and the cost of washing that clothing (the hot water etc.)

- Grooming (haircuts, personal hygiene products)

- School uniforms, lunches, tuition fees, books for school, school supplies

- Tuition for college or university including room and board if applicable

- All food they ever eat starting with breast pumps for mothers, baby bottles, pacifiers

- Legal fees related to divorce / child custody matters

Certainly not all families need or do all of this, but it's all considered reasonable expenses and protected by law for the healthy / normal development of children.

Imagine having a boarder move into your home and you have to pay their share of additional expenses for 18+ years.


The lions share of those expenses sound like mixed expenses that single childless people and childless couples have to pay regardless. I still don't see how an extra room will invite those addition costs.

In the UK they also came up with 300k to raise a child which is at serious odds with the average UK salary being about 31k.


Yes, to an extent some of them are mixed. That's why they look at what the expense is above what you'd pay for accommodations without children. I know that some couples / single people already own a home or car before having children, but once the child comes along those expenses are considered part of the child's welfare. For example I already owned a home prior to having children, but I had chosen a home that was near the best primary school in our area and near the grandparents. If I sold my house and got a 2-bedroom apartment it would have cost more per month than maintaining my home. If I didn't have kids at all I would sell my house and go live with my mother (likely for free), or live in a much smaller place somewhere far away from the good schools.

I'm not saying that all those costs matter to me or I expect anyone to help me pay them, but that's how the court looks at children's needs and what is reasonable for kids in today's day and age.



Diverse4Me
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06 Sep 2022, 7:03 am

How do you think Aspie/ASD diagnoses fit in?

I was reading in AutiBlog recently "autistic participants were 7.59 times more likely to express gender variance, and participants with ADHD were 6.64 times more likely to express gender variance." Strang, 2014

Non-binary people who identify with AutiGender and maybe links to late diagnosis, got me thinking about asexual people too, and if that is linked in at all...

And maybe acceptance of ACE's within wider community is also leading to change, or maybe people are being more honest and open about sexuality?

Of course I know one Autie Ace who would skew those numbers because they work in the sex industry, and they know other workers also on the spectrum. Can't remember if we spoke about ACE stuff in that context. They are married platonically to another ACE not in that industry.

back to this though

Nades wrote:
Is there a breakdown as to where the 17k a year goes on each child? I often hear high numbers but never see any breakdowns. Nearly 50 a day seems a bit steep for me to believe.


Lots of breakdowns out there, as well as comparisons for different incomes and families. Just not in average media article cos that is boring, right?

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/p ... merica.asp
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_raising_a_child
https://www.globelifeinsurance.com/the- ... he-us.html

And of course these don't all agree precisely :)

this image is interesting too:

Image


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Nades
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06 Sep 2022, 9:36 am

Diverse4Me wrote:
How do you think Aspie/ASD diagnoses fit in?

I was reading in AutiBlog recently "autistic participants were 7.59 times more likely to express gender variance, and participants with ADHD were 6.64 times more likely to express gender variance." Strang, 2014

Non-binary people who identify with AutiGender and maybe links to late diagnosis, got me thinking about asexual people too, and if that is linked in at all...

And maybe acceptance of ACE's within wider community is also leading to change, or maybe people are being more honest and open about sexuality?

Of course I know one Autie Ace who would skew those numbers because they work in the sex industry, and they know other workers also on the spectrum. Can't remember if we spoke about ACE stuff in that context. They are married platonically to another ACE not in that industry.

back to this though

Nades wrote:
Is there a breakdown as to where the 17k a year goes on each child? I often hear high numbers but never see any breakdowns. Nearly 50 a day seems a bit steep for me to believe.


Lots of breakdowns out there, as well as comparisons for different incomes and families. Just not in average media article cos that is boring, right?

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/p ... merica.asp
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_raising_a_child
https://www.globelifeinsurance.com/the- ... he-us.html

And of course these don't all agree precisely :)

this image is interesting too:

Image



I have an issue with the housing and transport costs being included in the figures. They seem over exaggerated.



IsabellaLinton
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06 Sep 2022, 9:44 am

Children don't require housing or transportation? :scratch:

Another thing I forgot on my list from court was the cost of monthly Life Insurance premiums for parents, and the cost of having a Will / Power of Attorney etc., as well as a Will for children (particularly relevant if they are disabled).