Being judged for one isolated incident in a distant past

Page 4 of 4 [ 55 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4

QFT
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 27 Jun 2019
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,456

08 Nov 2022, 8:31 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
You think she shouldn't have her own goals in life


Thats so not true. Whenever I had girlfriends I kept trying to convince them to go to university. And by the way they were all my age, they just chose not to go to university for whatever reason, and I was trying to convince them that better late than never.

Now I do realize that this can be interpretted as not respecting their goals and forcing my own goals on them instead -- at least thats how a lot of them interpretted it. But the point is that this is not my intention. If you take a sexist person, they would typically be against women with education. But in my case I am for it.

If you say that I am sexist in a sense that I say "a man knows better whats good for a woman", thats not the case either. I remember my mom had a friend (who was a man) who was a really good musician, who switched from math to music right before finishing his math thesis. When I learned about that, I tried to convince him to go finish his math thesis. My mom thought it was silly, and cited the same reasons as my ex-s cited when I was trying to convince them to go to school. Well, to both mine and my mom's surprise, he actually got ahold of his former math advisor and was going to finish the thesis, despite the fact that it was over a decade since he dropped out. But, unfortunately, he got into a car accident and died, so thats what stopped him from finishing the thesis.

So, as you see, I suggest both to men and to women to go to school. Similarly, if I were to learn that a man had ECT I would tell a man not to have it, too. So its not that I know better than a woman. Its more like when I see people of either gender doing something other than what I would do, I picture myself in their shoes and imagine how I would regret this decision some time down the line, so I am trying to save them from having regrets I would have had if I were them.

With women I do that a lot more than with men, but thats only because women are the ones whom I date, and I normally don't have time to get to know things about someone's life unless it is directly related to my life (such as through dating). But when I hear it by accident, then I would push my opinion, as the above advice illustrates.

Usually people dismiss my opinions, which goes back to my being too pushy and/or not being respected. But in few cases when they hear them out they are grateful. Like that musician was one example. The other example is a different friend of my mom's, who is a woman (my mom's age). So she mentioned how she would burn old Soviet photos and I kept pushing her not to. She was unconvinced. But later on, as she disgested what I was saying, she agreed not to burn them. And thanked me for that.

But then I also have examples of people that didn't thank me. Like one of my ex-s noticed that she is similar to me, and decided to test for Asperger. It turned out she had it. The other ex, after I talked about my own Jewishness, decided to look into her own genealogy, and learned she is 3/4 Jewish. And then there was another girl, who wasn't Jewish, who became Messianic under my influence. But all three of them got mad at me for other reasons, to the point that they are no longer in the speaking terms with me. And none of them ever remember that it was me who made them learn those things I just mentioned.

Which goes back to leadership question. Is it that I can't lead, or is it that people don't respect me enough to ever want me to lead -- or even want to acknowledge an incident of my leadership if it occurred?

goldfish21 wrote:
You suggest she shouldn't think this or that about you, that she shouldn't have her own opinions or judgements of you.


Thats because it personally affects me, as it puts me into a box. Like the example in the OP would imply that I am inherently incapable of changing. After all, since she judged me for what I did a year ago, it means I am by default the same as in the past. Well, this affects me, does it not.

Also let me point out this. On the one hand, you are saying she is free to have her own opinion of me. Yet on the other hand you are saying I am not free to have racist beliefs. So that seems like a double standard. If you say her opinion of me is "her" belief that is her business, wouldn't it also imply that racists views are "my" beliefs that are my business? Or if you say that my racist views somehow affect people of those races, wouldn't you also then say that her opinions of me affect me, too?

I for one think that personal opinions are more hurtful than some racial views at large. If someone thinks badly about Russians in light of the war at Ukraine, or about Jews in light of allegidly having Jews in power (regardless of to what extend its true), or about Christians due to Donald Trump, I don't take it personally. Because it has nothing to do with me as a person. But the interactions I encounter where they reject me as a person, THAT I take personally.

By the same token, if a woman were to say she doesn't want to date Russians or Christians or Jews, I won't be upset: there are plenty of other women who do date those groups. But when it becomes personal about just me, THATS what upsets me.

goldfish21 wrote:
or criteria for a partner that's compatible with her,


I am not questioning her criteria, I am questioning her assertion that I don't meet her criteria. Lets break it down:

1) She wants her partner to have Quality X

2) She doesn't think I have Quality X

3) Therefore, she doesn't want to date me

I don't challenge her in "1". I challenge her in "2". After all, "1" is the statement about her, and she knows herself better than me. But "2" is the statement about me, and I know myself better than her. So, while I trust her with regards to "1", I wish she could trust me with regards to "2", yet she doesn't trust me in this regard.

Here is one example. Back in 2005, a girl rejected me because my mom shelters me which means that I want her to shelter me too, while she wants someone independent. But guess what: I don't want her to shelter me! In fact, the biggest thing that bothers me about my mom is that my mom shelters me, which is THE main reason why I am glad I am in a different state than her. So why on earth would I want another mom?

Now, lets break it down in terms of 1 and 2. So the assertion "1" is that she wants someone independent. I never questioned that assertion. Assertion 2 is presumably that I am not independent. Well, *that* is the assertion that I questioned. Because you see, I agreed with her that IF I were to require sheltering, she shouldn't date me. But the part I disagreed with her is the part where she ASSUMED I require sheltering, when I DON"T. In other words, she is free to decide not to date the guys that require sheltering. My point is that I am not one of them!

Incidentally, isn't it ironic that the assertion of the girl in 2005 is the opposite to the assertion of the girl in 2022? The former said I like to be controlled, the latter said I am too controlling. But maybe its neither of the two. Maybe its just that my Asperger is some kind of amplifier that makes rather small qualities in either direction appear like huge ones?

goldfish21 wrote:
that wanting to relocate is just some sort of suggestion vs. what she wants out of life.


Again, if she were to bring up wanting to relocate BEFORE any other issues came up, I would have believed her and would have respected that decision. But the fact that it was only brought up AFTER other issues, THATS what made me think it was just an excuse. Because my life is full of examples of people making excuses about issues they otherwise don't care about until I mess up something ELSE.

I mean lets put it this way. When I was a teenager I was also taking things to the face value. So if I was told its the reason X, Y and Z, I would of thought, yes, that is X, Y and Z, full stop. But throughout my adult life, my experience have taught me that sometimes people make up other reasons if I don't accept the reasons they originally brought up. And that life experience is what causes me to think in those terms.

Also I don't simply "decide" what is important for what person. I look at signs. For example, I am sure that one of the major reasons G girl broke up with me back in 2014 is that I use cuss words and I went to a party that one time. Now, if any other girl were to tell me that this is the reason she broke up with me, I would say its an excuse since others do that a lot more than me. But the G girl was raised in a very conservative southern baptist family, and it seemed like those are the things she singled out as huge no-no right from the start. So because this was her message all along and she was consistent with that, thats why I decided that this is the reason she broke up with me --even though she never told me that was the case (she refused telling me her reasons).

Again, if any other girl says she breaks up with me because I use cuss words, I would say "no, its only an excuse". But with G girl its true.

On the other hand, what G girl is currently telling me is that she broke up with me because I don't eat pork and she eats pork. THAT I think is an excuse. Because she knew from get-go that I don't eat pork. So it just makes no sense that she would date me for 2 years and then break up with me over something that she knew all along. But as far as cussing its different because I actually tried not to cuss in front of her the whole time but then she became nitpickish about it, so I am almost certain I just slipped here and there.

But if I were to date another girl, then I can easily imagine a situation where I would believe that my not eating pork is a bigger reason for breakup than cuss words. I just don't believe thats the case with G-girl since it contradicts the signals I was getting from her.

goldfish21 wrote:
nor is it a display of being attracted to a person - only a display of how you want to control someone to make them who you want them to be for you.


Thats the kind of dichotomy I don't get. If I don't like the person, what is even the purpose of controlling them? Now, if by "attracted" you mean strictly physically attracted, then yes I have been with women I am not physically attracted to. But still: I was liking them in *some* way. I just don't get how they alleged that I weren't liking them at all. If I weren't liking them I wouldn't bother putting all this time into arguing with them, would I?

goldfish21 wrote:
Respect is earned. If you're not respected you need to reflect on your own behaviours and think about why you're not shown respect and how you can improve yourself and your interactions with others until you are respected.


The problem is that they aren't telling me WHICH behaviors. Kind of like when you said I don't have leadership qualities, you didn't say which ones.

I realize that others think that if it is the list of behaviors its the trees, and they don't want to miss forest for the trees. But if they are refusing to name the behaviors, then what am I supposed to do? Its like saying "admit you are an as*hole, there is nothing you can do about being an as*hole, just admit that you are".

goldfish21 wrote:
IMO, you have a LOT of self improvement to do before you're ready to enter a relationship with anyone.. and if you're unwilling or unable to do a whole lot of that, then my suggestion is that you triple down on your love of physics and accept your studies, your work, and your goals as your partner(s) through this life to keep you company and give you purpose.


I would certainly rather do self improvement than be single my whole life. I just wish people could tell me WHAT to improve.

By the way, David Duke was successful with women. This alone shows that racism is not the main thing.



Minder
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

Joined: 29 Feb 2016
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 151

08 Nov 2022, 9:27 pm

QFT wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
You think she shouldn't have her own goals in life


Thats so not true. Whenever I had girlfriends I kept trying to convince them to go to university. And by the way they were all my age, they just chose not to go to university for whatever reason, and I was trying to convince them that better late than never.

Now I do realize that this can be interpretted as not respecting their goals and forcing my own goals on them instead -- at least thats how a lot of them interpretted it. But the point is that this is not my intention. If you take a sexist person, they would typically be against women with education. But in my case I am for it.

If you say that I am sexist in a sense that I say "a man knows better whats good for a woman", thats not the case either. I remember my mom had a friend (who was a man) who was a really good musician, who switched from math to music right before finishing his math thesis. When I learned about that, I tried to convince him to go finish his math thesis. My mom thought it was silly, and cited the same reasons as my ex-s cited when I was trying to convince them to go to school. Well, to both mine and my mom's surprise, he actually got ahold of his former math advisor and was going to finish the thesis, despite the fact that it was over a decade since he dropped out. But, unfortunately, he got into a car accident and died, so thats what stopped him from finishing the thesis.

So, as you see, I suggest both to men and to women to go to school. Similarly, if I were to learn that a man had ECT I would tell a man not to have it, too. So its not that I know better than a woman. Its more like when I see people of either gender doing something other than what I would do, I picture myself in their shoes and imagine how I would regret this decision some time down the line, so I am trying to save them from having regrets I would have had if I were them.

With women I do that a lot more than with men, but thats only because women are the ones whom I date, and I normally don't have time to get to know things about someone's life unless it is directly related to my life (such as through dating). But when I hear it by accident, then I would push my opinion, as the above advice illustrates.

Usually people dismiss my opinions, which goes back to my being too pushy and/or not being respected. But in few cases when they hear them out they are grateful. Like that musician was one example. The other example is a different friend of my mom's, who is a woman (my mom's age). So she mentioned how she would burn old Soviet photos and I kept pushing her not to. She was unconvinced. But later on, as she disgested what I was saying, she agreed not to burn them. And thanked me for that.

But then I also have examples of people that didn't thank me. Like one of my ex-s noticed that she is similar to me, and decided to test for Asperger. It turned out she had it. The other ex, after I talked about my own Jewishness, decided to look into her own genealogy, and learned she is 3/4 Jewish. And then there was another girl, who wasn't Jewish, who became Messianic under my influence. But all three of them got mad at me for other reasons, to the point that they are no longer in the speaking terms with me. And none of them ever remember that it was me who made them learn those things I just mentioned.

Which goes back to leadership question. Is it that I can't lead, or is it that people don't respect me enough to ever want me to lead -- or even want to acknowledge an incident of my leadership if it occurred?


I'm going to focus on this part.

In being so insistent on a woman going to university, you're not respecting her choice whether or not to go. Yes, you think women have a place in education, and that's good! However, this is only meaningful if the woman chooses. I don't know why these women didn't want to go to university, but it sounds like they chose not to and you have to respect that.

If a woman not going to university is a deal breaker for you, fine. You don't have to date her. But don't hector her about it if she's made it clear that's not what she wants to do.

Basically, it seems like you have a pretty rigid criteria for a partner. And that's okay. That's your right. But if so, you have to accept that you'll have fewer partners to choose from. Likewise, you have to accept that someone might not meet that criteria, and if so, just move on. Don't keep trying to make them meet that criteria.

I once knew someone who kept giving me advice in an extremely tiring and hectoring way. He'd never stop talking about it. The advice wasn't necessarily bad (sometimes it was, not always), but I became very frustrated with him. Why? Because he never bothered to learn what interested me or what I actually wanted from life. Instead, he assumed that everything that had worked out well for him would also work out well for me, even though he and I were very different people. After a while, I started to resent him because he treated me like clay to be molded, not as an adult human with his own needs and interests.

In cases like these, you have to learn to step back and let people make their choices, and to respect their decisions. If you can't respect the decision, then either move on or learn to put up with it.



QFT
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 27 Jun 2019
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,456

09 Nov 2022, 5:25 am

Minder wrote:
I once knew someone who kept giving me advice in an extremely tiring and hectoring way. He'd never stop talking about it. The advice wasn't necessarily bad (sometimes it was, not always), but I became very frustrated with him. Why? Because he never bothered to learn what interested me or what I actually wanted from life. Instead, he assumed that everything that had worked out well for him would also work out well for me, even though he and I were very different people. After a while, I started to resent him because he treated me like clay to be molded, not as an adult human with his own needs and interests.


Lets get facts straight. Are you saying you are gay and he was your partner, or are you saying you are straight and he was a best friend?

I am not making assumptions thats why I ask. Just tell me which it is and I will take your word for it.



Minder
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

Joined: 29 Feb 2016
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 151

09 Nov 2022, 11:14 am

QFT wrote:
Minder wrote:
I once knew someone who kept giving me advice in an extremely tiring and hectoring way. He'd never stop talking about it. The advice wasn't necessarily bad (sometimes it was, not always), but I became very frustrated with him. Why? Because he never bothered to learn what interested me or what I actually wanted from life. Instead, he assumed that everything that had worked out well for him would also work out well for me, even though he and I were very different people. After a while, I started to resent him because he treated me like clay to be molded, not as an adult human with his own needs and interests.


Lets get facts straight. Are you saying you are gay and he was your partner, or are you saying you are straight and he was a best friend?

I am not making assumptions thats why I ask. Just tell me which it is and I will take your word for it.


I'm not gay (neither was he). Nor was he a friend, exactly. He was a neighbor with whom I had a lot of interaction and a friend of my parents'.

However, who he was didn't really matter. If he'd been a romantic partner or a best friend, I'd have also gotten frustrated. The point is that if you treat someone like clay to be molded, they will very likely resent you regardless of your intents. This is the point of my message.



QFT
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 27 Jun 2019
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,456

09 Nov 2022, 11:29 am

Minder wrote:
I'm not gay (neither was he). Nor was he a friend, exactly. He was a neighbor with whom I had a lot of interaction and a friend of my parents'.


Okay, thanks for clarifying.

So how did you end the interaction with your neighbor? Did you basically change the place you live? Or are you still living next to him and are just shunning him?

Minder wrote:
However, who he was didn't really matter. If he'd been a romantic partner or a best friend, I'd have also gotten frustrated. The point is that if you treat someone like clay to be molded, they will very likely resent you regardless of your intents. This is the point of my message.


I see your point. In fact thats the main reason I resented my parents, as well as the girl I dated back in 2007-2009 (the one whose name starts with J). I didn't like being told what to do.

I guess, logically, I should realize that maybe others see me the same way I was seeing them. I guess the reason I don't realize those things is that

a) My social status is lower than theirs due to my Asperger, so I am less of a threat

b) To me it seems like the things I make people do are "more obvious" than the things others were making me do.

Although its true that it might be a theory of mind thing. Especially with "b": more obvious to whom? To me, not to them.



Minder
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

Joined: 29 Feb 2016
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 151

09 Nov 2022, 7:38 pm

QFT wrote:
Minder wrote:
I'm not gay (neither was he). Nor was he a friend, exactly. He was a neighbor with whom I had a lot of interaction and a friend of my parents'.


Okay, thanks for clarifying.

So how did you end the interaction with your neighbor? Did you basically change the place you live? Or are you still living next to him and are just shunning him?


I moved. This all happened a pretty long time ago.

Minder wrote:
However, who he was didn't really matter. If he'd been a romantic partner or a best friend, I'd have also gotten frustrated. The point is that if you treat someone like clay to be molded, they will very likely resent you regardless of your intents. This is the point of my message.


I see your point. In fact thats the main reason I resented my parents, as well as the girl I dated back in 2007-2009 (the one whose name starts with J). I didn't like being told what to do.

I guess, logically, I should realize that maybe others see me the same way I was seeing them. I guess the reason I don't realize those things is that

a) My social status is lower than theirs due to my Asperger, so I am less of a threat

b) To me it seems like the things I make people do are "more obvious" than the things others were making me do.

Although its true that it might be a theory of mind thing. Especially with "b": more obvious to whom? To me, not to them.[/quote]

I think you've figured it out. It's fine to give advice, but if it's not wanted, you have to step back. You have more leeway with someone very close to you, but you still need to stop if they make it clear they don't want to do that thing. And then you decide if that's a dealbreaker or not.



nick007
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 May 2010
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 25,901
Location: was Louisiana but now Vermont in the police state called USA

10 Nov 2022, 3:59 pm

QFT wrote:
It feels like what happens is that when people lose patience over one thing, they become less patient with other things. Which is why I feel like its not "the list of 27 things" thats the problem, but rather its whatever thing that started it, thats the problem. The rest of the list is simply the case of them losing patience with me.
That's how my current girlfriend is. When she's in a bad mood she's bothered by things she normally wouldn't be. However she realizes she's moody & like that & 1ce she's calmed down & in a better mood, she's fine & does not hold it against me. I think if R really was like that, she woulda tried to make up with you & apologized or try to explain why she acted out. With other people I find they get bothered by things & keep it to themselves for a while & it just builds & builds & eventually they reach their breaking point & it all comes out at 1ce. After the fight or whatever is over & they've calmed down, they'll blame me for the fight & hold on to that blame & eventually they cant deal with it anymore & will end things. I think that's what happened with R. She reached her breaking point with blaming you & she's done.


It does sound to me like the two of you had some misunderstandings partly due to word usage & understanding of their meaning. Me & my current gf both get confused easily & sometimes mishear, misunderstand, or use the wrong words, & she sometimes also says different words than what she thought she said. We often get confused & while it can be annoying & frustrating at times, we are both mindful that we both have issues. We try to clarify more & explain things differently if we think the other may of misunderstood & we ask each other to explain things in a different way & give em time to think when we suspect a misunderstanding. The issues are worse for her & instead of me getting mad at her, I usually laugh about things aLOT & I laugh at myself as well & so does she so it works :mrgreen: Misunderstandings will happen sometimes for those of us on the spectrum & it's good to make sure that our partners are aware of that & we both try to be accommodating of that possibility.


_________________
"I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem!"
~King Of The Hill


"Hear all, trust nothing"
~Ferengi Rule Of Acquisition #190
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Ru ... cquisition