Why many women dislike socially awkward men

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hurtloam
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08 Oct 2022, 7:27 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
It’s an unfair and FALSE comparison.


Well, it's how people react to us and how we make them feel, so even though it's not nice, I think it's true.



SkinnyElephant
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08 Oct 2022, 9:37 am

Jayo wrote:
I've always had a certain interest in socio-anthropological psychology, despite being more in the technical field... and while I've since moved on from my younger dating "trial and error" days, married with a family and career, it always got me that us male Aspies lacked the "privilege" of others.

A few years before I was diagnosed (in my early twenties), I saw that some young women had this compulsion to "fix" their boyfriend, and their "ailment" was usually aggression, belligerence, or - heaven forbid - narcissistic personality disorder (yeah, good luck fixing THAT one, ladies! :P ) And I wondered, well, I've got some kind of unlabelled ailment that causes me to behave and communicate differently from the vast majority, so why doesn't a girl come along and try to "fix" ME?? And it dawned on me even back then, before I'd heard of Aspergers (which it was at the time), that she felt embarrassed to be seen with me, that I'd never be accepted by her social circle, or that she saw me as "weak" in some way. Even though I had good looks and a good body from working out, and worked in IT with a good salary.

So, I just viscerally knew from an anthro-psych perspective, that I wouldn't be considered a good protector; I was just thin-sliced as a weirdo and perpetual bully victim who could never be a good provider and protector. Even in our modern techy society, we still have some evo-psych remnants in our mammal brains. At least, the NTs do, more than us. :(

So then I did some online research, and get this, I found this comment in one forum from a woman which I found ignorant as hell but could understand why she would say/think this (WARNING: this may upset some folks here based on the apparent invalidation of Aspie struggles) - she basically said that not reading nonverbal cues is a sign of testing boundaries (yeah, WTF, right??) - below:

"First, let’s clarify. There are socially awkward men, and then there are the selectively socially awkward men. The second group are absolute nightmares. They’re the guys who blow past your body language and then “have no idea why you’re upset.” I cut these men zero slack, because no one is that clueless. They’re simply betting on the fact that if they blow past the boundaries enough and ignore more subtle signals, they’ll get what they want because women have been socially conditioned not to give a hard no."

When I saw that, I immediately thought back to when I was 21, that I got behind-the-back comments that I was "passive-aggressive" and didn't respect boundaries. And I thought, wow, I'm not the psycho-rapist type at all!! I was more of what they would call "incel" today, I suppose...but to think that there are women out there who would sooner assume that not reading body language is intentional, than an honest oversight.

But maybe I digress a tad.

When I looked at other comments, they were definitely "right between the eyes" and not sugarcoating...sort of along the same lines as the archetypal nice guys, or short guys, or really skinny guys.

"Because she won't feel safe with a socially awkward guy, that's all.
If he's afraid of social situations, how can he protect and provide for her and her children?

Socially awkward men seem weak and low status. Even they are good looking and earn good money, that's still how it is, because at heart, we are still cavemen evolved to deal with hunter gatherer world. The fact that we now have cars, computers and representative government in some places, doesn't change that fact. We're still cavemen."


Lots of good insights. An aggressive or belligerent man is seen as a thrill. A socially awkward man is (unfortunately) seen as lame.

When I was in high school, a classmate I was interested in flat-out told me it would be bad for her reputation if she dated me.

Once I got out of the high school bubble, I was able to date a fair bit during my 20s (Likely due to my good looks, plus the fact I'm only on the spectrum to a mild degree). Before anyone reading my post gets jealous, however, I should mention: Most relationships I've had have been extremely short-lived. My best guess is the girlfriend loses interest once it becomes apparent there's something off with me.

Even my longest-lasting girlfriend (we dated for months) never introduced me to her friends.

As for not being seen as a provider or protector, you took the words right out of my mouth. Guys on the spectrum, big or small, tend to be the type to avoid street-fights. And even though you make decent money, a lot of us struggle to climb the ladder at work (for the same reasons we struggle socially in general).

Lastly, I'm going to address your comment about selectively socially awkward men. Those men ruin it for the rest of us. We (guys on the spectrum) don't mean to push boundaries; we merely lack the awareness to even realize we're pushing a boundary. But how is the woman supposed to tell the difference between us vs the abusive guys who simply ignore social cues (even though he reads the social cues damn well)?



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08 Oct 2022, 9:52 am

SkinnyElephant wrote:
Guys on the spectrum, big or small, tend to be the type to avoid street-fights.


I didn't even know street fight was a thing in polite society? Now I have two questions:

1) How come the girl I had last summer left me because I told her I punched someone a year ago. When by punching I meant *lightly* so (the reason I said "punched" rather than "tapped", is that I used fist rather than hand, but it was light). Now, if you are saying that NT-s are getting involved in actual *fights* (rather than gestures) and they do so on a regular basis (rather than a year ago), how come their girlfriends don't break up with them over this?

2) Why would street fight start on the first place? Does it mean that NT-s have misunderstandings on a regular basis? Extreme enough to create a fight? If so, then was I wrong when I kept assumign that people misunderstand me "because of my Asperger"?



SkinnyElephant
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08 Oct 2022, 10:54 am

QFT wrote:
SkinnyElephant wrote:
Guys on the spectrum, big or small, tend to be the type to avoid street-fights.


I didn't even know street fight was a thing in polite society? Now I have two questions:

1) How come the girl I had last summer left me because I told her I punched someone a year ago. When by punching I meant *lightly* so (the reason I said "punched" rather than "tapped", is that I used fist rather than hand, but it was light). Now, if you are saying that NT-s are getting involved in actual *fights* (rather than gestures) and they do so on a regular basis (rather than a year ago), how come their girlfriends don't break up with them over this?

2) Why would street fight start on the first place? Does it mean that NT-s have misunderstandings on a regular basis? Extreme enough to create a fight? If so, then was I wrong when I kept assumign that people misunderstand me "because of my Asperger"?


You're right, street fights shouldn't be a thing in civilized society.

As for why street fights are a thing (primarily among the neurotypical), it's not that the neurotypical are more prone to misunderstandings. Everyone, autistic or neurotypical, gets into arguments. Neurotypical men, however, are far more likely to solve problems with their fists.

My best guess is they think they look tough by throwing fists over any slight.

As for your question of why your girlfriend left you for slugging someone, yet we don't see neurotypical guys getting dumped over street fights, easy explanation: The same reason boldness is seen as attractive when neurotypical guys act bold, yet we're seen as creepy (and even potential rapists) when we act bold.

Autistic men don't have a bold/fighter personality. That's why we can't pull off boldness/fistfights.

It's not about what's being done; it's about who's doing it. Society judges us way more harshly than it judges neurotypical men.

I'm not saying neurotypical fighters get into fistfights daily (or even weekly). But they get into fistfights a lot more often than you or me.



Mitchell M.
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08 Oct 2022, 11:35 am

SkinnyElephant wrote:
Jayo wrote:
I've always had a certain interest in socio-anthropological psychology, despite being more in the technical field... and while I've since moved on from my younger dating "trial and error" days, married with a family and career, it always got me that us male Aspies lacked the "privilege" of others.

A few years before I was diagnosed (in my early twenties), I saw that some young women had this compulsion to "fix" their boyfriend, and their "ailment" was usually aggression, belligerence, or - heaven forbid - narcissistic personality disorder (yeah, good luck fixing THAT one, ladies! :P ) And I wondered, well, I've got some kind of unlabelled ailment that causes me to behave and communicate differently from the vast majority, so why doesn't a girl come along and try to "fix" ME?? And it dawned on me even back then, before I'd heard of Aspergers (which it was at the time), that she felt embarrassed to be seen with me, that I'd never be accepted by her social circle, or that she saw me as "weak" in some way. Even though I had good looks and a good body from working out, and worked in IT with a good salary.

So, I just viscerally knew from an anthro-psych perspective, that I wouldn't be considered a good protector; I was just thin-sliced as a weirdo and perpetual bully victim who could never be a good provider and protector. Even in our modern techy society, we still have some evo-psych remnants in our mammal brains. At least, the NTs do, more than us. :(

So then I did some online research, and get this, I found this comment in one forum from a woman which I found ignorant as hell but could understand why she would say/think this (WARNING: this may upset some folks here based on the apparent invalidation of Aspie struggles) - she basically said that not reading nonverbal cues is a sign of testing boundaries (yeah, WTF, right??) - below:

"First, let’s clarify. There are socially awkward men, and then there are the selectively socially awkward men. The second group are absolute nightmares. They’re the guys who blow past your body language and then “have no idea why you’re upset.” I cut these men zero slack, because no one is that clueless. They’re simply betting on the fact that if they blow past the boundaries enough and ignore more subtle signals, they’ll get what they want because women have been socially conditioned not to give a hard no."

When I saw that, I immediately thought back to when I was 21, that I got behind-the-back comments that I was "passive-aggressive" and didn't respect boundaries. And I thought, wow, I'm not the psycho-rapist type at all!! I was more of what they would call "incel" today, I suppose...but to think that there are women out there who would sooner assume that not reading body language is intentional, than an honest oversight.

But maybe I digress a tad.

When I looked at other comments, they were definitely "right between the eyes" and not sugarcoating...sort of along the same lines as the archetypal nice guys, or short guys, or really skinny guys.

"Because she won't feel safe with a socially awkward guy, that's all.
If he's afraid of social situations, how can he protect and provide for her and her children?

Socially awkward men seem weak and low status. Even they are good looking and earn good money, that's still how it is, because at heart, we are still cavemen evolved to deal with hunter gatherer world. The fact that we now have cars, computers and representative government in some places, doesn't change that fact. We're still cavemen."


Lots of good insights. An aggressive or belligerent man is seen as a thrill. A socially awkward man is (unfortunately) seen as lame.

When I was in high school, a classmate I was interested in flat-out told me it would be bad for her reputation if she dated me.

Once I got out of the high school bubble, I was able to date a fair bit during my 20s (Likely due to my good looks, plus the fact I'm only on the spectrum to a mild degree). Before anyone reading my post gets jealous, however, I should mention: Most relationships I've had have been extremely short-lived. My best guess is the girlfriend loses interest once it becomes apparent there's something off with me.

Even my longest-lasting girlfriend (we dated for months) never introduced me to her friends.

As for not being seen as a provider or protector, you took the words right out of my mouth. Guys on the spectrum, big or small, tend to be the type to avoid street-fights. And even though you make decent money, a lot of us struggle to climb the ladder at work (for the same reasons we struggle socially in general).

Lastly, I'm going to address your comment about selectively socially awkward men. Those men ruin it for the rest of us. We (guys on the spectrum) don't mean to push boundaries; we merely lack the awareness to even realize we're pushing a boundary. But how is the woman supposed to tell the difference between us vs the abusive guys who simply ignore social cues (even though he reads the social cues damn well)?


To be honest I've had a lot of trouble with this whole aggressive guy being desirable stuff, to the point where its affected my life to a fair degree. After I heard that stuff in 2019, I began to act more "thuggish" and "uncaring". Mainly I try to be selfish and extreme to anyway who I don't like. I also got into more street fashion, like the hoodie being a mainstay in my personal wardrobe. Eventually I described myself as an "autistic gangsta" and used the term "sperga" with my friends. I also began to LOATHE the "white nerdy autistic" and since then have sort of mentally picked on these "losers" by justifying it that "you can be mean and get everything you want, its more desirable". I do not like stuff like this being posted personally because eventually people will be inauthentic to themselves, but I do not care. Just wanted to share in interesting viewpoint.



Muse933277
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08 Oct 2022, 11:43 am

When I first started college back in the fall of 2016, I was sitting at a lunch table with a bunch of girls along with another guy who was also at the table.

The girls were receptive to me and liked me while they thought the other guy was "creepy" and refused to add him on snapchat. I didn't see anything wrong with the man as he was simply trying to make conversation, but looking back, the girls probably didn't like him because he was poorly dressed and came off as timid and awkward. This was in contrast to me; I was well dressed and trying to act outgoing and confident, which definitely helped.

Nowadays as a 27 year old man, i'd probably be seen as the creepy guy trying to talk to 18-19 year old girls. :lol:



Muse933277
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08 Oct 2022, 11:56 am

Men are judged for their social competence much more than women are in the dating marketplace. Also, women aren't typically as forgiving of social misunderstandings/blunders, so one wrong move can easily put men into the creepy or undateable territory.

So for this reason, this is why straight autistic men are often at a disadvantage when it comes to dating.



Women don't have to worry about being seen as "creepy" as much, so they can get away with more, hence autistic women don't have the social skills disadvantage to the extent that men have. For example, I knew an autistic woman who would go to bars, flash guys, and make out with random guys quite easily, and guys would love it.



Muse933277
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08 Oct 2022, 12:02 pm

Unfortunately, I was never an attractive man. I'm not butt ugly but physically, i'm probably a 4 or 5 out of 10. My biggest flaw is being 8 inches too short, but I was also quite skinny when I was younger. Now, i'm a little more filled out and when I was 25, I had quite the fit body, but I still wasn't that good looking.

Anyways, I never really had the advantage of being a good looking guy like some autistic men have. If you're attractive, it's easier to find partners simply because physical looks can override many things, and this is especially true if you're looking for one night stands. I never had the looks or the "charm" for one night stands or short term hookups, but for some people, that can work.



SkinnyElephant
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08 Oct 2022, 12:05 pm

Mitchell M. wrote:
SkinnyElephant wrote:
Jayo wrote:
I've always had a certain interest in socio-anthropological psychology, despite being more in the technical field... and while I've since moved on from my younger dating "trial and error" days, married with a family and career, it always got me that us male Aspies lacked the "privilege" of others.

A few years before I was diagnosed (in my early twenties), I saw that some young women had this compulsion to "fix" their boyfriend, and their "ailment" was usually aggression, belligerence, or - heaven forbid - narcissistic personality disorder (yeah, good luck fixing THAT one, ladies! :P ) And I wondered, well, I've got some kind of unlabelled ailment that causes me to behave and communicate differently from the vast majority, so why doesn't a girl come along and try to "fix" ME?? And it dawned on me even back then, before I'd heard of Aspergers (which it was at the time), that she felt embarrassed to be seen with me, that I'd never be accepted by her social circle, or that she saw me as "weak" in some way. Even though I had good looks and a good body from working out, and worked in IT with a good salary.

So, I just viscerally knew from an anthro-psych perspective, that I wouldn't be considered a good protector; I was just thin-sliced as a weirdo and perpetual bully victim who could never be a good provider and protector. Even in our modern techy society, we still have some evo-psych remnants in our mammal brains. At least, the NTs do, more than us. :(

So then I did some online research, and get this, I found this comment in one forum from a woman which I found ignorant as hell but could understand why she would say/think this (WARNING: this may upset some folks here based on the apparent invalidation of Aspie struggles) - she basically said that not reading nonverbal cues is a sign of testing boundaries (yeah, WTF, right??) - below:

"First, let’s clarify. There are socially awkward men, and then there are the selectively socially awkward men. The second group are absolute nightmares. They’re the guys who blow past your body language and then “have no idea why you’re upset.” I cut these men zero slack, because no one is that clueless. They’re simply betting on the fact that if they blow past the boundaries enough and ignore more subtle signals, they’ll get what they want because women have been socially conditioned not to give a hard no."

When I saw that, I immediately thought back to when I was 21, that I got behind-the-back comments that I was "passive-aggressive" and didn't respect boundaries. And I thought, wow, I'm not the psycho-rapist type at all!! I was more of what they would call "incel" today, I suppose...but to think that there are women out there who would sooner assume that not reading body language is intentional, than an honest oversight.

But maybe I digress a tad.

When I looked at other comments, they were definitely "right between the eyes" and not sugarcoating...sort of along the same lines as the archetypal nice guys, or short guys, or really skinny guys.

"Because she won't feel safe with a socially awkward guy, that's all.
If he's afraid of social situations, how can he protect and provide for her and her children?

Socially awkward men seem weak and low status. Even they are good looking and earn good money, that's still how it is, because at heart, we are still cavemen evolved to deal with hunter gatherer world. The fact that we now have cars, computers and representative government in some places, doesn't change that fact. We're still cavemen."


Lots of good insights. An aggressive or belligerent man is seen as a thrill. A socially awkward man is (unfortunately) seen as lame.

When I was in high school, a classmate I was interested in flat-out told me it would be bad for her reputation if she dated me.

Once I got out of the high school bubble, I was able to date a fair bit during my 20s (Likely due to my good looks, plus the fact I'm only on the spectrum to a mild degree). Before anyone reading my post gets jealous, however, I should mention: Most relationships I've had have been extremely short-lived. My best guess is the girlfriend loses interest once it becomes apparent there's something off with me.

Even my longest-lasting girlfriend (we dated for months) never introduced me to her friends.

As for not being seen as a provider or protector, you took the words right out of my mouth. Guys on the spectrum, big or small, tend to be the type to avoid street-fights. And even though you make decent money, a lot of us struggle to climb the ladder at work (for the same reasons we struggle socially in general).

Lastly, I'm going to address your comment about selectively socially awkward men. Those men ruin it for the rest of us. We (guys on the spectrum) don't mean to push boundaries; we merely lack the awareness to even realize we're pushing a boundary. But how is the woman supposed to tell the difference between us vs the abusive guys who simply ignore social cues (even though he reads the social cues damn well)?


To be honest I've had a lot of trouble with this whole aggressive guy being desirable stuff, to the point where its affected my life to a fair degree. After I heard that stuff in 2019, I began to act more "thuggish" and "uncaring". Mainly I try to be selfish and extreme to anyway who I don't like. I also got into more street fashion, like the hoodie being a mainstay in my personal wardrobe. Eventually I described myself as an "autistic gangsta" and used the term "sperga" with my friends. I also began to LOATHE the "white nerdy autistic" and since then have sort of mentally picked on these "losers" by justifying it that "you can be mean and get everything you want, its more desirable". I do not like stuff like this being posted personally because eventually people will be inauthentic to themselves, but I do not care. Just wanted to share in interesting viewpoint.


When I was in middle school/high school, I went through a stretch where I dressed gangster. In retrospect, I must have looked absurd (nerdy white autistic kid dressing gangster). I didn't act gangster at all.



SkinnyElephant
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08 Oct 2022, 12:09 pm

Muse933277 wrote:
When I first started college back in the fall of 2016, I was sitting at a lunch table with a bunch of girls along with another guy who was also at the table.

The girls were receptive to me and liked me while they thought the other guy was "creepy" and refused to add him on snapchat. I didn't see anything wrong with the man as he was simply trying to make conversation, but looking back, the girls probably didn't like him because he was poorly dressed and came off as timid and awkward. This was in contrast to me; I was well dressed and trying to act outgoing and confident, which definitely helped.

Nowadays as a 27 year old man, i'd probably be seen as the creepy guy trying to talk to 18-19 year old girls. :lol:


I myself am well-dressed. But even so, my lack of social skills make it hard for me to attract a woman.

For every success I've had, I've had far more failures.

Speaking of college, I can relate to the other guy at your table. I remember times in college when I thought I was part of the group. I found out the hard way, however: They merely viewed me as some odd guy who happened to be sitting with them.



kraftiekortie
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08 Oct 2022, 12:17 pm

It’s absolutely FALSE to equate social awkwardness with narcissism.

I don’t get why anybody would make that connection.

I feel the person who made that connection is nice—but I also feel she made an incorrect statement. I’ve made incorrect statements, too.



SkinnyElephant
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08 Oct 2022, 12:30 pm

Muse933277 wrote:
Unfortunately, I was never an attractive man. I'm not butt ugly but physically, i'm probably a 4 or 5 out of 10. My biggest flaw is being 8 inches too short, but I was also quite skinny when I was younger. Now, i'm a little more filled out and when I was 25, I had quite the fit body, but I still wasn't that good looking.

Anyways, I never really had the advantage of being a good looking guy like some autistic men have. If you're attractive, it's easier to find partners simply because physical looks can override many things, and this is especially true if you're looking for one night stands. I never had the looks or the "charm" for one night stands or short term hookups, but for some people, that can work.


Yeah, my looks (8 out of 10) definitely help me (compared to worse-looking autistic guys, no offense). Especially for shorter-term relationships.

But even so, I only have an advantage compared to other autistic guys. That's an extremely small demographic (the vast majority of the population is neurotypical).

For any type of relationship, short-term or long-term, a guy with good social skills (even if ugly) has a better chance than me.



SkinnyElephant
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08 Oct 2022, 12:35 pm

Muse933277 wrote:
Men are judged for their social competence much more than women are in the dating marketplace. Also, women aren't typically as forgiving of social misunderstandings/blunders, so one wrong move can easily put men into the creepy or undateable territory.

So for this reason, this is why straight autistic men are often at a disadvantage when it comes to dating.



Women don't have to worry about being seen as "creepy" as much, so they can get away with more, hence autistic women don't have the social skills disadvantage to the extent that men have. For example, I knew an autistic woman who would go to bars, flash guys, and make out with random guys quite easily, and guys would love it.


If an autistic guy, even if good-looking, flashed his privates at a bar, he'd end up in handcuffs.

Interestingly, gay guys frequently come onto me. I guess men, straight or gay, don't automatically dismiss a potential partner due to social awkwardness.

I'm straight though.



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08 Oct 2022, 2:12 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
It’s absolutely FALSE to equate social awkwardness with narcissism.

I don’t get why anybody would make that connection.

I feel the person who made that connection is nice—but I also feel she made an incorrect statement. I’ve made incorrect statements, too.


Oh I thought you were saying my uncanny valley comment was false. Yeah I agree. Social akwardness doesn't signify narcissm.



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08 Oct 2022, 3:36 pm

SkinnyElephant wrote:

If an autistic guy, even if good-looking, flashed his privates at a bar, he'd end up in handcuffs.




100% correct.

Men have to worry about being sexually creepy more than women do.



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08 Oct 2022, 3:50 pm

Autistic men who aren't particularly attractive and come off as socially awkward have a few options if they want to date.


1. This doesn't apply to everyone but if it's possible for you to looksmaxx your way to an 8+, this is highly recommended, but it really depends on why you're less attractive and whether or not it's fixable. A 6 ft tall, broad shouldered man with a decent looking face, but is 60 pounds overweight, has a lot more potential to become good looking compared to a short, balding, facially unattractive man who will always be held back by his height and face. The better looking you are, the easier it will be to find a partner and the higher percentage of people who are willing to date you, so there is definitely a benefit of trying to look your best.

2. Attempt to date other autistic women on the spectrum who are much more likely to be aware of your challenges. However, this doesn't work for all men due to the fact that autistic women are much less common, there's no guarantee you two would even be compatible, and autistic women are less likely to struggle with dating hence they may already be taken.

3. Accept the fact that you're probably not going to date a good looking high quality woman and instead go for women who are not very attractive themselves. This likely means going for a highly obese woman who doesn't have a lot of options.

4. Consider looking into either getting a mail order bride, or going to a country where it is known that dating is a lot easier. I'm talking about going to a country in SE Asia such as Thailand, Vietnam, or The Philippines to find a girlfriend, wife, or even just a hookup. This is a niche option, even for the autistic population, but it can be quite effective for some people. I'm not going to deny that many women are dating you for the benefit of moving to a better country BUT you would be surprised that many of these relationships last for years and decades, even after they have moved to your country. If you find the right one, who also likes you as a person and is mature enough to handle it, then it can work.