Autism - "different" or "inferior" WRT relationships?

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Nades
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18 Feb 2023, 1:58 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Nades wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
I see Psychiatry as a medical field which is still way way behind other medical fields, it is like still in 20th century, it still has a long way to catch up.
We would still see psychiatrists because for some conditions, there’s no other better choice.


The whole field is literally taking one group of people and pitting them against another to look for variations. It's as primitive as it gets.


Even the honesty part Issy is talking about is based on that kind of pitting and observation; there’s no genetic/organic proof that we are innately superior in honesty.
It is all… based on observation, that’s the whole psychiatry field is based on mostly.


It is. We are observed to have problems with communication and social skills. Honesty among autistics is an interesting trait but I would hardly consider it an advantage. Being honest and not knowing when to lie just makes us easy targets to unscrupulous people. That being said, many autistics are good at telling lies.



kraftiekortie
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18 Feb 2023, 2:05 pm

I hope the Grand Inquisitor comes back, and informs us he, at least, won a trivia contest :)



The_Face_of_Boo
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18 Feb 2023, 2:08 pm

I wish TGI will find passion and purpose in other areas other than fixating on finding love.



Nades
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18 Feb 2023, 2:37 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
I wish TGI will find passion and purpose in other areas other than fixating on finding love.


Trivia night is a nice little release for anyone.



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18 Feb 2023, 4:54 pm

 ! Cornflake wrote:
Although this is a new thread created from an off-topic block in another thread, the arguing and attacks need to stop now otherwise this thread will become one of the more shorter-lived threads on WP.


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Nades
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18 Feb 2023, 5:49 pm

Seeing this is now separate from the original thread, I'll post this https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/topics/diagnosis/diagnostic-criteria/all-audiences

This gives a clearer definition of what autism is.



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18 Feb 2023, 6:05 pm

and here too:
https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/hcp-dsm.htm

« Persistent deficits in social communication and social interaction across multiple contexts, as manifested by the following, currently or by history (examples are illustrative, not exhaustive; see text):
- Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity, ranging, for example, from abnormal social approach and failure of normal back-and-forth conversation; to reduced sharing of interests, emotions, or affect; to failure to initiate or respond to social interactions
.- Deficits in nonverbal communicative behaviors used for social interaction, ranging, for example, from poorly integrated verbal and nonverbal communication; to abnormalities in eye contact and body language or deficits in understanding and use of gestures; to a total lack of facial expressions and nonverbal communication.
- Deficits in developing, maintaining, and understanding relationships, ranging, for example, from difficulties adjusting behavior to suit various social contexts; to difficulties in sharing imaginative play or in making friends; to absence of interest in peers. »

Keywords:
Deficits, abnormalities, failure, difficulties, lack, poorly.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deficit

Autism is a DISORDER, please don’t turn it to some weird cult.



Last edited by The_Face_of_Boo on 18 Feb 2023, 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Nades
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18 Feb 2023, 6:12 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
and here too:
https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/hcp-dsm.htm

« Persistent deficits in social communication and social interaction across multiple contexts, as manifested by the following, currently or by history (examples are illustrative, not exhaustive; see text):
- Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity, ranging, for example, from abnormal social approach and failure of normal back-and-forth conversation; to reduced sharing of interests, emotions, or affect; to failure to initiate or respond to social interactions
.- Deficits in nonverbal communicative behaviors used for social interaction, ranging, for example, from poorly integrated verbal and nonverbal communication; to abnormalities in eye contact and body language or deficits in understanding and use of gestures; to a total lack of facial expressions and nonverbal communication.
- Deficits in developing, maintaining, and understanding relationships, ranging, for example, from difficulties adjusting behavior to suit various social contexts; to difficulties in sharing imaginative play or in making friends; to absence of interest in peers. »

Keywords:
Deficits, abnormalities, failure, difficulties, lack, poorly.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deficit

Autism is a DISORDER, please don’t turn it to some weird cult.


They practically listed everything but the keywords are correct. It's literally what autism is.



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18 Feb 2023, 6:20 pm

^ « Difference » and « variation » is just a wishful thinking of the « neurodiversity» movement (which feels pretty much like a cult to me).
But that won’t change the fact the keywords used in official diagnostic criteria, yes… officially we are inferior in social/communication capabilities than the general population. There’s no synonym of variation at all there.



Last edited by Cornflake on 18 Feb 2023, 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.: Removed a personal attack

Nades
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18 Feb 2023, 6:43 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
^ « Difference » and « variation » is just a wishful thinking of the « neurodiversity» movement (which feels pretty much like a cult to me).
But that won’t change the fact the keywords used in official diagnostic criteria, yes… officially we are inferior in social/communication capabilities than the general population. There’s no synonym of variation at all there.


Inferior social skills in comparison to the general public is what autism is. When I done my evaluation for autism, he picked over my social life with a fine comb. Poking and prodding for any info he could on my upbringing and interactions with others.

Categorising it as a difference or variation risks putting more of a distance between autistics and NT's by eroding at the already fragile level of self-awareness that autistics have when it comes to their social limits. I cringe sometimes when I see some of the "divergent" advocacy pushed by a lot autistic groups. Nobody likes a person who's tone deaf to how annoying they are.



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18 Feb 2023, 8:58 pm

Nades wrote:
Nobody likes a person who's tone deaf to how annoying they are.


It's the autism, duh! :roll:

Insists autistics have inferior social skills, whines about the lack of social awareness on an autism site.

Points out how inferior our social skills are, is surprised when our social skills aren't very good.

Got a funny way of expecting the very things we're supposed to be inferior at.



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19 Feb 2023, 12:01 am

Doesn’t mean we can’t compensate and improve.

We’re not necessarily stuck in the mud.

It’s not hopeless.

Many times, people with all sorts of disorders get to the point where there is almost no disorder.

I’m under no delusion that I am “superior” in any way, though I’ve been able to do okay in many things despite what I was born with.



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19 Feb 2023, 3:28 am

Nades wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
and here too:
https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/hcp-dsm.htm

« Persistent deficits in social communication and social interaction across multiple contexts, as manifested by the following, currently or by history (examples are illustrative, not exhaustive; see text):
- Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity, ranging, for example, from abnormal social approach and failure of normal back-and-forth conversation; to reduced sharing of interests, emotions, or affect; to failure to initiate or respond to social interactions
.- Deficits in nonverbal communicative behaviors used for social interaction, ranging, for example, from poorly integrated verbal and nonverbal communication; to abnormalities in eye contact and body language or deficits in understanding and use of gestures; to a total lack of facial expressions and nonverbal communication.
- Deficits in developing, maintaining, and understanding relationships, ranging, for example, from difficulties adjusting behavior to suit various social contexts; to difficulties in sharing imaginative play or in making friends; to absence of interest in peers. »

Keywords:
Deficits, abnormalities, failure, difficulties, lack, poorly.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deficit

Autism is a DISORDER, please don’t turn it to some weird cult.


They practically listed everything but the keywords are correct. It's literally what autism is.

This seems like a rather reductive and frankly wrong way of looking at the world. It is strange that one minute you would describe the psychiatry movement as being "20th century" and "primitive", and the next you would act as if any current psychiatric definition of autism is utterly flawless.

The fact is that no definition is ever "objective". Autism is a social construct, not a fact of reality - it is a way that some humans have tried to group some other humans based on what they perceive as their shared characteristics. It is, inevitably, wrong. There can never be a perfect definition.

Some people view autism purely in the form of deficits. That isn't "correct", it is just their opinion. Trying to insist that your incorrect opinion is actually correct, and everyone who disagrees with you just doesn't know what they're talking about, is unwise.

(I'm avoiding that trap here by not actually proffering any positive opinion, merely the negative one that all opinions are incorrect. Some are better than others, and generally the neurodiversity point of view is much more advanced and less flawed than the "psychiatry is infallible" point of view, but nobody will ever come up with a flawless model of autism that is actually useful - we can have flawed models that are somewhat useful, or we can have a perfect model which is utterly useless because it rejects the simplifications that are necessary for anyone to actually understand it or apply it.)



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19 Feb 2023, 4:45 am

I think when teaching in a classroom to children you might want to avoid those words like Inferior but we're adults here ,we can see the words deficit and failure and take them as just descriptive.



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19 Feb 2023, 5:56 am

The only people who are “failures” are criminals who only commit crimes for the thrill of it.



Nades
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19 Feb 2023, 8:51 am

The_Walrus wrote:
Nades wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
and here too:
https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/hcp-dsm.htm

« Persistent deficits in social communication and social interaction across multiple contexts, as manifested by the following, currently or by history (examples are illustrative, not exhaustive; see text):
- Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity, ranging, for example, from abnormal social approach and failure of normal back-and-forth conversation; to reduced sharing of interests, emotions, or affect; to failure to initiate or respond to social interactions
.- Deficits in nonverbal communicative behaviors used for social interaction, ranging, for example, from poorly integrated verbal and nonverbal communication; to abnormalities in eye contact and body language or deficits in understanding and use of gestures; to a total lack of facial expressions and nonverbal communication.
- Deficits in developing, maintaining, and understanding relationships, ranging, for example, from difficulties adjusting behavior to suit various social contexts; to difficulties in sharing imaginative play or in making friends; to absence of interest in peers. »

Keywords:
Deficits, abnormalities, failure, difficulties, lack, poorly.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deficit

Autism is a DISORDER, please don’t turn it to some weird cult.


They practically listed everything but the keywords are correct. It's literally what autism is.

This seems like a rather reductive and frankly wrong way of looking at the world. It is strange that one minute you would describe the psychiatry movement as being "20th century" and "primitive", and the next you would act as if any current psychiatric definition of autism is utterly flawless.

The fact is that no definition is ever "objective". Autism is a social construct, not a fact of reality - it is a way that some humans have tried to group some other humans based on what they perceive as their shared characteristics. It is, inevitably, wrong. There can never be a perfect definition.

Some people view autism purely in the form of deficits. That isn't "correct", it is just their opinion. Trying to insist that your incorrect opinion is actually correct, and everyone who disagrees with you just doesn't know what they're talking about, is unwise.

(I'm avoiding that trap here by not actually proffering any positive opinion, merely the negative one that all opinions are incorrect. Some are better than others, and generally the neurodiversity point of view is much more advanced and less flawed than the "psychiatry is infallible" point of view, but nobody will ever come up with a flawless model of autism that is actually useful - we can have flawed models that are somewhat useful, or we can have a perfect model which is utterly useless because it rejects the simplifications that are necessary for anyone to actually understand it or apply it.)


Primitive doesn't mean wrong. It's clear that autism exists and what you described can be applied to any form of disorder or mental illness.

Any sort of mental illness or disorder has some form of defects compared to the general public. Autism in particular has noticeable poor development with social interaction. I think describing it as a diversity instead allows for too much leeway with how autism is defined and for it to even be glamorised (which seems to be happening more and more).

Once it's a diversity, people can start denying the basic fundamentals of what autism entails and the challenges people with autism face. This thread got ripped off from the other because it was strongly implied the poor social development that comes with autism was actually a good thing, which for autistics, isn't a helpful stance at all to take and obviously it kicked off an argument.

For me, defects it certainly is.