Nice Guys and Love, what's your take on the issue

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rathernotsay
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02 Aug 2009, 7:20 am

anandamide wrote:
Attractive people, men or women, really want to be seen for the people they are rather than superficial qualities. Beautiful people want to be seen for who they are and communicated with on that level as much as those considered less attractive.

It is difficult to see inside and truly communicate with another person if all you are doing is lusting after that person. Lust gets everyone into trouble. You end up attracted to the superficial appearance of another person and therefore the way that you respond and communicate with that person lacks depth and is not conducive to develop a relationship or to sustain a relationship overtime.

I have struggled with this problem. I finally realized that I was attracted to jerks because they induced my lust. Once I admitted that to myself I was able to differentiate between lust and love. Women aren't generally "allowed" to admit that they feel lust but once I had that figured out then those "jerk" guys had a lot less power over me. If you want to help change women's attitudes among the women you meet then make it okay for a woman to admit when she feels lust in your communication with her and let her know it is okay to feel that way because if she can identify lust for what it is then she can deal more effectively with that emotion.

I think that when women get older, if they are wise, they learn to tell the difference between the two emotions. And then we are not so "led by the nose" by men who fulfill the ideals that our society says is attractive in a man. We can identify when we are feeling lust and deal with it more objectively. Just like men do when they view something that causes them to feel lust.



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:roll: Well that is a load. No, you make some realy good points. Like a wise woman should. :lol: It's very attractive by the way.

I think it is more than ok for two people to have these feelings and I'm not against a woman expressing her lust for me haha but I don't think telling her so is going to help whatsoever. I would recomend guys not do that. She will know you know and grow to love you by what you do in response to her.



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02 Aug 2009, 9:51 am

A few more points:

1. Some men might only feel like 'boring, emotionless bricks' when not in a relationship.
2. The feeling of being judged so harshly and strictly could itself cause people to feel that way.
3. Comparing men to 'bricks' reveals a possible lack of empathy in the woman.

I don't think some of you realize how serious it is when you deliberately torment people to the degree they question the point in living.


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anandamide
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02 Aug 2009, 10:40 am

rathernotsay wrote:
anandamide wrote:
Attractive people, men or women, really want to be seen for the people they are rather than superficial qualities. Beautiful people want to be seen for who they are and communicated with on that level as much as those considered less attractive.

It is difficult to see inside and truly communicate with another person if all you are doing is lusting after that person. Lust gets everyone into trouble. You end up attracted to the superficial appearance of another person and therefore the way that you respond and communicate with that person lacks depth and is not conducive to develop a relationship or to sustain a relationship overtime.

I have struggled with this problem. I finally realized that I was attracted to jerks because they induced my lust. Once I admitted that to myself I was able to differentiate between lust and love. Women aren't generally "allowed" to admit that they feel lust but once I had that figured out then those "jerk" guys had a lot less power over me. If you want to help change women's attitudes among the women you meet then make it okay for a woman to admit when she feels lust in your communication with her and let her know it is okay to feel that way because if she can identify lust for what it is then she can deal more effectively with that emotion.

I think that when women get older, if they are wise, they learn to tell the difference between the two emotions. And then we are not so "led by the nose" by men who fulfill the ideals that our society says is attractive in a man. We can identify when we are feeling lust and deal with it more objectively. Just like men do when they view something that causes them to feel lust.



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:roll: Well that is a load. No, you make some realy good points. Like a wise woman should. :lol: It's very attractive by the way.

I think it is more than ok for two people to have these feelings and I'm not against a woman expressing her lust for me haha but I don't think telling her so is going to help whatsoever. I would recomend guys not do that. She will know you know and grow to love you by what you do in response to her.


My point was that I have found it helpful to distinguish between love and lust. By being able to understand the difference between the two feelings I can make better decisions and have healthier boundaries in my relationships with men. I don't get all torn up and upset over some jerk when I know that the only thing he has to offer is that he causes me to feel some lust. But it is not easy for women to come to that conclusion because we are taught not to acknowledge our lust.



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02 Aug 2009, 11:00 am

So would you agree that the stigma associated with a woman being agressive has influenced the feminine pshyce such that even the lustful emotion a woman feels has to be framed in the context of socially acceptable "love?" Also is it not important to a woman to feel validated sexually by a male she thinks is attractive?



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02 Aug 2009, 11:38 am

rathernotsay wrote:
So would you agree that the stigma associated with a woman being agressive has influenced the feminine pshyce such that even the lustful emotion a woman feels has to be framed in the context of socially acceptable "love?" Also is it not important to a woman to feel validated sexually by a male she thinks is attractive?


Always needing validation from others sucks. I think it is a hallmark of emotional maturity to be able to own your own feelings and not give your power away to others.



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02 Aug 2009, 12:10 pm

Well said. I think it is a good thing with someone proved trustworthy. (that means a wife for me)

Exercising some self control would have kept me from some heartache myself.

You bring up another good point. Many guys give up their "power" to the woman they are asking out so then this woman who has had five lame guys approach her that day brushes them of and now she is a bad NT bla bla bla. Most times the guy knows nothing about her so she would be confused by all the emotion he has wrapped up in it.

Thanks for the discussion anadamide....smartypants.



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02 Aug 2009, 3:28 pm

This is thread looks like it was started a long time ago, don't know if I'd ever posted in it or not and I'm not sure that I want to scan through the whole thing to figure out so I'll just give my opinion as of today.

Your either attractive or your not. With different genders that means different things, the individual involved complicates this as well as in - you asking the question, whoever you happen to be, usually have as well certain things that you can and can't be attracted to and even if in fact society thinks little of you, having standards like that is still not a sign that your arrogant or a wretch or that you need ridicule for not knowing your place - its reality, its genetics doing what they're going to do in shaping what we can and can't feel and who we can and can't feel it toward.

For the guys and girls who are attractive - things happen quite often without too much effort, most other people have to struggle, and for those of us permanently on the outside it takes understanding that reality is much bigger, while initial impression would make you think that procreation is a person's only real measure of worth or achievement in this life things are so much broader and of course you know of millions upon millions of people where that notion is blown away in the negative sense (who have procreated and really shouldn't have).

Two things; 1) if you are nice and 2) if society doesn't accept you for who you are to where you'd be compelled for whatever reason to be an as*hole to demonstrate value or worth in society's eyes: don't bother. Human beings are really a collection of pressures (motivations) as well as limitations, that's what sculpts an individual, that's what forms an individual, its what made you who you are today and if you've really explored all the corners of yourself and realize there's nowhere else to go - your far more likely going to be single all of your life, you probably won't have kids unless its an oops on a rare one-nighter, all you can really do is do everything you possibly can to make yourself happy in this life which means self-improvement, bolstering your own dignity, refusing to take the reject, loser, f'up, gender roll failure type of labels. This is your existence, about 60 or 70 years of it, which strangely seems to get better as people get older (mainly over self knowledge I think), you learn which battles are winnable and which hopes for self-help and change for the future are absolute pie-in-the-sky based on what your fundamentally made of.

So, that's the real challenge - learning to be happy without. Possibly from either having good same or opposite sex friendships, possibly from getting good at hobbies, from having a successful career, from at least being able to show the world that you've more than made it as an adult and as a contributing member to society. Even if your dead certain that you'll be single from here on out indefinitely - don't let your body or the way you dress go, its more than just something you do for the opposite sex - you have to see it in the mirror every day and if you let yourself go it'll grind at you.

Reality is grimy, many times resistance to it is futile, the best you can do is the best you can do - after that point you really have to ask yourself how much choice you had in accepting the genetics, nervous system, biology, motivation or mal-motivation, emotional traits that you have. After that you have to really compartmentalize the things your literally not allowed to have in this life, in this case perhaps by natural selection, and try to compensate it in other areas. Truthfully we don't know what this experience really is, we don't know what the basics or building blocks of our existence are aimed at in the ultimate sense (hence the atheist/deist/theist debate), probably best to at least know that you can feel esteemed in the choices that you've made in life rather than being deformed by the hardships life throws at you - that's ultimate defeat and that's really the last thing you *ever* want to submit to.



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02 Aug 2009, 3:35 pm

And then you get to be 45 and whatever goodlooks you once had that got you by aren't enough anymore, you actually have to have a personality to interest other people with. Middle age hits everybody, even those who once got by on other people's high estimation of their looks.



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06 Aug 2009, 1:37 am

How can a relationship work between a guy who has no friends or social life at all and a girl who has lots of friends, does have a social life, and all. Are you supposed to make her be a no social life freak like you or let her get you on the right path.



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06 Aug 2009, 9:39 am

jackdumpster wrote:
How can a relationship work between a guy who has no friends or social life at all and a girl who has lots of friends, does have a social life, and all. Are you supposed to make her be a no social life freak like you or let her get you on the right path.




It's not about having friends, it's all about personality. You could be a hermit living in a cave but if you have an interesting personality no woman will care if you have friends or not. In fact, not having friends can be a plus for many women who prefer not to have to share their man with others. I know a guy who has no friends but women still think he's hot.

A lot of women are attracted to the loner type.



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13 Aug 2009, 4:37 pm

Here's another possibility: the 'women hate nice guys' stereotype was concocted by the upper classes to steer rejected men into violent acts that would land them in jail and keep them from writing big, long books in their suffering (as 'nice guys') to overthrow Christian mythology and modern-day Machiavellianism.

I'm sure that if many women watched my innermost thoughts, they'd pray to fortune I'd be a nice guy.


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13 Aug 2009, 7:04 pm

MikeH106 wrote:
Here's another possibility: the 'women hate nice guys' stereotype was concocted by the upper classes to steer rejected men into violent acts that would land them in jail and keep them from writing big, long books in their suffering (as 'nice guys') to overthrow Christian mythology and modern-day Machiavellianism.

I'm sure that if many women watched my innermost thoughts, they'd pray to fortune I'd be a nice guy.


There's nothing like overthrowing Christian mythology.

---

There's a lot of attractive people in the world (physically), and I can see it even in the people I don't personally find attractive. I think most people see someone who is "hot" and immediately try to talk to them. For me, I skip over typical beauty and look for unique qualities. My celebrity crushes have always been over the outcast character: Christina Ricci, Thora Birch, Janeane Garofalo, Ellen Page, etc.

Anyway, in the NT world, whether or not someone is nice is most definitely not a top priority when dating. They see a shiny object and chase after it. We, on the other hand, see through the charade and know whether or not to waste our time, and most of the time we still don't bother. At least in my case.

When meeting someone new online it's easier to get to know them. If you happen to be talking with an NT, chances are you'll end up the "good friend" or "like a brother" every time.

I've been single for 5 years. I do enjoy the lack of emotional obligations, but I also miss the comfort of having a significant other (even though I suck at being one, myself).


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16 Aug 2009, 6:41 pm

And if women don't like nice guys, you can be nice in defiance. How's that for bad boy?


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17 Aug 2009, 7:06 am

[

Quote:
quote="idiocratik
There's a lot of attractive people in the world (physically), and I can see it even in the people I don't personally find attractive. I think most people see someone who is "hot" and immediately try to talk to them. For me, I skip over typical beauty and look for unique qualities. My celebrity crushes have always been over the outcast character: Christina Ricci, Thora Birch, Janeane Garofalo, Ellen Page, etc.
).
[/quote]

As I read through your list of attractive women, I pictured each of them in my mind. Then I noticed it isn't just their outsiderness that they have in common. They all have the same shape of face, round on the top with a somewhat pointy chin: a heart-shaped face. I googled pictures to make sure I wasn't just imagining it. Then I googled two other women commonly considered attractive, Angelina Jolie and Paris Hilton. They both have a very different shape of face, both have a jaw line that is far more square than pointy.

What am I saying? That even when you try just as hard as you can to only look at personality and convince yourself that it's personality only that you are attracted to, everybody has a template of what they consider compellingly attractive. If somebody is objectively attractive (Angelina Jolie) but doesn't quite fit your personal template, you can acknowledge the attractiveness objectively but won't feel drawn to it. Everybody's got their something. This is not just an NT thing. Pull up pictures of all the women on your list and then pull up pictures of Angelina Jolie and Paris Hilton and look just at the shape of their faces and you'll see what I mean.



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17 Aug 2009, 7:13 am

Janissy wrote:
As I read through your list of attractive women, I pictured each of them in my mind. Then I noticed it isn't just their outsiderness that they have in common. They all have the same shape of face, round on the top with a somewhat pointy chin: a heart-shaped face. I googled pictures to make sure I wasn't just imagining it. Then I googled two other women commonly considered attractive, Angelina Jolie and Paris Hilton. They both have a very different shape of face, both have a jaw line that is far more square than pointy.

What am I saying? That even when you try just as hard as you can to only look at personality and convince yourself that it's personality only that you are attracted to, everybody has a template of what they consider compellingly attractive. If somebody is objectively attractive (Angelina Jolie) but doesn't quite fit your personal template, you can acknowledge the attractiveness objectively but won't feel drawn to it. Everybody's got their something. This is not just an NT thing. Pull up pictures of all the women on your list and then pull up pictures of Angelina Jolie and Paris Hilton and look just at the shape of their faces and you'll see what I mean.


There's nothing about Angelina Jolie or Paris Hilton that I like, but I do see what you mean.


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24 Aug 2009, 11:14 pm

A bit late to the club here, but my take on the issue is that most self-proclaimed "nice guys" are actually not, in fact, nice guys, but people with severely destructive personality flaws trying to make themselves out to seem like more suitable partners than they actually are.
If a man calls himself a "nice guy," he is, in all probability, lying.