Nice Guys and Love, what's your take on the issue

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I think it really depends on the couple. I know plenty of couples who are just lovers and have a special bond. I also know plenty of couples who look for conflict. Some people just have stupid crazy desires in life. I have just never understood the thrill of being in a dysfunctional relationship. Honestly I blame the media with the stupid "tough guy" music people my age listen to. Right now people just think its cool to live a hard life. Or better yet to become rich and keep insisting how poor they feel. Its just filling people's heads with garbage on what a good spouse is supposed to look like.

I think it really depends on the couple. I know plenty of couples who are just lovers and have a special bond. I also know plenty of couples who look for conflict. Some people just have stupid crazy desires in life. I have just never understood the thrill of being in a dysfunctional relationship. Honestly I blame the media with the stupid "tough guy" music people my age listen to. Right now people just think its cool to live a hard life. Or better yet to become rich and keep insisting how poor they feel. Its just filling people's heads with garbage on what a good spouse is supposed to look like.

I think it really depends on the couple. I know plenty of couples who are just lovers and have a special bond. I also know plenty of couples who look for conflict. Some people just have stupid crazy desires in life. I have just never understood the thrill of being in a dysfunctional relationship. Honestly I blame the media with the stupid "tough guy" music people my age listen to. Right now people just think its cool to live a hard life. Or better yet to become rich and keep insisting how poor they feel. Its just filling people's heads with garbage on what a good spouse is supposed to look like.

It is my belief that the popular courting terms "bad boy" and "nice guy" are useless, and need to be abandoned. They say nothing of value, since every seduction school has their own loose definitions of the two titles.

Nice guy: Someone who excessively compliments, buys gifts, helps out a lot, and smiles all the time? A "door mat", a self-depricator, or a highly moral and spiritual person? All of the above?

Bad boy: Someone who steals cars, rides motorcycles, and wears leather jackets? Someone who shoplifts? Someone who plays tricks on other people for their own amusement? An insensitive person? All of the above?

And what lines are to be drawn between these two vaguely defined sides? How many compliments can a bad boy give before he becomes a nice guy? How many cocky smirks does a nice guy give before he becomes a bad boy?

I don't know about you, but I'm experiencing the onset of a headache in dealing with all of these abstractions. As if these matters needed to be even more convoluted than they already are.

My working theory is that successful courting has nothing to do with any of this.

I believe that the nice guys have a much more pleasant adventure about them in terms of building a relationship over time, and that the confident guys have already used their "charms" in the very first encounter and they perhaps have nothing left of their personality to discover.

I wouldn't want any girl who'd prefer me to impress them in the early days, but someone whom notices a connection and has the capacity and diversity to want to partake in a pleasant adventure into getting to know someone.

To be fair, I have met two girls as described above, one of which I felt more and more delighted to be with the more I got to know her, but the problem always seems to be with me and that I wouldn't expect any girl, especially one as exceptional as one who would have the tolerance and patience to put with my aspergic quirks and my past, to simply accept my mistakes...

Ahaha coming back to the matter at hand, the shallow girls will take the shallow guys, but the girls with more depth and want for romantic adventure, will eventually find their quest in someone inspiring, even if those guys are so very hard to find.

Do "nice guys" finish "last" with regards to proper relationships or going out trying to "pull"?

The problem is that the stereotypical way to attract a woman is not something that is natural to a "nice guy".

Most of the nice guys do end up getting married though.

This will be attractive:

a guy with integrity and confidence, who will pay attention to a woman so that she feels he has noticed her, but who has an air of pleasant enjoyment of life instead of desperation, and who has his own things going on as well so that if she wants to see more of him she has to do something too. In other words, he is a good guy who seems secure with himself, not a doormat or obsessed person who is so around and overwhelming that the woman has enough of all the attention. A guy with integrity who has some pleasant exchanges with her but is also confident in or enjoying his life enough will come across as more intriguing. (Of course, a guy who is busy doing other things may still intrigue women into pursuing him because of the challenge, and still be not a good guy... The ones who are confident AND good guys, will appeal to many!)

"nice guys" are p*****s. Women need a firm hand, and they like men (not guys or boys or dudes) who lay down the law.
If you're too weak to tell a woman how it is, you're destined to drop out of the gene pool. Deal with it.

I am an aspie who has devoted every waking moment of free time in his life for three years to improving his social skills ($1000 on social theory books & audio, thousands of hours of methodical social experiments, keeping all 25 neurotypical rejections on a list with notes (some of whom I cared a great deal about, and most of whom I tried very hard to get a date with), etc). I have succeeded. I am now at the point in which I can make guy friends with nearly every male, and have no doubt that I could pick up a girl any week, and any day if I'm lucky. Although at my best I am still slightly awkward, and I'm not at my best unless I'm focusing all of my faculties on what I've learned over the past three years.

What that dude said earlier about needing to display Alpha male traits to pick up women is absolutely correct. But I find that it is totally a counter intuitive way of behaving for me, so I derive no pleasure from relationships derived from this behavior. The core attitude of the Alpha male is domination, whereas my natural inclination is to neither influence others or be influenced. As a result, I have recently been deliberately setting myself up for rejection by acting like myself. The most I can think to do right now is hope that someone who is either like me or not bigoted in her emotional responses comes across me someday. I've exhausted an entire High School's worth of females looking for this girl, and found only one, and she is a socially gifted neurotypical who prefers other neurotypicals for mates.

If you other aspies are like me, then this Alpha male crap is not for you. It has nothing to do with intelligence, social status, strength, or willingness to be a friend. It is an arbitrary way of behaving that is only mistaken for these things because neurotypicals associate these behaviors with those characteristics, like they might associate smiles with happiness. Had I known how hard it was to learn this s**t before I learned it, I would have gone into the woods and not come out. Nothing is worth that kind of effort, and especially not something with such a limited capacity for reward. No woman capable of pleasing an aspie beyond being a masturbation aid will fall for this s**t.

I'm smarter than every alpha male I've ever met, I'm stronger than half, more honest than all, and I have dominated all of them who have tried to dominate me (there are some pretty easy body language cues to learn that put fear and inferiority complexes in people pretty quick, and most people in industrialized society are pretty timid, even the alpha males). Although I'm friends with a few. They are some "alpha males" worthy of their adoration, but very few.

I quit working on learning how to be one about half a year ago, but after having come across this website, I will renew learning. I intend to film myself in social situations, and then give commentary about it. I am quite rusty, as counter intuitive s**t needs to be constantly practiced, but I can still easily see now that this commentary, even in the fastest intelligible narrative, could easily be 3x the length of a particular clip. Don't get anxious about it though, the soonest I could possibly get something useful out would be in 6 months, and I find sometimes that there are unexpected difficulties in projects like these.

here's a woman's perspective:
A lot of self-proclaimed 'nice guys' think that 'niceness' (ie, not using words like b***h or whore, being polite, being civilized, etc) is the 'trick' that they perform in order to get the cookie of sex. In other words, they're not naturally nice, they're performing for a reward. They are, in other words, creeps in clean clothing. Naturally civilized men DO tend to find mates rather easily.

The fact that you are bemoaning your lack of reward for being 'nice' sort of shows which category you're in; if you're nice because you're a nice person, instead of being nice to get f****d, you're not going to bemoan being yourself.

as*holes, at least, are generally honest about being as*holes. Some women would rather deal with an honest as*hole than a deceptive 'nice guy' - at least they know what they're dealing with.

No they don't. The men I find most likable (as a heterosexual man) tend to be the men who have most difficulties finding a mate, whereas the men I find least likable tend to be the men who have least difficulties finding a mate. Basically, the men who most easily find a mate are the men who don't really care for women and easily manipulate them whereas the men who have most difficulties finding a mate are the men who do care for women and are just themselves.



So if you are always treating people with respect but you're not getting any respect from them in return and feel very bad about this, that means you do not actually respect people but just try to uphold that impression? Your logic is screwed up and appeared to be extremely biased.



It appears you seem to think there are two categories of men : as*holes who are honest about being as*holes and creeps who pretend to be nice guys. That's incredibly offensive and absolutely not true.

Absolutely true. Women appear to be predisposed to being attracted a kind of behavior manipulative @$$holes find easy but nice guys are incredibly uncomfortable with or even incapable of.



Getting married doesn't mean ending up happily ever after. I wonder how many of those nice guys end up in a unhappy marriage where they're completely dominated by their wife.

It is always easier being hunted than being the hunter. As the hunter, you must ask yourself, "Exactly WHAT am I hunting for, and where am I hunting for it?" It's like that old country song, "Looking For Love in All The Wrong Places." If you're going out to bars or clubs, where every vacuous, empty-headed lemming goes to get drunk in order to give themselves permission to be idiots and sleazebags, then you are, in essense, in a shark tank. More than likely, you're nothing more than a bucket of chum in this environment.

Figure out the type of person you want to meet. I don't recommend making a "checklist" of traits, but maybe think of three or four things that you really would like....maybe "kind-hearted", "intelligent", "has my sense of humor", etc. Forget the physical traits checklist.....wonderful people come in all shapes and sizes, so why limit yourself?

Then, you have to realize that it takes TWO to make any kind of connection. If the other person you like isn't responding, I'd say there was no connection, so let it go, and try not to take it personally.

Finally, where are you trying to meet dates? If you're following the lead of the so-called "Alpha" males, then it's a set-up for failure. Their ways are not your ways, but thankfully, there are lots of people who aren't like that. There are dating sites for aspies.

Here is my own personal experience with "Alpha" males and the whole dating scene: As a girl with Asperger's, I tried to find guys at my level when I was in college. I would dress cute and go to math lectures where I knew they were. I tried to be nice and make conversation. They just stared and wouldn't give me the time of day, like I was an freak. I was lucky enough to be thin and attractive, yet I couldn't get any of those guys to respond. I wanted a nice guy, but they were all tongue-tied.

So I went the route of going to clubs with my friends. To me, the excessively loud music, the drunken nonsense, and the tribal ritualness of the whole scene always made me feel like I was a visitor from another planet. But I would do my best to blend in. The nice guys that may have been there were too busy ogling some NT girl with hardly any clothing and wondering why there were getting rejected. The alpha males were the ones who hit on me, full of bravado and beer. They are very good at appearing sincere while lying through their teeth.

My point is this: You aspie guys are not hunting for nice girls. You guys are suckered in by looks and by social ability. Then when those hot girls treat you like something stuck on the bottom of their stiletto pumps, you are hurt and angry, which is understandable. There are plenty of cute girls who WILL understand you, and plenty of us who also have Asperger's. Figure out who those are, and you'll have no trouble finding a good relationship. If I were a young male aspie, I would hit up places like bookstores on a Friday or Saturday night. Museums are good too.

As for the girls who go for the alpha male, it's because they are the ones who are actually making the attempt at connection without appearing desperate or mentally unstable. Most of them are borderline sociopaths, it is true, but they cast a wide net in order to make their catch. If one rejects them, they go right on to the next one.

I met my husband on the internet. It was a regular dating site. He had no idea that he has Asperger's, but I could tell immediately because, although he appeared like a real nice guy, his writings were typical of an aspie: Giving out too much personal information right off the bat, writing things that were slightly inappropriate, etc. I gave him a chance and I'm glad I did, because after all these years, he understands me and my quirks in a way that no NT could, and that's worth it's weight in gold.

In any case, I wish all of you the best in your endeavors, and remember to think outside the box when it comes to meeting a mate. As Albert Einstein said once, "You cannot solve a problem at the same level at which it was created."

It's not nearly that easy. The problem is that the vast majority of women require men to behave in a specific way to become attracted to them in the first place. As a man, you need to keep the conversation light hearted enough, you must ask them enough questions about their personal life, you must make them feel attractive and confident without being explicit and you must make them aware you're interested in them physically without being explicit. If not, the woman in question may think you're a nice guy but she will not feel anything romantically for you because these feelings are triggered by the behaviour I described. You have no idea how difficult it is for a man with Asperger's Syndrome to fit those criteria, which is the reason we usually end up as just friends if a woman actually like us.



Would you have given him a chance if you had not understood why he was giving out too much personal information or write things that were inappropriate? Maybe you would because you have Asperger's yourself, but most neurotypical women would immediately be turned off. That's the problem men with Asperger's face and it is very difficult to find a woman capable of looking beyond that initial reaction.

Thats not entirely true.

Im a 19 year old male aspie. I actually am more intrested by the quirky personilty than good looks.
it isnt easy finding strange women. at least for me it isnt?
bookstores and museums actually seem like a great idea!

I wasn't talking about treating people with respect. I was talking about 'niceness,' which often has very little to do with respect, and with guys who want sex in return for their 'niceness,' not respect.



No, there are far more categories than that - but 'nice guys' and 'as*holes' are the ones that usually feature prominently in this sort of discussion.

There are, for example, the very quiet, sensitive, sweet, shy men who only go out with women who come on to *them* first, the latter of which often turn out to be predators looking to take Mr. Shy for all he's worth. Mr.Shy =/= Mr. Nice Guy.

I guess my definition of 'nice guys' is pretty narrow compared to many of the other posters here.
This website has a bunch of essays about the type of 'nice guy' I'm talking about:
http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/ ... s/ng.shtml
(note that the 'heartless b*****s' moniker is sarcasm - they are no more heartless than 'nice guys' are actually nice).