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Nice Guys and Love, what's your take on the issue

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hyperlexian
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10 Aug 2012, 4:01 am

HisDivineMajesty wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
no, you asserted that intelligent men are less likely to get married, or that women may STATE they prefer intelligent men but do not choose them.


They do not choose them, especially for short-term encounters, based primarily on intelligence.
There are other factors. They may pick, at times, intelligent men, but not for their intelligence.

I never talked about marriage. I personally think marriage is legal sexist feudalism.

then you have negated your own point. a large proportion of women have never stated that, when looking for a SHORT term partner, they care primarily about intelligence.

so you have to have been talking about women's stated preferences when seeking long-term partners (i use marriage as a default for ease of communication, but we don't have to use that word as the point stands on its own).

either way, your conclusion doesn't have merit.


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DogsWithoutHorses
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10 Aug 2012, 2:37 pm

deltafunction wrote:
I think that most people just don't like evolutionary psychology, because they don't like to admit that we are a product of Darwinian survival of the fittest, and the preferences that have survived as a result may not be for reasons which appeal to us. I think many people would rather tell themselves that they like what people would deem as socially acceptable traits, and then the actions they make would say otherwise. Evolutionary psychology is acceptable when we study insects and animals, but for some reason, people get irked when we look in the mirror at our own species. The findings they have come across have been controversial, but their goal is to tell the truth about our human behaviour, however ugly it may be.

By the way, the book I am reading has studied over ten thousand subjects, and across the world in different cultures and countries, including tribal societies. The results were mainly the same, though when variations do occur, they will account for them. As an example, Swedish women tend to get married less, and have premarital relations more often. It is explained by the relatively high amount of social benefits women get in Sweden, which then help them pay for maternity and raise a child without the help of a husband. Just an example.


lots of people don't like evpsych because the 'science' isn't done particularly well...Shau critiqued it pretty well the last time it came up
also because the way it's usually talked about is drawn from pop psych headline length blurbs that are designed to be more controversial then informative

is there value in the idea of looking at how evolution shapes our minds and behaviors? totally
is there a lot of nonsense in the field atm? totally


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deltafunction
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10 Aug 2012, 6:23 pm

I don't know, I don't really see the point in arguing with people about it, nor do I want to crash this guys thread. Besides, it's not exactly like I was the one who originated these ideas, I am merely reading a book on the subject out of interest, though I'd be happy to discuss it with people who are interested. But I personally would trust the results from the studies shown over any opinions or beliefs people have. The book merely analysis the results, like any good scientists would do.

The whole point of the resources thing is not that it makes sense in today's world, only in the world of our ancestors who have passed on their genes. The explanation given was that men have evolved to seek short-term partners, and so there must have been women who have let our ancestral fathers be promiscuous. Some of the reasons why women would do so were so women could secure extra food or resources when her husband was unable to, or in the place of having a husband. They gave examples of the present in the Western world, where extramarital lovers were given gifts, or elevated status by introduction to more powerful social circles. Sure, women who have a one night stand with a man may not benefit with material gain, but some women would be more likely to want to sleep with a man if he convinced her that he was rich. She opens herself to the possibility of him devoting more resources to her if he wants to sleep with her again.

As for women wanting to secure resources in long-term relationships, even high-earning women tend to want to marry men who are earning more than she is. But the point is that women want a long term partner who will devote a majority of his resources to herself or the family. This is shown by women's dislike of "stingy" men, women getting jealous when a man devotes his resources to another woman, women looking for men who are hardworking and smart because of their future earning potential, women disliking men who are unemployed or divorcing when her husband becomes unemployed, etc.

Also keep in mind that Aspies are a minority, and studies like this look at the psychology of the majority of people.



hansky
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10 Aug 2012, 7:39 pm

It's more like "nice people finish last." "Nice guys finish last" makes it sound like there are many types of men, and only one type of woman. I'm a shy and awkward girl, and I've never dated a jerk or confident guy... well, I've never dated anybody. I've never been attracted to guys with confidence, but rather guys with mutual interests. In general, extroversion is praised while introversion isn't. My introversion is the reason why the guys I like don't like me, and why most people in general don't like me.



KinetiK
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10 Aug 2012, 9:44 pm

"Nice guys" are the male equivalent of the "fat girl". It's really that simple.



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10 Aug 2012, 10:14 pm

I'm coming to this late so I admit that I haven't read all the posts. I've dated almost exclusively "nice guys" and I can tell you that their main failing is that they're basically just too scared to be jerks out in the open. So yeah, they have manners. But they're also manipulative and mopey and they need constant ego-boosting and... seriously, they're a lot of work. They have little pouty tantrums if things don't go the way they want them to and they retaliate for perceived slights that may or may not exist by making you feel bad about yourself rather than just saying "listen, you did something that upset me" like a grown-ass man.
They want their cake and they want to eat it too. Be jerks but still get to be "sensitive" and "evolved" and most importantly never have to take a punch to the groin for their jerkiness.



hyperlexian
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11 Aug 2012, 1:04 am

deltafunction wrote:
As for women wanting to secure resources in long-term relationships, even high-earning women tend to want to marry men who are earning more than she is. But the point is that women want a long term partner who will devote a majority of his resources to herself or the family. This is shown by women's dislike of "stingy" men, women getting jealous when a man devotes his resources to another woman, women looking for men who are hardworking and smart because of their future earning potential, women disliking men who are unemployed or divorcing when her husband becomes unemployed, etc.

this is not really true, because in modern society people tend to marry others of equal socioeconomic status (that assortative mating i was talking about). if men do earn slightly more than women in a marriage, that is usually due to the fact that women earn less for the same jobs, or the women reduce hours or took time off to care for the family. but at the point of marriage, the income is usually relatively comparable (taking into account the gender wage gap).

(also, some women might be seduced by money, but that doesn't make it a gender-wide instinct based on evolutionary factors. women were not dependent on men until agricultural societies became common, and in prehistoric societies private property was rare.)


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Last edited by hyperlexian on 11 Aug 2012, 1:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

hyperlexian
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11 Aug 2012, 1:06 am

KinetiK wrote:
"Nice guys" are the male equivalent of the "fat girl". It's really that simple.

so.... nice guys must be quite datable in your paradigm, because fat girls aren't especially scorned. it seems to depend on more than just the one factor.


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11 Aug 2012, 1:22 am

deltafunction wrote:
I think that most people just don't like evolutionary psychology, because they don't like to admit that we are a product of Darwinian survival of the fittest, and the preferences that have survived as a result may not be for reasons which appeal to us. I think many people would rather tell themselves that they like what people would deem as socially acceptable traits, and then the actions they make would say otherwise. Evolutionary psychology is acceptable when we study insects and animals, but for some reason, people get irked when we look in the mirror at our own species. The findings they have come across have been controversial, but their goal is to tell the truth about our human behaviour, however ugly it may be.

By the way, the book I am reading has studied over ten thousand subjects, and across the world in different cultures and countries, including tribal societies. The results were mainly the same, though when variations do occur, they will account for them. As an example, Swedish women tend to get married less, and have premarital relations more often. It is explained by the relatively high amount of social benefits women get in Sweden, which then help them pay for maternity and raise a child without the help of a husband. Just an example.

I'm a trained biologist. Evolutionary psychology is NOT as science; evolutionary biology is. The former makes up just-so stories; the latter makes testable predictions, and looks for evidence to confirm or disprove them. Most evolutionary psychologists don't even understand what 'fitness' means from a biological perspective.
Evopsych may become a science at some point in the future, but right now it's at about the level of psychology in the time of Freud.



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11 Aug 2012, 1:27 am

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
deltafunction wrote:
I think that most people just don't like evolutionary psychology, because they don't like to admit that we are a product of Darwinian survival of the fittest, and the preferences that have survived as a result may not be for reasons which appeal to us. I think many people would rather tell themselves that they like what people would deem as socially acceptable traits, and then the actions they make would say otherwise. Evolutionary psychology is acceptable when we study insects and animals, but for some reason, people get irked when we look in the mirror at our own species. The findings they have come across have been controversial, but their goal is to tell the truth about our human behaviour, however ugly it may be.

By the way, the book I am reading has studied over ten thousand subjects, and across the world in different cultures and countries, including tribal societies. The results were mainly the same, though when variations do occur, they will account for them. As an example, Swedish women tend to get married less, and have premarital relations more often. It is explained by the relatively high amount of social benefits women get in Sweden, which then help them pay for maternity and raise a child without the help of a husband. Just an example.


lots of people don't like evpsych because the 'science' isn't done particularly well...Shau critiqued it pretty well the last time it came up
also because the way it's usually talked about is drawn from pop psych headline length blurbs that are designed to be more controversial then informative

is there value in the idea of looking at how evolution shapes our minds and behaviors? totally
is there a lot of nonsense in the field atm? totally

QFT



deltafunction
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11 Aug 2012, 6:42 am

LKL wrote:
deltafunction wrote:
I think that most people just don't like evolutionary psychology, because they don't like to admit that we are a product of Darwinian survival of the fittest, and the preferences that have survived as a result may not be for reasons which appeal to us. I think many people would rather tell themselves that they like what people would deem as socially acceptable traits, and then the actions they make would say otherwise. Evolutionary psychology is acceptable when we study insects and animals, but for some reason, people get irked when we look in the mirror at our own species. The findings they have come across have been controversial, but their goal is to tell the truth about our human behaviour, however ugly it may be.

By the way, the book I am reading has studied over ten thousand subjects, and across the world in different cultures and countries, including tribal societies. The results were mainly the same, though when variations do occur, they will account for them. As an example, Swedish women tend to get married less, and have premarital relations more often. It is explained by the relatively high amount of social benefits women get in Sweden, which then help them pay for maternity and raise a child without the help of a husband. Just an example.

I'm a trained biologist. Evolutionary psychology is NOT as science; evolutionary biology is. The former makes up just-so stories; the latter makes testable predictions, and looks for evidence to confirm or disprove them. Most evolutionary psychologists don't even understand what 'fitness' means from a biological perspective.
Evopsych may become a science at some point in the future, but right now it's at about the level of psychology in the time of Freud.


Makes up stories? Really, I wouldn't go so far as to insult a whole field. What these guys did was survey and observe over 10000 people in 37 different countries, then they explained their take on the results. I don't see the difference between this and the field of psychology, where they also do research through surveying a population, or by testing responses to pictures, or physiological stress in a lab setting. Seriously, these guys are not just making stuff up, I don't know why you guys are saying that. It's insulting to a profession.

I don't care what anyone else thinks about it anyways. For those who are interested, the book is called "The Evolution of Desire". Read it then I will discuss. I'm not good with paraphrasing.



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12 Aug 2012, 1:41 am

hyperlexian wrote:

many women apparently prefer more muscular hardbodied men for the short-term events, which is the reverse of wanting a more "physically fit" man for the long term.


:!:

So THAT'S why they always ask for 20 bucks when I'm done. I'd better get myself checked.



hyperlexian
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12 Aug 2012, 1:56 am

CaptainTrips222 wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:

many women apparently prefer more muscular hardbodied men for the short-term events, which is the reverse of wanting a more "physically fit" man for the long term.


:!:

So THAT'S why they always ask for 20 bucks when I'm done. I'd better get myself checked.

hahaha i doubt that. it's not like non-muscular, non-hardbodied men are rejected en masse (god knows i've mostly had one night stands with non-muscular men), but men with a certain physique apparently are more likely to be successful with women who want something short term.


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12 Aug 2012, 9:22 pm

cozysweater wrote:
I'm coming to this late so I admit that I haven't read all the posts. I've dated almost exclusively "nice guys" and I can tell you that their main failing is that they're basically just too scared to be jerks out in the open. So yeah, they have manners. But they're also manipulative and mopey and they need constant ego-boosting and... seriously, they're a lot of work. They have little pouty tantrums if things don't go the way they want them to and they retaliate for perceived slights that may or may not exist by making you feel bad about yourself rather than just saying "listen, you did something that upset me" like a grown-ass man.
They want their cake and they want to eat it too. Be jerks but still get to be "sensitive" and "evolved" and most importantly never have to take a punch to the groin for their jerkiness.


I'd say 90% to 99% of women do NOT want a jerk, period. Most "nice guys" aren't nice they are sensitive, shy and that does not make a person nice. Manipulitive and mopey are far too common among so called "nice guys".

I have been lied to most by "nice guys"; I have been manipulated and in terrible situations thanks to the "nice guys".
I want a man that is introverted, RESPECTFUL, HONEST, compassionate, values good communication and capable of it to me that's a real "nice guy".


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12 Aug 2012, 10:14 pm

Im a nice gu I guess you can say but I am also drunk at the moment and wish to give lots of hugs to all the women out there!! :oops:


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12 Aug 2012, 10:27 pm

deltafunction wrote:
Makes up stories? Really, I wouldn't go so far as to insult a whole field.
I would when the 'field' is evo psych. Specially when the insult is that it "makes stories up" as it is precisely what it does :/

deltafunction wrote:
What these guys did was survey and observe over 10000 people in 37 different countries, then they explained their take on the results..


By making stories up.

It is a pseudoscience. The "sciencish" part is to make a survey. The pseudo part comes from the leap to conclusions in an attempt to "explain" the survey results. Why do men like blue over red? I bet it is because men used to hunt blue dinosaurs whilst women stayed at home. With time men worse the blue dinosaur's skins to remember how they hunted the dinosaurs. And the man with the blue-st skin would gain more rank. Hence men were selected naturally to like blue.


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