Bullying's effects on AS males ability to initiate
04 Feb 2009, 9:05 pm
Of course it varies from person to person, but I don't believe my own bullying problems in elementary school had much bearing on my lack of success with women. I think there was a girl in the school where the bullying was the worst who kind of liked me, and gave me some of her time, but in my own youth and naïvety I didn't really notice her. In my secondary school the bullying went away and I think what might have hurt me more was the indifferent or sometimes mean reactions I got from people of the opposite sex when I expressed interest. I'm still quite intimidated by women who I'm interested in, and wary of women who I think I might have a chance with due to those being the ones who (inadvertently) hurt me the hardest.
04 Feb 2009, 10:24 pm
ive "It's not like that for me, so it can't be for anyone" defeatist f*cking attitude. Please dude, if you really do feel like that, you might need to have yourself committed or something. I think you might actually pose a threat to yourself or others. I certainly don't think you contribute much of anything to this forum for people who are looking for constructive advice.
While I agree that ToadOfSteel was too harsh with his reaction, ultimately, I agree with him. A person who has a wife, let alone a girlfriend, won't be in the position to understand what it's like not to be able to find a romantic partner. It's no different than a gourmet chef telling a hungry homeless person to simply "keep your hopes up and keep searching until you find food", when it's much better to give him an address of a soup kitchen, and if he's feeling generous, money to take a bus there. (Notice I didn't say "give him food".) Similarly, telling a person who can't find a girlfriend to "just improve your outlook on life, and you'll find someone" really does sound condescending, or worse, just rubbing it into that person's face.
05 Feb 2009, 12:13 am
Aspie1, I disagree. While my experience is not yours, or his, there have been long periods of excruciating loneliness and dire thoughts and fears of being alone... one doesn't gain a monopoly on the situation over time. Some people act rather shamelessly and without thought when they don't face the same problem; some people are trying to share how they changed their approaches and what they learned in order to make connections with people. When someone is convinced that they are not worthy of being loved, when they second guess every action, every decision, how can someone feel otherwise? It doesn't solve the problem, but it removes an obstacle. Perhaps a way to look at the situation is not how to blast through the barrier, but which pieces you can move yourself in order to escape trapped in the mine alone.
M.
_________________
My thanks to all the wonderful members here; I will miss the opportunity to continue to learn and work with you.
For those who seek an alternative, it is coming.
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
05 Feb 2009, 12:23 am
Let's just put it this way. Have you ever been in a relationship? Just one will do, and it needn't be a long-lasting relationship either... If the answer to that question is yes, you have established proof-of-concept of you not being a complete failure in life... Once you have that, it cannot be taken away... unfortunately, acquiring that proof-of-concept is nigh-impossible for some, like me, for instance... When someone with said proof-of-concept talks about how easy it is to find a partner to someone without, and the latter person cannot replicate the former's results, it seems very condescending...
05 Feb 2009, 12:49 am
Well, I don't think that a person's inability to have relationships makes them a "complete failure in life." There are other, more profound ways that someone can influence the world than simply finding a lover or starting a family.
However, I still don't understand where people get the "someone for everyone" concept. There's no real evidence for it, it's been proven WRONG by those who die alone, and yet people continue to insist that it's true. I suppose if my kitchen floor is flat, the Earth must be flat as well?
Last edited by Cyberman on 05 Feb 2009, 12:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
05 Feb 2009, 12:49 am
Let's just put it this way. Have you ever been in a relationship? Just one will do, and it needn't be a long-lasting relationship either... If the answer to that question is yes, you have established proof-of-concept of you not being a complete failure in life... Once you have that, it cannot be taken away... unfortunately, acquiring that proof-of-concept is nigh-impossible for some, like me, for instance... When someone with said proof-of-concept talks about how easy it is to find a partner to someone without, and the latter person cannot replicate the former's results, it seems very condescending...
Yes, I have been in a relationship; I'm engaged to a wonderful woman who has been my friend for the past eight years. Please understand that there is no condescension meant or intended from me in this regard, ever. This is something that hurt me a lot over time, even with having some success in my lifetime. It took a lot of failures to find any sort of success... something to consider, that when one seems to give up after a few attempts, it challenges the ability to logically commiserate, because my own experience tells me that in order to reach this proof-of-concept, one has to keep trying. One makes many prototypes before reaching the final draft and production model, no?
M.
_________________
My thanks to all the wonderful members here; I will miss the opportunity to continue to learn and work with you.
For those who seek an alternative, it is coming.
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
05 Feb 2009, 12:52 am
However, I still don't understand where people get the "someone for everyone" concept. There's no real evidence for it, it's been proven WRONG by those who die alone, and yet people continue to insist that it's true. I suppose if my kitchen floor is flat, the Earth must be flat as well?
Is there an ideal someone for everyone? No. Are there partners out there? Yes. Will some people remain single their entire lives while others have relationships? Yes; statistically, this is all but guaranteed. Does the spectrum affect one's ability? Yes, but it is not a sentence without reprieve. It is a circumstance one can affect, albeit with effort and sacrifice. But to presume failure is something I have a real issue with. That being said, everyone has the right to choose their path in life.
M.
_________________
My thanks to all the wonderful members here; I will miss the opportunity to continue to learn and work with you.
For those who seek an alternative, it is coming.
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
05 Feb 2009, 10:30 am
I was reading about the movie 40 Year Old Virgin on IMDB, and someone posted this message. I thought it was very true, so here it is. Feel free to agree or disagree. I changed a few words here or there to make it sound less harsh. But I liked the tone of writing; I thought it was honest, simple, and to the point. Read the bolded part closely; it actually tells you how to be confident.
My observation has shown me that people generally hook up with someone on the same physical appearance level. There's a point variation for luck/personality and another for wealth, but both are extreme cases. You need a lot of personality or a lot of money to jump a point on your significant other.
That said, if you think you're ugly, whatever. That doesn't mean you won't attract a woman; it just means you won't attract a model. Get over it. Women on your level are attracted to you, and will make themselves available to you... IF.
There's a big IF in there. IF you don't mess it up.
Don't be a wuss. Be confident in what you do and say. Sounds like BS advice, right? How can you just be magically confident? You can't. But what you can do is NOT say something you are not confident about, and NOT do something you are not confident about. Whatever's left, you're confident about.
Don't be gross. Shower every day. Brush your teeth, comb your hair, basically, be presentable. Some people have stronger smells than others, and more than just your pits can smell. If you don't do these steps, you may be walking around smelling bad and not know it, because no one wants to tell you.
Don't be confused. If a girl likes you, you'll know. If she doesn't like you, you'll have nothing to look for, because there won't be any signs. That's enough to know they aren't into you. Don't sit around with a lack of evidence and try to make something out of it. You end up getting disappointed every time.
Don't pass up an opportunity. I know a lot of guys who don't get ANY girls and still pass up the rare but occasional overweight or not-so-hot girl because they think it's beneath them. Guys who have sex left and right three times a day can discriminate. Take what you can get. It builds confidence, gives you practice, and relieves you of the burden of worrying if you could get some. There's even a chance you'll have a nice enough time that you keep seeing her.
Fat guys, ugly guys, dumb guys, ALL hook up sooner or later, provided they don't screw it up. It's not about lowering your standards; it's about having reasonable standards. So if you're passing up opportunities that you know you could go for, perhaps you're responsible for getting any in a long time.
05 Feb 2009, 10:38 am
This is one point where I think this guy's wrong. I've been surprised by women suddenly revealing crushes on people before, and let down by girls who I was positive liked me. The point is you can't know or be positively sure there really is (or isn't!) an opportunity from the outset.
05 Feb 2009, 10:40 am
I'm the OP finally posting again on my thread. I'm thinking that the social phobia which bullying creates can cause males to be more nervous to initiate relationships with women. The people who bullied me were previously my friends. At first they liked my oddness but in high school they decided I no longer was cool. This made me less trusting and more suspicious of people in general.
05 Feb 2009, 11:26 am
.
Does you apology includes me too?
05 Feb 2009, 11:48 am
First, I'd like to apologize to the OP for my actions and those of some others here who provoked/attacked me. We detracted from and hijacked your thread, and took the discussion in unproductive directions that did not do your good topic justice. While I will always defend myself when attacked, I see that two people weren't even worth me bothering to respond to (the first two people who attacked me), and ToadofSteel, while he has problems, readily admits to them and has apologized as well -- I take the man at his word, and accept it.
In response to Aspie1 -- while makuranososhi has done an admirable job of stating the case, let me just say that the whole reason I post in this forum, and only in the Romance section of Wrongplanet, is that prior to meeting my wife, I went through 100% of the problems I see people complain about here. I had years of loneliness without dates, few/no friends, bullying, social exclusion, heartache, thoughts of suicide, and a skewed perspective on life. It turned around on a dime in a very short period of time, as I became aware of my own faults (other than AS) and how my bad habits and outlook were souring me in the eyes of the people I would desire to like/want me. The chip on my shoulder and my negative or anxious attitudes scared people away, and I also didn't realize that life as a teen/young adult is very different than life past age 22 in terms of opportunities and trends.
One major attitude change later, totally different situation -- at two different points I have had 2 girlfriends simultaneously, been (and still am) happily married, found career success, and things that make me happy. My life isn't perfect, and I'm still a pretty lonely person outside of my relationship, but I do see that I don't make the effort needed to have a lot of friendships, and that I'm happier doing solitary things -- my attitude plays into how my life is. You get what you pay for, figuratively and literally.
So when I see people on a Romance forum expressing discontent about their lives, asking for advice, crying out for help, I feel a lot of sympathy and empathy. That was me 14 years ago (not so long as it sounds), and I remember how helpless I felt, how futile my efforts seemed, and how clueless I was about how to solve my problem. Without being condescending (to condescend means to assume an air of superiority, and I don't think I'm superior, just more fortunate and with some years of experience on my belt), I'm trying to pass on what I learned to those that seem to be asking for that help. If my help is unneeded, please, ignore my posts and advice, and I'm sure people here do. Just treat me with the same respect I treat you with, because my goal in life is not to waste brainpower in a flamewar, but to do what I can to help my fellow AS guys who are having the same problems I did. We all need a little advice from someone older from time to time, especially if they have what we want (in this case a happy relationship).
ToadofSteel, you're only 21, but you talk as if your life is over -- it's just beginning. I have never met someone who spent this much time at church who was so depressed and negative (usually Christians are all "Life is great!" and "Jesus has a plan for you!") -- whatever you're getting from Church, it's not working, you need to try something else, like working out, seeing a therapist, and taking positive action to fix your life now. No one is going to fix it for you, and it seems like a waste that someone so obviously intelligent is letting their life slip away day by day. Rest assured your issues are more about things other than AS than AS at this point, until the depression is gone or treated.
NonlinearLuke, I totally agree -- the bullying at key points in our development do much to stymie our social development and cause Pavlovian influences on how we react to future conditions. The question is, is this an inevitable result of us being out of sync with society (our AS-caused social skill deficit) or is it a chance occurance? Additionally, is this maybe something multiple groups, AS and NT alike, go through? In a way, maybe the rapids of life that everyone has to brave? I can remember other folks in school having problems as well with bullies -- the hyper kid, the compulsive liar -- and having equally disastrous results.
05 Feb 2009, 1:27 pm
NonlinearLuke, I totally agree -- the bullying at key points in our development do much to stymie our social development and cause Pavlovian influences on how we react to future conditions. The question is, is this an inevitable result of us being out of sync with society (our AS-caused social skill deficit) or is it a chance occurance? Additionally, is this maybe something multiple groups, AS and NT alike, go through? In a way, maybe the rapids of life that everyone has to brave? I can remember other folks in school having problems as well with bullies -- the hyper kid, the compulsive liar -- and having equally disastrous results.[/quote]
NTs are also bullied. People with AS are less likely to understand why they are being bullied because of their lack of social skills. They also aren't sure how to react when being bullied. I reacted to my bullies and it didn't do me any good. I think that they were trying to get a reaction out of me so I would have been better off ignoring them. NTs who are bullied are better equipped socially to deal with bullies than people with AS.
05 Feb 2009, 1:43 pm
True enough, sometimes bullies are just socially "trolling" -- looking for a reaction out of someone, maybe to fill their own loneliness or desire for attention or power. In some of those cases, you can ignore them or otherwise rob them of the reaction they are looking for.
But in other cases to ignore them or not take action is detrimental to your health, if you are being physically abused, mentally abused, relationally aggressed against, etc. In those cases, it is much more constructive to take action in some way -- getting authorities involved in the case of physical abuse, getting peers and parents involved in other cases, and in some circumstances, changing schools.
The longer the situation goes on, the worse the damage gets, and the harder it is for an Aspie to pull themselves out of the hole they've been thrown into. I wish I had left the Magnet schools long before I did, because "toughing it out" was doing nothing positive for me, and lots of negative things. It's very hard to get back some of those crucial years and bonding experiences once you've lost them -- you're almost forever playing catchup. I still give my parents a very hard time about not recognizing the signs of major problems, and I think they blamed the victim (me) for far too long. Now that I'm the most successful of their three kids, financially independent, and have the most stable life compared to my more favored (by them) siblings, I think they're realizing they had their heads up their asses.
I hope I don't make the same mistake with my kids when we have them.
05 Feb 2009, 2:10 pm
[quote="billsmithglendale"[ToadofSteel, you're only 21, but you talk as if your life is over -- it's just beginning. I have never met someone who spent this much time at church who was so depressed and negative (usually Christians are all "Life is great!" and "Jesus has a plan for you!") -- whatever you're getting from Church, it's not working, [/quote]
Outside the topic of romance, I'm actually a well-rounded person, mainly because of the supportive elements present at the church. The people there are the only people that I know in person (as opposed to online) that actually accept me for who I am, not what I am, and without reservation. I have no problem making friends, although all my friends are at the very least 10 years older than me, because aside from one girl that occasionally shows up to choir(previously mentioned in this thread), there' s nobody in the 18-25 range around, and only some married couples in the 25-30 range... The trend at my church is for people to leave when they graduate high school (I was the exception in this case, persisting into college years due to attending college locally... while there are others going to college locally, they still don't show up at the church.
However, I can't just leave the church to find women. The people there are part of why I haven't killed myself by now. I have a basic sense of belonging over there that is, at the very least, keeping my emotions on life support... And, as it stands, I have no idea where women my own age go... I'm not someone who enjoys parties, so those are out...
| Similar Topics | |
|---|---|
| Gabapentin for Dogs: Use, Dosage & Side Effects |
02 Apr 2024, 7:02 pm |
| Bullying boss with their boss leaving: references for newjob |
12 Apr 2024, 8:04 pm |
