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AngelL
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24 Jul 2021, 3:01 pm

A gift of the pandemic, I've come to realize how much I mask. Prior to the pandemic, being out and about in the world, I never took my mask off long enough to realize it no longer fits. After staying home for a year and a half with only brief runs to a doctor's appointment or grocery shopping once a week, it started slipping. Pulling it back up and getting it over my nose has been challenging because, apparently, my nose has gotten bigger since I first put the mask on in childhood.

At first, I was confused. What the heck was happening to me? Then I realized, the person whom I referred to as 'me' wasn't really 'me'; it was a persona I had created to cover up the real 'me' for the purposes of keeping me safe from the world. Okay, fair enough, safety first and all. But I'm not a child anymore, and I'm no longer in danger. I made the conscious decision, and set my intention, to remove and keep my mask off. I ran into a couple of issues.

First, I no longer know who I am without my mask. I've trapped myself in the habit of putting it on and it has become instinctual. I can take it off, but the moment I am not paying strict attention, it goes back on. The second issue I'm having is the one I want to focus on though. At first, I was focused on the idea of taking this neuro-typical mask off so I could reveal the 'real me', but very recently discovered that the NT mask isn't the only one I wear.

I have a very well managed, but serious mental health issue that I also mask. In addition to that one, I've discovered yet another one related to intelligence in which I mask how smart I am. In addition to that one...

So I am hoping to begin a conversation about the different masks we wear and any techniques we may have found helpful to take them off and live more authentically.



uncommondenominator
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24 Jul 2021, 4:29 pm

Think of a "mask" as nothing more than a combination of behaviors. This combination of behaviors creates a certain presentation to others. There is nothing dishonest in changing one's behavior to suit a specific situation, since different situations have different expectations. The same behaviors that are acceptable at a rock concert or a sports event are not as acceptable at a library or a church. There are different expectations, since they serve different purposes. Beyond that, whoever you choose to be, is who you are.

If you genuinely believe you have to be what everyone else expects you to be, then that IS who you are. If you later change your, mind and decide that you can be whatever you want, and if other people don't like it they can suck it, then that's who you now are. If you're indecisive and can't figure out which is the right thing to do, then that's who you are.

In your case, it sounds like you generally presented based on what you thought other people expected - but once that expectations was gone, and there was no situation that required those behaviors, you were actually free to engage in new behaviors, in response to a new situation, with totally different expectations.

Before that , it probably never occurred to you that you could be different, cos you never had the opportunity to be different - but now that you know you can, it opens up a world of possibilities. Think of behaviors like clothes. You can try them on, see how they fit. You'd be surprised how much you can "change" and still be the same person.

I have lots of behaviors. I choose them based on who I want to be, rather than what I think the world wants me to be. I am a loud person. I like being loud. But I also acknowledge that not everyone likes loud. Some people hate loud. So I CHOOSE to not be loud, when I feel it's important to me to respect others. Just cos being quiet is contrary to my desire to be loud doesn't mean I'm being "fake" - it means I am being true to something greater than simply my desire to be loud. I'm not quiet cos it is expected of me. I am quiet cos I CHOOSE to respect that in that moment, for my own reasons. I've CHOSEN to place someone else as a higher priority than myself, in that moment.

Whoever you are IS who you are. Feeling like you don't know who you are, is the first step in realizing you can be whoever you want to be. Everyone has that choice. They just may not like the consequences. If you feel like you "have to" be something, that's just you choosing that option because you prioritize the result it brings. Like when someone says "I HAVE to do what my parents say, or they'll punish me!" - they can always choose to do it anyways, and take the punishment - they didn't HAVE to do it, they CHOSE to do it, because they favored one outcome over the other.

When trying to decide who to be, it's handy to ask yourself WHY you want to be the thing you're choosing. Two people who both choose to be nice to others will still act very differently, if one of them is nice to others with the intention of making others happy with no other intention, but the other is nice to people because they expect to be compensated for their efforts.

Rather than "masking", think of it as being the "best version" of your self, for any given situation.



Mona Pereth
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24 Jul 2021, 7:12 pm

uncommondenominator wrote:
Think of a "mask" as nothing more than a combination of behaviors.

[...]

Rather than "masking", think of it as being the "best version" of your self, for any given situation.

I agree that it's best to think of masking as a combination of behaviors.

However, in your post above, you've ignored the reasons why "masking" (specifically, masking for the purpose of trying to appear NT) is problematic for autistic people:

1) Trying to appear NT means engaging in various behaviors that are much more difficult for autistic people than for NT's. Hence this kind of masking can make social interactions much more stressful and tiring than they would otherwise be.

2) Trying to appear NT can make the autistic person's social interactions less functional in terms of their actual intended purpose. For example, for many of us, eye contact is a distraction, not a help, in actually listening to what another person is saying.

3) Trying to appear NT may involve imitating some NT behaviors without fully understanding the reasons for those particular behaviors. In that case, the behavior will seem "off" to NT observers, and the mask will not be successful.

All of these issues make masking-to-look-NT bad for autistic people's health -- and very different from the much simpler kind of "masking" involved, in, for example, choosing to be loud at a sports event but be quiet in a library.


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Mona Pereth
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24 Jul 2021, 8:25 pm

AngelL wrote:
I made the conscious decision, and set my intention, to remove and keep my mask off. I ran into a couple of issues.

First, I no longer know who I am without my mask. I've trapped myself in the habit of putting it on and it has become instinctual. I can take it off, but the moment I am not paying strict attention, it goes back on.

If a given behavior has become truly "instinctual" and does not harm you in any way, then I see no reason to get rid of it. I see no reason to categorically reject all behaviors that might have been initially adopted as part of a "mask."

I would suggest getting rid of a given "masking" behavior only if it continues to be problematic in at least one of the ways I described in my post above. Otherwise, I would consider it to have become authentically a part of you.

AngelL wrote:
The second issue I'm having is the one I want to focus on though. At first, I was focused on the idea of taking this neuro-typical mask off so I could reveal the 'real me', but very recently discovered that the NT mask isn't the only one I wear.

I have a very well managed, but serious mental health issue that I also mask. In addition to that one, I've discovered yet another one related to intelligence in which I mask how smart I am. In addition to that one...

So I am hoping to begin a conversation about the different masks we wear and any techniques we may have found helpful to take them off and live more authentically.

IMO the key to living authentically is to find kindred souls and to do what one can to help build a community (in the sense of organized subculture) of kindred souls in one or more identifiable categories.

With people outside of any such community that I've been a part of, I simply don't have much to say, apart from professional and otherwise necessary interactions. I do greet my neighbors and engage in basic small talk with them, but I don't pretend to be interested in anything I'm not interested in.

Luckily I live in a highly multicultural neighborhood, with lots of immigrants from all over the world and no one dominant ethnic group. Thus, here in this neighborhood, there's not much that I feel pressured to fit in with, beyond basic politeness.


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StrayCat81
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24 Jul 2021, 10:51 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
IMO the key to living authentically is to find kindred souls and to do what one can to help build a community (in the sense of organized subculture) of kindred souls in one or more identifiable categories.

Hmm, is this even possible? How do you do it? I have problem of finding even one person that is somehow similar to myself, and here you are talking about whole community...

I could always be happily myself when alone, it's great. But as soon as there are creepy humans around, I have to do some masking (at least put on some clothes...), because doing otherwise means trouble...



uncommondenominator
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24 Jul 2021, 11:28 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
uncommondenominator wrote:
Think of a "mask" as nothing more than a combination of behaviors.

[...]

Rather than "masking", think of it as being the "best version" of your self, for any given situation.

I agree that it's best to think of masking as a combination of behaviors.

However, in your post above, you've ignored the reasons why "masking" (specifically, masking for the purpose of trying to appear NT) is problematic for autistic people:

1) Trying to appear NT means engaging in various behaviors that are much more difficult for autistic people than for NT's. Hence this kind of masking can make social interactions much more stressful and tiring than they would otherwise be.

2) Trying to appear NT can make the autistic person's social interactions less functional in terms of their actual intended purpose. For example, for many of us, eye contact is a distraction, not a help, in actually listening to what another person is saying.

3) Trying to appear NT may involve imitating some NT behaviors without fully understanding the reasons for those particular behaviors. In that case, the behavior will seem "off" to NT observers, and the mask will not be successful.

All of these issues make masking-to-look-NT bad for autistic people's health -- and very different from the much simpler kind of "masking" involved, in, for example, choosing to be loud at a sports event but be quiet in a library.


I didn't so much ignore it as I rejected it as a valid reason for masking to begin with.

In the last paragraph, I mentioned the importance of asking one's self WHY one makes the choices, or engages in the behaviors they do. In the instances you've mentioned, the reason for the behaviors is "to appear as an NT" - but who said that's a good reason? The masking itself isn't the issue - it's the assumption that the type and extent of masking being engaged in is necessary or even beneficial in the first place.

In regard to the question "why are you making this choice", the answer "to look like an NT" is only a good answer if that is the only goal. The first erroneous assumption is that one has to "look like an NT" to be accepted. You notice I didn't say "fit in". They are two different things, and not just in a "splitting hairs" sense. The second erroneous assumption is that you have to fit in to be accepted. This is also untrue. Even groups that look extremely homogenous still have differences within them.

The problem from there is, "NT's", like anyone else, are extremely diverse. NT's, like anyone else, are capable of being stupid, lazy, arrogant, selfish, awkward, greedy, entitled, mean, cruel, and anything else under the sun. If all you're doing is "acting like an NT", who's to say the NT you're acting like is worth copying? So if all you're doing is copying "what NT's do", for the reason of "acting like an NT", then yeah, without understanding WHY you're doing those things, all you could be doing is colleting bad behaviors, and layering them on top of each other. And when it doesn't work, and you respond by doubling down and adding more and more "NT behaviors" on top of that, yeah, it can become stressful and damaging. But it's also entirely self-imposed, based on the assumption that that's the right way to approach the problem in the first place.

Given that, by far, not all "NT's" have the success that we seek to have, emulating them hardly seems like the key to our own success. There's too much emphasis on the idea of "normal" - that "normal" people have "normal lives" and "normal" interactions, and if only I too was "normal" then everything would be better. There is no truth to this. Plenty of abnormal people have found success and happiness. Plenty of normal people lead miserable lonely lives. There is no checklist for success, wherein if you just do these things and be like this, everything will turn out ok.

Back to the question. WHY are you making the choice? "To look NT" is a reason, but it's not the root. The question can be asked further. "Why choose to look like an NT"? The answer, based on what you've described, would be the assumption that such actions are necessary. "Why are they necessary?" One can keep asking. Eventually there's a root. Generally, it's some form of "to make things better". Even that can take multiple forms. The point is, if the ultimate goal is to make things better, who said that it has to be done THAT way? The assumption that the action needs to be done, and to that extreme, and in that manner, is the part that does damage - in much the same way that washing ones hands is a good practice, but still becomes a problem if it becomes an obsession that interferes with functioning.

Masking is mostly harmful when done in excess, for the wrong reasons. Most things are harmful when done to excess, for the wrong reasons. It's not fair to blame the tool when you hurt yourself while using it wrong.

Often times we set unreasonable expectations. Thinking we need to make everyone happy. Thinking we can't make anyone upset. Needing to avoid conflict. Needing to avoid negativity. Needing to avoid discomfort. Using them as justifications for why we do things. But nothing prevents someone from taking the difficult path, other than their desire to avoid difficulty. Nobody ever gets stronger by doing things the easy way.

I used to approach things with the objective of "acting normal". I thought of things in terms of "I have to do this, I have to act this way, I have to be like this" - but if I'm not normal, why should I expect the normal way to work for me? Rather than saying "I can't do that", I began to ask myself what I could do instead. Are there things that I CAN do, that would result in a similar outcome? Can I take a different path, and still end up at a desirable destination? It turned out I could.

Rather than trying to not be me, I started being me, but slightly different. A quieter me. A slower me. A me that didn't have to correct people, even if they were wrong. A me that spent less time thinking about what I was going to say next, and more time listening to what was being said. A me that did things without worrying about how it was going to benefit me later, or even if it would benefit me at all. Rather than trying to use tools I was no good with, I found different tools that could yield a similar result.

There's too much focus on being "normal", or the belief that you can't be "different". and perhaps there is a grain of truth to it. But you'd be surprised just how "different" you can be before people care. You just have to pick the right "different". It's not that people dislike "different" for the fact that it's different. People don't like things that make them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, things that they don't know how to respond to, or things that are disruptive. I don't see that there's anything unreasonable on that list.

If you're masking in an attempt to hide everything about yourself, and behaving entirely based on what you think other people expect to see, it's really bad for the individual - but not because masking is bad, but because it's being done in an unhealthy way, for the wrong reasons. It may be a difficulty that we autistics face MORE, or more SEVERELY, but it's certainly not rare among NT's either. Plenty of NT's only do what they do cos they think its what's expected of them. Just cos it seems to "work" for them, and even just cos they "succeed", doesn't mean their efforts aren't secretly killing them behind the mask, just as much as it would anyone here. Strange as it may sound, success doesn't necessarily lead to happiness. Even millionaires and rock stars kill themselves.

Some people want to "have friends" but don't want to BE a friend - want to "have a partner" but don't want to BE a partner - want to "be liked" but don't want to become likeable. They may seem like minor differences, but it can make a world of difference. Too often, when people say they wish they could "be normal" what they really mean is, they think that "being normal" is the key to success or happiness, and only if they too were normal, life would be better.

Life is complicated, and not so easily solved. Everyone's puzzle is unique and different. The answer isn't always what you think it is. The more behaviors you learn, the more tools you have to try to solve future problems, and the more prepared you'll be to face the unexpected. Don't limit yourself by thinking there are "right" things and "wrong" things. Think rather of the degree to which something is effective or ineffective. Same goes for "succeed" or "fail" - what did it do, what didn't it do, what could be done different, what could be done better - could something else entirely be done.

Ask the deeper questions.



Mona Pereth
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25 Jul 2021, 6:56 am

StrayCat81 wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
IMO the key to living authentically is to find kindred souls and to do what one can to help build a community (in the sense of organized subculture) of kindred souls in one or more identifiable categories.

Hmm, is this even possible? How do you do it? I have problem of finding even one person that is somehow similar to myself, and here you are talking about whole community...

Agreed that finding even one person in category X is often hard. But I have found that the (relatively) easiest way to find even one person in category X is often to look for a group of people in category X -- and then, if such a group turns out either to not exist or to be too cliquish to absorb newcomers, it becomes necessary to launch my own group of people in category X.

Or, even if I do find a perfectly fine group of people in category X, then I've often found that the (relatively) easiest way to win respect there was either to launch my own group of people in overlapping category Y, or, if possible, to help someone else in group X launch a group in overlapping category Y. (Helping someone else can be much easier than being the main leader.)

Launching a group is a lot of work. How I've done it has varied quite a bit, but most often it has involved some variation of the following steps:

1) Do a lot of reading on the topic at hand. Take notes.

2) Create a website or blog. (Back in the old days, write articles for publication in small-press periodicals, then start one's own newsletter/fanzine/whatever.)

3) Use Meetup.com, and find various other non-spammy ways to promote one's group both online and offline.

Growth is likely to be slow, especially at first, but that's okay.

It helps a lot to live in, or very near to, a large cosmopolitan city.

StrayCat81 wrote:
I could always be happily myself when alone, it's great. But as soon as there are creepy humans around, I have to do some masking (at least put on some clothes...), because doing otherwise means trouble...

Pressures to conform vary greatly depending on where one lives. IMO the ideal kind of place for autistic people is a neighborhood similar to the one I'm living in now, with lots of immigrants from many different countries around the world and no one dominant ethnic group.


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Last edited by Mona Pereth on 25 Jul 2021, 7:16 am, edited 3 times in total.

Mona Pereth
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25 Jul 2021, 6:57 am

uncommondenominator wrote:
I used to approach things with the objective of "acting normal". I thought of things in terms of "I have to do this, I have to act this way, I have to be like this" - but if I'm not normal, why should I expect the normal way to work for me? Rather than saying "I can't do that", I began to ask myself what I could do instead. Are there things that I CAN do, that would result in a similar outcome? Can I take a different path, and still end up at a desirable destination? It turned out I could.

Rather than trying to not be me, I started being me, but slightly different. A quieter me. A slower me. A me that didn't have to correct people, even if they were wrong. A me that spent less time thinking about what I was going to say next, and more time listening to what was being said. A me that did things without worrying about how it was going to benefit me later, or even if it would benefit me at all. Rather than trying to use tools I was no good with, I found different tools that could yield a similar result.

All of the above are very good points that I think would benefit us all to keep in mind.

uncommondenominator wrote:
There's too much focus on being "normal", or the belief that you can't be "different". and perhaps there is a grain of truth to it. But you'd be surprised just how "different" you can be before people care. You just have to pick the right "different". It's not that people dislike "different" for the fact that it's different. People don't like things that make them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, things that they don't know how to respond to, or things that are disruptive. I don't see that there's anything unreasonable on that list.

Also to be added to the above list: things that they have been taught to despise, or things contrary to the current fashion in their peer group -- and some of these things can be extremely unreasonable.

Anyhow, what makes people feel "uncomfortable or unsafe," or what sorts of things they "don't know how to respond to," varies a lot depending the people's cultural background and circumstances.

That's why I think it's so important to try to find a social milieu in which one's eccentricities will be tolerated at the very least -- and, if possible, appreciated.


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StrayCat81
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25 Jul 2021, 7:07 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
Launching a group is a lot of work. How I've done it has varied quite a bit, but most often it has involved some variation of the following steps:[...]

What kind of groups have you launched that way and what are the results?

I wouldn't even know what kind of group it should be... "Group for total hermits like StrayCat81"? :3



Mona Pereth
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25 Jul 2021, 7:43 am

StrayCat81 wrote:
What kind of groups have you launched that way and what are the results?

Various kinds, including hobby-oriented groups, political activist groups, and peer support groups. Results have varied.

Currently, Groups led or facilitated by members of the Autistic Peer Leadership Group (APLeG).

StrayCat81 wrote:
I wouldn't even know what kind of group it should be... "Group for total hermits like StrayCat81"? :3

Do you have any hobbies?

Anyhow, to bring this thread back onto the topic of masking vs. being one's true self:

I think it's important to distinguish between (1) attempts to blend in with NT's and (2) what I call "autistic-friendly social skills" -- i.e. the kinds of skills we would need in order to get along with each other even if there were no pressure to blend in with NT's. By autistic-friendly social skills I mean, primarily, autistic-friendly variants of both assertiveness (see the separate thread here on Assertiveness) and active listening (see the separate thread here on Active listening). See also the separate WP thread on Autistic-friendly social skills vs. blending in with NT's.


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Last edited by Mona Pereth on 25 Jul 2021, 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

AngelL
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25 Jul 2021, 8:42 am

uncommondenominator wrote:
Ask the deeper questions.


Clearly you consider yourself to be such a person. As such, it's going to be difficult to explain to you what it is that you're missing here, but I'm going to give it a whirl. One whirl.

uncommondenominator wrote:
In the last paragraph, I mentioned the importance of asking one's self WHY one makes the choices, or engages in the behaviors they do. "When trying to decide who to be, it's handy to ask yourself WHY you want to be the thing you're choosing."


In my original post I explained that I masked to protect my physical safety. While that was a choice, I think I was very clear about WHY. Just as Robert Downey Jr. literally putting on a mask to play Iron Man doesn't mean he IS Iron Man, putting on a mask for a job, or to stay safe doesn't mean that's who you are.

uncommondenominator wrote:
I have lots of behaviors. I choose them based on who I want to be, rather than what I think the world wants me to be. I am a loud person. I like being loud. But I also acknowledge that not everyone likes loud. Some people hate loud. So I CHOOSE to not be loud, when I feel it's important to me to respect others. Just cos being quiet is contrary to my desire to be loud doesn't mean I'm being "fake" - it means I am being true to something greater than simply my desire to be loud. I'm not quiet cos it is expected of me. I am quiet cos I CHOOSE to respect that in that moment, for my own reasons. I've CHOSEN to place someone else as a higher priority than myself, in that moment.


Yeah, not what I'm talking about. A loud person choosing to be quiet out of respect for people other than themselves is NOT what I was talking about. Adhering to societal norms by modifying behaviors that you still possess and have access to - is completely different than modifying your self. In one case, it is the behavior which is inappropriate, in the case of the latter, it is the person that is identified as 'inappropriate'. Modifying, or masking, behavior because the behavior is 'wrong' for the time and place is fine. Modifying, or masking, who you are because you feel that you are 'wrong' for the time and place is not.

And although these would fall into a completely different category than simple politeness described above, here's some further examples of masking that I'm NOT talking about: A depressed person acting cheerful. Appearing relaxed when you are anxious. Behaving in a controlling manner to protect you from betrayal. Becoming a perfectionist to protect you from abandonment.

uncommondenominator wrote:
Think of a "mask" as nothing more than a combination of behaviors. This combination of behaviors creates a certain presentation to others. There is nothing dishonest in changing one's behavior to suit a specific situation, since different situations have different expectations. The same behaviors that are acceptable at a rock concert or a sports event are not as acceptable at a library or a church. There are different expectations, since they serve different purposes. Beyond that, whoever you choose to be, is who you are.


I am not a violent person; not in the least. Be that as it may be, I've served in six combat zones. I did many violent things in order to return home, but did not return home a violent man. I returned home a man who did what he had to in order to return home. When I ask myself who I am, I don't seek the answer in the desperate behavior of a man under live fire, with the desire to live. Likewise, putting on the mask I originally spoke of, was to keep me alive. Unfortunately, that war lasted longer than any others I've been in.

This isn't my quote - it's from a guy named Samuel something-or-other, but it's a good one: The chains of habit are too light to be felt until they are too strong to be broken. And so, it became a habit to stay alive and that required me to wear a mask. It was required for so long, that I forgot it was there and behaving that way became an automatic response to society. As I said originally, the pandemic, and long periods of time not interacting with society allowed those masks to slip. Had this way that I chose to present to the world been who I really was - there would have been no mask to slip!



Mona Pereth
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25 Jul 2021, 10:50 am

AngelL wrote:
Yeah, not what I'm talking about. A loud person choosing to be quiet out of respect for people other than themselves is NOT what I was talking about. Adhering to societal norms by modifying behaviors that you still possess and have access to - is completely different than modifying your self. In one case, it is the behavior which is inappropriate, in the case of the latter, it is the person that is identified as 'inappropriate'. Modifying, or masking, behavior because the behavior is 'wrong' for the time and place is fine. Modifying, or masking, who you are because you feel that you are 'wrong' for the time and place is not.

And although these would fall into a completely different category than simple politeness described above, here's some further examples of masking that I'm NOT talking about: A depressed person acting cheerful. Appearing relaxed when you are anxious. Behaving in a controlling manner to protect you from betrayal. Becoming a perfectionist to protect you from abandonment.

Would the following be examples of what you ARE talking about?

1) A gay person pretending to be heterosexual?

2) A person utterly uninterested in sports pretending to be interested in sports in order to fit in with neighbors, classmates, or co-workers?

AngelL wrote:
This isn't my quote - it's from a guy named Samuel something-or-other, but it's a good one: The chains of habit are too light to be felt until they are too strong to be broken. And so, it became a habit to stay alive and that required me to wear a mask. It was required for so long, that I forgot it was there and behaving that way became an automatic response to society. As I said originally, the pandemic, and long periods of time not interacting with society allowed those masks to slip. Had this way that I chose to present to the world been who I really was - there would have been no mask to slip!

Can you tell us more specifically what you mean by the mask slipping? For example, there there specific things you started doing that you've never or rarely done before, or at least not since early childhood? Are there specific things you've stopped doing? And what makes these things feel like they are central to your identity in a very deep way? Tell us the specifics only if you feel comfortable revealing them to us, of course.


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StrayCat81
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

Joined: 24 Jul 2021
Age: 43
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 214
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

25 Jul 2021, 3:39 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
Do you have any hobbies?

Yeah, but people who share them are still gross and annoying to deal with. Sadly, I sometimes have to do some interaction, and this brings masking. How can I hide better that I despise those people? Should I learn to lie better?

I can do basic politeness, to the point that NTs often think I like them. This works fine for short interactions. But how do I interact long term with humans I don't like?

I feel this is relevant to the topic, since shows an example case where living authentically would most likely compromise ability to experience some hobbies.



Mona Pereth
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,810
Location: New York City (Queens)

25 Jul 2021, 4:04 pm

StrayCat81 wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
Do you have any hobbies?

Yeah, but people who share them are still gross and annoying to deal with. Sadly, I sometimes have to do some interaction, and this brings masking. How can I hide better that I despise those people? Should I learn to lie better?

In what specific ways do you find these people to be gross and annoying? And what do you despise about them?

What traits would a person need to have in order to not be gross and annoying to you?

StrayCat81 wrote:
I can do basic politeness, to the point that NTs often think I like them. This works fine for short interactions. But how do I interact long term with humans I don't like?

I think the important question is what kinds of humans you could possibly like. (And then the next question after that is how you could go about finding them.)


_________________
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- Autistic peer-led groups (via text-based chat, currently) led or facilitated by members of the Autistic Peer Leadership Group.
- My Twitter / "X" (new as of 2021)


StrayCat81
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

Joined: 24 Jul 2021
Age: 43
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 214
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

25 Jul 2021, 4:37 pm

Good questions. I don't like humans because they are dangerous, like ticking time bombs. So I always have to learn what to say in order to defuse them, which is not easy since humans make little sense to me, expecially ego part. It's tiring and annoying to feel constantly unsafe in their presence. Humans being always in heat also makes me feel unsafe with them.

Someone I could possibly like would need to be timid, curious and simple, like me, and many other nonhuman animals. So I think that basically excludes humans as a whole, because huge egos and viciousness is kinda defining trait for humans? Or I actually can find humans like myself? If yes, how?



AngelL
Deinonychus
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Joined: 13 Jul 2021
Gender: Male
Posts: 349
Location: Seattle, WA

25 Jul 2021, 5:11 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
AngelL wrote:
Yeah, not what I'm talking about. A loud person choosing to be quiet out of respect for people other than themselves is NOT what I was talking about. Adhering to societal norms by modifying behaviors that you still possess and have access to - is completely different than modifying your self. In one case, it is the behavior which is inappropriate, in the case of the latter, it is the person that is identified as 'inappropriate'. Modifying, or masking, behavior because the behavior is 'wrong' for the time and place is fine. Modifying, or masking, who you are because you feel that you are 'wrong' for the time and place is not.

And although these would fall into a completely different category than simple politeness described above, here's some further examples of masking that I'm NOT talking about: A depressed person acting cheerful. Appearing relaxed when you are anxious. Behaving in a controlling manner to protect you from betrayal. Becoming a perfectionist to protect you from abandonment.

Would the following be examples of what you ARE talking about?

1) A gay person pretending to be heterosexual?

2) A person utterly uninterested in sports pretending to be interested in sports in order to fit in with neighbors, classmates, or co-workers?


Yes, this is what I'm talking about. I would emphasize your first example, although ironically, in my very first post here on WP, I wrote:

"...when I am forced into a conversation, I can direct it to the topic I prepared. i.e. "Oh my gawd, can you believe the men's Olympic basketball team lost again last night? I mean, they've only ever lost two games between 1992 and last week - and then in two days, they've lost another two! Heck, Kevin Durant, arguably the best player on Team USA, only scored 17 points and was under 50% from the floor! What the heck's going on?" Then sit back and let them talk because I've never watched a basketball game, don't know the rules, couldn't pick Kevin Durant out of a line-up of two people, and really, really - can't stress this enough - don't care. But it get's me out of a conversation I won't be able to follow..."

I mentioned mental illness above as well, without giving a concrete example, but let me do that now. I have dissociative identity disorder which is better known by the now defunct name multiple personality disorder. There are four of us in the system - myself and three child alters. For the last nearly twenty-nine years we have been what is referred to as co-conscious. That means that everyone can be aware of what is going on at all times, although there is rarely more than two paying attention - and we can communicate in real time with each other. It is uncommon to have the kind of cooperation we have, but not unheard of. Anyway, the point I was looking to make is that at home, we tend to communicate with each other audibly - where if other people were around they would hear what sounds like me talking to myself (which I suppose it is in one way) but we are actually oscillating between each other fast enough to have a conversation. It's probably not a surprise that we don't communicate this way at the grocery store - masking.

AngelL wrote:
This isn't my quote - it's from a guy named Samuel something-or-other, but it's a good one: The chains of habit are too light to be felt until they are too strong to be broken. And so, it became a habit to stay alive and that required me to wear a mask. It was required for so long, that I forgot it was there and behaving that way became an automatic response to society. As I said originally, the pandemic, and long periods of time not interacting with society allowed those masks to slip. Had this way that I chose to present to the world been who I really was - there would have been no mask to slip!


Mona Pereth wrote:
Can you tell us more specifically what you mean by the mask slipping? For example, there there specific things you started doing that you've never or rarely done before, or at least not since early childhood? Are there specific things you've stopped doing? And what makes these things feel like they are central to your identity in a very deep way? Tell us the specifics only if you feel comfortable revealing them to us, of course.


Sure. While there are certainly things I've started and stopped recently that haven't been around since childhood, the most significant realization is that I am terrified of people. To be clear, I'm not speaking about being afraid of social interactions with people, though that is there as well. No, I'm talking about being in fear for my life. I recognize the feeling - I just haven't felt it in a half century. What I thought I had dealt with had simply been buried. At four they referred to me as a musical prodigy. By five years old I refused to play or even listen to music. Five hours a day worth of practice could make anyone hate music. I don't know if I've ever had a car in which the radio worked because I've never tried to turn it on. Eight months ago I picked up the harmonica - six months ago I started the violin; both are instruments I've never even thought about playing before.

I almost got a C in college, marring my 4.0. The class was Art, Music, Theatre Appreciation. Can't tell you how much I loathed that class. Nevertheless, when I discovered what my grade was going to be I approached the instructors (it was taught by the three heads of each respective department because it was an Honor's Program class) and told them that I was going to utilize the school rules that said that if you didn't like your grade you could retake the class and have your original grade expunged. Faced with having me in the class again, I got my A. Anyway, in February I started acrylic painting...like who are you and what have you done with AngelL?

What's been most disconcerting though...well there's a couple of things vying for that title actually. I have started stimming in ways that I haven't since I was that very small child. And...I don't know if this is going to make sense (apologies if it doesn't) becoming aware of habitual thought patterns and choosing not to act on them, I am finding myself defaulting to the habitual thought that I had before that. Yeah, that's not very clear, so let me give an example. Unfortunately, the only one I can think of at the moment is from my dad's life - not mine, but it's a good one. My father had his own business which he ran as a one man operation. He dealt with the public everyday and has a horrible memory for names. So he took to calling everyone 'Smiley'. Years later (like 15 or so) he changed it to 'My second best friend' as in, "Hey look! It's my second-best friend." Since everyone couldn't actually be his second best friend, it became a joke. Dementia took hold and he's lost recent memories...now he doesn't remember that everyone has been his 'second-best friend' for thirty years or more - now everyone is 'Smiley' again. It's like that for me - except I haven't forgotten the ways I acted/interacted only a couple years ago...I just can't do it any longer. When I stopped acting/interacting with the persona I created in childhood, I defaulted back to what was there before.