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DGuru
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17 May 2013, 10:24 pm

We live in a describable world. A world that is at its base a concrete world of matter and energy so why can't people just describe the precise things that I need to do to do well socially. JUST TELL ME! Don't make me guess. Just give me all the rules. And then tell me the rules for how to parse out liars and concealers who would just make me guess.

I don't believe in the "Self" construct anymore. I believe that it is an oppressive idea that makes people cling to however they find themselves at the moment forever. The construct of "Self" is USELESS to me except for which ever ways are the right ways to use the term and related ideas in the precise expression in various social contexts.

EXPLICATE these things and I will have no problem performing them to get what ever I want for myself or for that which or who I care about.

JUST TELL ME.



schizoid26
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17 May 2013, 10:36 pm

Ditto



Anomiel
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18 May 2013, 12:11 am

There are instructions already available but you will have to teach yourself.
Factual books about body language, gestures, manipulation (not the PUA kind), emotions, "small-talk" (as NT-communication is often described). And much more.
Entire fields of science, like sociology as it describes modern culture, anthropology, psychology and neuroscience.
Only read the best books, look at the reviews and if they seem to make sense to you and if the author know what they are talking about.
Having a sense of self is not worthless. Socializing is not the most important thing in the whole world, no matter how people talk about us autistics, even though it is a very useful skill to have. You can still keep the core of yourself at all times, even when engaging in communication with NTs. You have to understand that changing hurts, but you do not have to change your entire being, which is a mistake many make when they first realize change is possible. Don't go overboard. You are valuable even if you would not be able - or want to - learn this, or use these skills when you have. All of it is not correct either but you will have to figure that out for yourself.

Buddha wrote:
Don't blindly believe what I say. Don't believe me because others convince you of my words. Don't believe anything you see, read, or hear from others, whether of authority, religious teachers or texts. Don't rely on logic alone, nor speculation. Don't infer or be deceived by appearances.
Do not give up your authority and follow blindly the will of others. This way will lead to only delusion.
Find out for yourself what is truth, what is real. Discover that there are virtuous things and there are non-virtuous things. Once you have discovered for yourself give up the bad and embrace the good.



DGuru
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18 May 2013, 12:29 am

I thought about social construct theory and realized that "self" and the associated concepts were just taught to me by society. My true "self" is just me as a body, as a being of matter and energy that interacts with its environment. Anything more than that is just extra stuff and quite frankly in the words self-worshippers use I wouldn't be being myself to take it seriously. My self is defined by my goals (the interactions I want with the environment) not the clothes I wear, not my tone of voice, not whether I am an introvert or an extravert. I don't care about those things, the only things I consider worthy of my 'self-concept' for lack of a better term are goal fulfillment. I've realized feelings are real but they are information. They can help shine light on what to do to get to my goals. That is it.
EDIT: And now my number one overriding goal besides staying alive and in good physical health, getting through college, and making an adequate amount of money is to master social situations so why not? Why can't a "self" want that? I'm supposed to not want it because I'm not as good at it relative to other people right now? I want it more than anything and will do anything for it, because it is my goal.



Anomiel
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18 May 2013, 12:37 am

Of course you can want that. Then learn.



Mishra2012
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18 May 2013, 3:37 am

I'm learning the "art of deception", how to lie. I hope to find someone that can teach me face to face; for now reading, observing others and chatting is good enough. My issue is lying bothers me and kinda throws me off. Studying psychology has helped me a lot only in understanding others or having a mental cheat sheet; not sure anything can help me be "normal" and get others to accept me. Good luck!


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WrongWay
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20 May 2013, 8:40 am

Actually there are many books and websites out there that give instructions. For example http://www.succeedsocially.com/ seems to be a good resource. The problem is just reading these isn't enough to really be good, you have to practice and not every situation can be explained in words. Also, most 'rules' aren't absolutes, they're usually just guidelines and there are times when it is appropriate to break the 'rules' and knowing when to do so is more a matter of judgment than anything else.


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DGuru
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20 May 2013, 5:08 pm

More specifically I want to know the clothes to wear, music to listen to, ways of talking and how it relates to the ways people will see my personality.
I'm not going to say exactly what I'm trying to portray here so I'd need to hear about not just what do people like because good social skills, optimal social skills would mean being able to modulate how others take me like a chameleon.
I'm not attached to being an introvert or an extravert. How could I when I'm not even sure where convention puts the lines between them? I'm not attached to my hair color, to my voice, to anything about myself other than that I want to master the social game. So all those things most other people internalize as their "self" are tools for me to use since my "self" is about learning the various ways in which I may effect how other people see me and coming to be in control of that.
After that, who knows...But this is who I am now.



Janissy
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20 May 2013, 6:14 pm

DGuru wrote:
More specifically I want to know the clothes to wear, music to listen to, ways of talking and how it relates to the ways people will see my personality.
I'm not going to say exactly what I'm trying to portray here so I'd need to hear about not just what do people like because good social skills, optimal social skills would mean being able to modulate how others take me like a chameleon.]


Yes, clothes, music choices (if you share those choices with others) and ways of talking will present a certain image to people. The catch is, the image it presents depends on what group is viewing you. Clothes, music and speech are all social signifiers (they impart meaning that is read by members of a social group) but that meaning will vary. Without knowing exactly what you are trying to portray (and to whom) it is impossible to give you a list of clothes/music/speech patterns. Even knowing that, the only people who can give you such a list are members of the group you aspire to be part of (or to look like). The entire field of sociology is devoted to parsing out these particulars for different cultures and subcultures and new subcultures are created faster than sociologists can write books about them. You think you are asking for a small thing but what you are asking for is like saying "just give me a list of all the websites on the internet". The amount of information is that huge.

Quote:
I'm not attached to being an introvert or an extravert. How could I when I'm not even sure where convention puts the lines between them? I'm not attached to my hair color, to my voice, to anything about myself other than that I want to master the social game. So all those things most other people internalize as their "self" are tools for me to use since my "self" is about learning the various ways in which I may effect how other people see me and coming to be in control of that.
After that, who knows...But this is who I am now.


So you aspire to be Zelig. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelig What you need to do if you are serious about this is figure out exactly what group you are aspiring to be like and then go to their websites. On those websites will be lists of what members of that group consider appropriate clothing, music and slang.

There is no generic group. There is no such thing as an all-purpose clothing/speech/slang that will fit you in anywhere. The rules of each culture and subculture are different so nobody can give you a list of "the rules" that will fit for any group.



FMX
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26 May 2013, 3:21 am

I think I understand what you want, but I'm afraid it's not that simple. Social interactions are far too complex for any set of instructions to apply to all of them (or even a significant number of them). Social ability is not the ability to act based on instructions, it's the ability to know for yourself what to do.

Your question is like a person wanting to get good at programming saying "just tell me the exact code to type and I will type it". Sure, someone could do that, but then they would be the ones programming. You would only be typing. It would be useful at the very start of your learning, but wouldn't get you far by itself, because programming is not about typing - it's about figuring out what to type. It's like that with social interaction, too, but even harder, because it's so much less deterministic.