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Spiderpig
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03 Jul 2015, 6:43 pm

nerdygirl wrote:
You are only explaining here how one culture can enforce it's values on other people. You are not explaining how the judgment is made in the first place.


Isn't that part obvious? Same values as me = good; different = bad.


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nerdygirl
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03 Jul 2015, 9:08 pm

Spiderpig wrote:
nerdygirl wrote:
You are only explaining here how one culture can enforce it's values on other people. You are not explaining how the judgment is made in the first place.


Isn't that part obvious? Same values as me = good; different = bad.


I addressed this in my original post. :roll:

The idea of morals/values changing according to the times... So, if you are hurt, TOO BAD. None of us here on WP should ever complain about being mistreated by NTs or anyone else. Their values are obviously more upright than ours and allow them to mistreat us. No injustice done.

When morality (and justice) are defined by human societies, obviously the "stronger" wins and defines "right and wrong." So, there is NO PURPOSE to defending victims of injustice. Obviously, they are too weak and should be ignored. If we help the victims of injustice, ARE WE NOT APPEALING TO A HIGHER AUTHORITY than the strong?



lostonearth35
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03 Jul 2015, 9:19 pm

People want an explanation to the inexplicable so badly they'll just make something up if they can't find a true answer. People are frightened by the thought that when we die, that's it. There's no heaven or afterlife and it's like we never existed in the first place (unless it's in the memories of people still living). Who wants to believe all we do is become maggot food, even if that's the truth?

Also people want to believe that people who did, evil horrible things will be punished while people who did good are rewarded at the end, especially since that often doesn't happen in real life. Or if they do horrible things but think if they pray and believe God will forgive them. And some people have really strange ideas about what's wrong and right. It wasn't that long ago that people would have said my parents and I would be burning in hell because all three of us are left-handed!



Densaugeo
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04 Jul 2015, 10:51 am

nerdygirl wrote:
Densaugeo wrote:
While ideas of justice - including religious ideas - change over time, I think that's a good thing. The justice of a few hundred years ago included slavery, conquest, and many other evils. The justice of Christianity changes regularly, as well: in just a few years, I have seen many religious people go from believing homosexuals are destroying the culture, to talking about 'loving the sinner'. This isn't an isolated effect in a few denominations, it's a general trend affecting most Christians.

While justice may be culturally determined, the culture in turn is determined by people. If you don't like your culture's justice, then you can work to change it, especially if you're in a democratic country. Justice will never be perfect or complete - even if you believe in a god, you must still acknowledge that the humans of a religion are imperfect - but belief in a changeable justice allows it to be improved. Not only improved, but also adapted to new circumstances.


I agree that we should work towards having good justice in the here-and-now as best we can. Ultimately, human justice systems are at best a tarnished reflection of true justice. That's the way it is in an imperfect world.


That's true.

nerdygirl wrote:
How can one culture call another culture wrong, though? If justice is culturally determined, then we shouldn't have any say over what is right and wrong, which carried out to its full extent will result in chaos and endless conflict (which we already see) as cultures fight against each other due to differing values/morals and ideas of justice.


I wouldn't call another culture wrong, because that is a subjective claim that depends on your point of view. However, I do make factual claims about other cultures - for example, if their moral system allows slavery - and ask which sort you would rather have. You may not have the right to tell other people or cultures what to do, but you do have the right to decide what you yourself will do, as well as the right to offer suggestions and ask questions (provided you in turn consider the ideas of others).

nerdygirl wrote:
The Bible doesn't change. Views of it has changed, and one can argue over whether certain views are more- or less- in line with what the Bible teaches, and frankly that should be left up to the people who actually know and understand the Bible fully, which is not most people.


Find a Protestant and a Catholic Bible, and check their tables of contents. There are several books that Protestants removed from their version of the Bible. That's just one of many, many examples of ways the Bible has changed.

nerdygirl wrote:
Justice is different than morals. They are related, but they are not the same. Justice is calling someone to account when they have wronged another. Morals reflect values.


I'd say we have a different idea of justice. The first definition I found, from one of those Google answer boxes:

1. just behavior or treatment.

"a concern for justice, peace, and genuine respect for people"

synonyms: fairness, justness, fair play, fair-mindedness, equity, evenhandedness, impartiality, objectivity, neutrality, disinterestedness, honesty, righteousness, morals, morality

Justice includes more than punishing crime. Incidentally, morality is listed as a synonym.

Spiderpig wrote:
By conquering it, thus proving to be superior according to the only universal law---the law of the jungle. Victors get to write history to make the defeated look like soulless degenerates, not the other way round.


You could do that, but I would not wish to live in such a culture. There is a reason why so many Western scholars have recently been reexamining the roots of Western culture, and why international affairs since WW2 have taken a turn towards ending colonialism and respecting other nations' sovereignty (with a few notable exceptions...).



nerdygirl
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04 Jul 2015, 11:05 am

Densaugeo wrote:
I'd say we have a different idea of justice. The first definition I found, from one of those Google answer boxes:

1. just behavior or treatment.

"a concern for justice, peace, and genuine respect for people"

synonyms: fairness, justness, fair play, fair-mindedness, equity, evenhandedness, impartiality, objectivity, neutrality, disinterestedness, honesty, righteousness, morals, morality

Justice includes more than punishing crime. Incidentally, morality is listed as a synonym.


From merriam-webster.com

Full Definition of JUSTICE
1
a : the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments
b : judge
c : the administration of law; especially : the establishment or determination of rights according to the rules of law or equity

2
a : the quality of being just, impartial, or fair
b (1) : the principle or ideal of just dealing or right action (2) : conformity to this principle or ideal : righteousness
c : the quality of conforming to law

3
: conformity to truth, fact, or reason : correctness

Justice and morality may be related and are not the same thing. While justice may be more than punishing a crime, it is not less. We cannot have justice without due punishment of a crime. That is why we talk about "seeking justice" on behalf of the victim when a criminal case is before the courts, along with other kinds of cases.

What about people within the same culture? What is you decide that cheating and lying are wrong, but your neighbor decides they are perfectly OK and you get hurt in the process? There's societal culture and even family culture. When does the "each person decides for himself" end?



Densaugeo
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05 Jul 2015, 1:27 pm

If my neighbor were cheating and lying, and I told them they were not allowed to, I suspect they would ignore me. Telling someone they are wrong is not a good way to change behavior, and it almost never works.

In very severe cases, the rest of society may declare their actions a crime and agree to punish them. However, when any severe punishment is done unilaterally by one person, that is also a crime.

In other cases, while you may not be able to tell your neighbor what to do, you can try asking nicely, negotiating, or bargaining. Basically, things that you can do in real life with other adults.