I wish I had female friends

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This site has vastly improved in that regard compared to a few years ago.

I'm bad at managing the quotes so I just put it like this. Anyway:

Yes, people assume things, but how could they not? They're not mindreaders and can't exactly go around asking everyone in sight what goes on it their minds. If you want someone to know for sure how you really feel, you need to communicate. Besides, aren't you also assuming things about other people? Just in that message you assumed that they assume you to be someone who doesn't feel things like they do. You have no facts to support this (unless people have said to you that it's what they think), you just assume so 'cause you aren't getting any attention.

Also, it's extremely unlikely that your social skills will ever get better if you don't practice. I used to make the same kinds of mistakes you're listing all the time, too, but now I don't do them nearly as often thanks to practice.

If you have a messy appearance then that really might be a reason for hostile behaviour towards you; you come across as troublesome and/or dangerous. Now, while people shouldn't judge others by appearance too much, paying some attention to a person's looks and behaviour is a must since dangerous people do exist. By avoiding people who look certain way, one can lessen the amount of trouble they get in to. Sure, they're likely to make some misses and accidentally judge a decent person, but for them that's a small price to pay if it means that they can also avoid the ones who are dangerous for real. I also do this by staying away from all drunk people (save for those that I know are safe, though my eardrums are in danger when near my drunk cousins) to avoid trouble. Some of them might be nice company, but I'd rather not risk it. I also stay away from very messy looking people since they're often drunks, too; I can smell it. Might have avoided some decent people because of it, but better safe than sorry.

I'm not sure if those advisors were really spreading bad rumors about you... I mean, from what I understood, you got stuck and took way longer with your research than you should have, right? Telling that to other people isn't wrong; it's actually right to inform people about what they're getting in to. It's not wrong to let the people who might work with you know that you might take long and take up lot of their time. Of course, if they spread a word that you're taking so long because you're lazy or something then that's bad, but if they just let others know that your projects tend to take long then it's not like they lied.

From what I've gathered through observation and stories, most people get only a select few members of the opposite sex talking to them out of the blue. The ones who get plenty of attention are the unsually goodlooking and/or charismatic ones. I'm certainly not one of those.
And no, of course you don't mean to give them a cold shoulder, but how could they know that? People aren't mind readers, so mistakes happen.

I only quoted example number 2 since I have a comment on it: why should they have invited you to spend time with them often? Did you invite them over often? If not, then there's nothing odd about it. You see, friendships and relationships (especially the later) are about giving and receiving. If someone always has to be the giver and never gets to be the receiver, they usually get tired of that kind of relationship pretty often. You can't just expect others to do all the work; you have to invite them to do things too, you need to start conversations too. If you always leave all the planning and making the first move to the opposite party, you'll likely come across as uninterested or lazy.

Actually, there were situations in which they openly told me what they assumed, I corrected their assumption, and they didn't seem to believe me. For example

a) There was a girl I met on a dating site who got mad at me when I hanged up on her so that a neighbor won't see me talking to her, since my mom might visit me and the neighbor would tell her I am with someone. She accused me of being ashamed of her and I kept telling her I wasn't. Then she said "don't you realize I want you to be happy". So apparently the issue was "me" not her. So I was telling her, of course I would be happier with her than without her. If that wasn't the case, why would I be arguing with her? What would I possibly gain out of that argument other than her being with me -- and why would I want to go to those lengths for that, if that won't make me happy? She didn't answer that question. Then also, during that argument, she told me "I listened to all your messages and not a single one says please don't break up with me, therefore I am breaking up with you". But wait a second: even if I didn't say "please don't break up with me" in those exact words, wasn't this the point of all my messages?

b) There was a different girl, whom I also met on a dating site, who asked me whether or not I am capable of feeling love if Sheldon wasn't. I told her I was. To be fair, she talked to me the whole day so its not like she shut me down from the get go. But the way the conversation went is that she made that kind of assumption from the get-go, and asked me if she was right -- so I corrected her. Then few hours later she again came back to me with this assumption, so then I corrected it again. Then a while later she again made that assumption. Then eventually I lost the temper, and that temper tantrum pushed her off.

c) There was a girl to whom I been talking online for two years. During our first conversation, she told me she wanted to be just friends because of the distance, and it was okay with me. So I was complaining about my relationship issues with a different girl and she was complaining about her relationship issues with some guy. The latter drew us closer since she liked that I seemed supportive. But then she broke up with that guy and I got over that girl and I switched to talking about a different girl, the one from several years ago. Meanwhile, she made some indications that "between the lines" sounded like she liked me, so I wasn't sure what to make of it since she told me she wanted to be just friends at the first conersation. So I decided to act as if we were just friends yet, in my head, I kept obsessing whether it was a mistake or not. Then, at some point, I was obsessing over one incident with that girl from the past I kept complaining to her about, so I just yelled "at her" in order to get out my anger. That really pushed her away. Then when I noticed she continued to be distant during our subsequent conversations I eventually asked her about it and she told me "I don't think its going to work out". So then I realized that she WAS in fact hoping to pursue a relationship with me prior to that. So then I started to argue with her why can't she give me another chance. At some point in that argument she told me "I want to feel loved" -- thus implying that I am incapable of love. And the other thing she told me was "I think I should date an artist rather than a scientist since I am quite emotional". But you see, scientists fall in love too, so I think she used the word "scientist" as a "polite" way of saying "someone with Asperger", thus insinuating I can't love due to my Asperger.

d) There was a girl whom I met on a dating site and much of my conversation with her was about my schooling and my ex-s. Then the next day when I sensed she was losing interest I actually asked her whether or not she did, and she admitted that she did -- because I talked about ex-s. So then I started telling her that I am over those ex-s, that they are from few years ago anyway and it would be stupid of me to still be clinging to them. So then she changed from "just friends" to "friends for now and then lets see", but it still sounded like she wanted to be just friends and only made it slightly softer so that I won't argue with her. So I continued arguing, and then she said that she has hard time trusting guys anyway because they leave, and she also mentioned that I was older than her (she was 26 and I was 37 -- yes right now I am 39, but that conversation was 2 years ago) and in her experience when younger girls date older guys the guys end up leaving and breaking their hearts. And the other thing she told me is that I sounded desperate and unhappy, and in her experience desperate and unhappy guys tend to leave as well. So I told her it makes no sense why guys act that way. If anything, those are the exact reasons why I WOULDN"T leave. The fact that I am older means that I don't have time to mess around. The fact that I am unhappy with my life means that I better cling to the girl that I have, to keep me from unhappinness. Thats not to say that if I was younger and happy I would be any different: I don't like moving from girl to girl regardless because (i) all the time I would spend with her would end up being wasted time and (ii) the breakup would hurt BOTH of us. But the fact that I am older and unhappy would give additional reasons why I wouldn't leave, since this kind of mistake in older/unhappy state would only hurt me that much more than it would have hurt me in younger/happy state. I don't get why I would want to hurt myself regardless, thats why I wouldn't do it, but now that I feel so vulnerable, it is even more unlikely for me to hurt myself now. She didn't tell me if she believed me or not, but I presume she didn't, since this didn't change her mind. I guess she found a different reason why she didn't want to date me: in my tirade I mentioned at some point how I don't believe in sex before marriage and she interrupted me to tell me she wants sex and thats why we aren't compatible. But I think that was just her excuse, I think the real reason is that she didn't believe me I wouldn't leave her.

e) If we go to the people whom I "didn't" try to date -- but rather the ones whom I went to get advice from -- one advice I keep hearing is that people are put off by my logic because relationships are emotional. But that implies a dichotomy that, if I think about it logically, it means I don't have emotions. But thats not true: emotions is what motivates me to think about it to begin with (logically or not). If I didn't have emotions on the emotional front, I would have spent time thinking about my math and physics problems.

f) The other kind of advice I keep getting is to be happy by myself before I look for a relationship. They say things along the lines "before you can be happy with someone you should be happy with yourself first". But to me that sounds like saying "before you can lift 10 pounds you should lift 100 pounds first", because being happy with someone is a lot easier than being happy with myself. If they aren't getting it, then it seems like they are assuming I don't have the kinds of social needs that most people have -- as confirmed by other examples I listed.

g) I once asked one of my ex-s whom I pushed away largely due to arguing with her too much the following question: "what would have happened if I were to tell you, back at the day, that the reason I was arguing is that my feelings were hurt". She said "yes this would have helped". So in other words she didn't even know that was the case -- despite the fact that to me this is self evident. Why ELSE would I be arguing if it wasn't for that?



I agree with you here. But the question is HOW can I practice? Lets say I want to learn to play piano. I have to practice and make mistakes several times before I get better. But now what would happen if, after my very first mistake, the piano would be taken away from me, and I would have to buy a new piano. Then when I make mistake on a new piano that I bought, it would be taken away from me again, and I would have to buy yet another one. Will I ever learn to play piano well that way? No, since I can't afford to buy a new piano every day. Well, thats what it feels like what happens to me socially.



As of now, I understand this. But the problem is that I didn't understand it back when I was in my 20-s. I mean, back then I spent hours and hours obsessing as to why don't girls talk to me, but it never crossed my mind to realize that messy appearance was the reason. Interestingly enough, people DID tell me that I should take a shower, etc. But I never connected those two things. On the one hand, for some reason I didn't know how to hold a conversation and, on the other hand, there was such an "irrelevancy" as people telling me to take a shower. And it never occurred to me it wasn't so irrelevant.

Well, I started taking shower regularly about five years ago, but apparently its not enough, since my hair is messy too. So lets say I FINALLY take care of my hair, now. But what to do with the fact that I am 39 year old now. What to do to get my time back?

And, speaking of hair, I remember, three years ago or so, I asked a hairdresser to help me, and the hairdresser put a jel on my hair which I don't feel comfortable with since it felt like a glue. I guess my mom is very much into natural medicine so she raised me to believe that hair products aren't healthy and would cause a hair loss. She is even against shampooing it too often, but in this regard I think she goes overboard and I have no problem washing hair with shampoo as often as need be. But I guess that product that hairdresser used that felt like a glue felt a lot worse than just shampoo and I myself started wondering if I would lose hair if I do that. Incidentally I am already losing hair anyway (no I am not bold but my hair gets thin) so I don't want it to be even more thin due to this.

The other option is to just cut the hair really short. But my mom doesn't like that either: she thinks the hair should cover my ears. I kept confronting her with the fact that nobody else says this, and she would just say "well they have bad taste". But who is to decide what is "good taste" and what is "bad taste"? Then, after I kept asking her that question for several months, she finally told me that I have big ears -- and she has big ears as well -- and so we should both cover them with hair. Now I suspect it might something to do with her not being over the antisemitism back in the soviet union. I mean, Jews have big years, in soviet union they disliked Jews, and so they would pick on things like that. But we aren't in the soviet union any more. So I confronted her about it and she denied that was her reason. But then I am not sure what it would be.

But, in any case, when the hair dresser gives me a short haircut I don't like it myself anyway since its not how I used to see myself. But I am thinking maybe I should force myself to do that, if it means people are more friendly with me when my hair is short. But then again, what to do with the time that was lost?



I guess the issue here is connotation. Like if I take my situation right now, my current advisors pretty much expect that things take a long time -- as evident from the fact that when they do, they typically don't complain -- so that is a good thing. But back then it was different: back then it was a reason why everyone refused to work with me. I guess maybe part of the reason is that back then I was in Michigan and now I am in New Mexico and Michigan ranks a lot higher (as far as my mentioning being in Mississippi, that was where I started second ph.d. and then transferred to New Mexico from there -- but the problems I talked about was when I did the first Ph.D. and that was Michigan). So maybe in the high ranking school, like Michigan, the reaction to someone whose projects take a long time is to refuse to work with that person, while in low ranking school like New Mexico the reaction is to be patient.

But in any case, the second advisor that I had back in Michigan very much DID try to make things bad for me. For example, he told me I had to tell him about the chair, co-chair and other members of dissertation committee by June 1, or else I get expelled. Nobody else had that deadline, only me. The deal that everyone else had was that they were supposed to set up the committee by the fall of their third year; but in my case I had to do it by the end of the second year. He gave me that note at the beginning of the spring semester of the second year, which means that "remaining" time for me to set up a committee became three times shorter. But, at the same time, the fact that he told them I was slow in my projects made everyone unwilling to work with me, and so I was pretty much set up to be expelled on June 1, if it wasn't for a retired professor that agreed to take me on exactly one day before that date in order to save me from being expelled (otherwise he wasn't in my field, so saving me from being expelled was the only reason to take me on). Also, most students are being paid for being a TA, which covers their tuition and gives them some money on top. He cut off my TA-ship. So -- even though I wasn't expelled (thanks to that retired professor) -- my mom had to pay my way.



So if you put the above two sentences together, are you implying that "most" people aren't good looking? Or are you saying that by "good looking" you meant something spectacular?

In any case, I do see a lot of guys and girls talking to each other. So are you saying the way they met was through their friends or something?



Thats a really good point. I guess, I wasn't talking about a relationship (I am monogamous so I obviously wasn't hoping to date a couple) but since you brought up the issue of relationships, that reminded me of a two year long relationship I had over 10 years ago. So, back then, I kept assuming that the girl I dated "deprived" me of doing things I was doing by myself when I was single. For example, back in my single days, I liked to go around the town and explore the area, eat at different restaurants, and I had a few favorite ones. I also liked going to Bible study. I could no longer do any of those things when I was dating her. However, shortly after I completed my first Ph.D. and the day before I was about to leave to do the postdoc, I invited her to go to one of my favorite restaurants I used to go to, and she really liked it. And then I regretted ever since that I weren't taking her there -- along the other places I used to be going to. Which is pretty ironic. I was thinking I did all this hard word "stoping myself" from going to those places so that I could stick to her plans -- but actually it would have been better for the relationship if I were to just take me to those places. Here were the obvious ways for me to contribute to the relationship, but I werne't even thinking of them as contributting I thought of them as being selfish.

But, going back to the issue of friendships, I guess inviting friends over is a lot harder. I mean, if I am to date a girl for a long time, I begin to open up, which doesn't happen otherwise. Like for instance I actually been mentioning to that girl I just talked about the fact that I like to explore the town (from what she told me after taht restaurant, she didn't realize that would be something she would enjoy since I called it "looking at the buildings", which actually wasn't the focus of it at all). But in case of other people, like that couple I met at the university, I haven't been sharing with them various things I do, thats why its a lot harder to all of a sudden invite them somewhere. Also I am not sure where most people invite each other and how they do it, so I am not sure how not to come across completely weird.

Two suggestions: never bring up an ex in initial discussions. Never. It's a huge turn off both to women and men. A bigger turn off? this:

"So I told her it makes no sense why guys act that way. If anything, those are the exact reasons why I WOULDN"T leave. The fact that I am older means that I don't have time to mess around. The fact that I am unhappy with my life means that I better cling to the girl that I have, to keep me from unhappinness. Thats not to say that if I was younger and happy I would be any different: I don't like moving from girl to girl regardless because (i) all the time I would spend with her would end up being wasted time and (ii) the breakup would hurt BOTH of us. But the fact that I am older and unhappy would give additional reasons why I wouldn't leave,

It's an expression of desperation. No one wants the pressure of being that person who is expected to "make" someone happy. There really is a lot of truth to the idea you are the only one who can make you happy.

Nobody could really make me happy but me.

If people openly tell you that they assume that then it's indeed not you assuming things... say, is it common in America to get that kind of thing told to your face?

About examble C: the girl saying "I want to feel loved" didn't necessarily mean that she doesn't think you can love, that's just your assumption. To me that sounds like she thinks that you can't make her feel loved, not that you aren't able to love her. There's a difference: she doesn't think you're unable to feel love, but that you're unable to show your love in a way that would make her see it and convinced that it's true. But I suppose it's impossible to know which interpretation is correct or if neither is.

As for point E: no, saying that you focus too much on logic doesn't always mean that people think you're emotionless. It's hard to explain...

Point F: I agree with what people tell you. I mean, if you aren't happy with who you are, why should other people be happy about being with you? Why would you expect other people to take something that you don't like, either?

Point G: Some people argue simply because they think the other person is wrong; feelings don't always have to be involved.

The piano examble isn't a good one if you ask me. To always buy a new piano you'd need a lot of money, but you don't make new friends with money. Besides, one doesn't usually lose friends over one social blunder unless it's a really big one. If you make a mistake, apologize and you can likely move on with that other person. You don't need to cut contact with someone for one mistake (assuming it's not something really huge.)

Why do you listen to your mom about the hair issue? You're an adult so if you want to have it cut, have it cut. I prefer my hair long yet my mom would prefer it short, but I keep it long 'cause it ain't her business. Also, taking care of one's own hair isn't hard after you practice a little unless you're extremely bad with your hands... I mean I'm pretty bad and even I have learned to do it to my long hair well enough that it isn't really commented on.
And no, you can't get back the time you lost, none of us can. If I could go back in time, I'd watch my diet in my preteen years and up so that I wouldn't become overweight. However, the fact is that I was careless back then and ended up becoming overweight and am still paying the price. I'm not overweight anymore, but it left scretch scars and I'm still by no means in an ideal shape. The best you (and me) can do now is to remember the past mistakes so we don't repeat them. Sucks, but it's all we can do.

I said unsually goodlooking/charismatic. As in, really good looking. But no, most people actually aren't good looking if you ask me, most are average. Average is, in terms of looks, not as good as handsome/beautiful but better than ugly.

By relationships I meant both romantic relationships and platonic relationships. My bad, language barrier I guess.
Anyway, how do you start things out with the women you date? Surely asking friends to hang out isn't all that much different... or well, maybe it is at your age or at the culture you live in, I don't know. Actually, probably better for me to shut up about this since I'm from another culture, so I might end up giving you bad advice on where to meet up with friends solely because of that.

I agree with red_doghubb though: avoid talking about your exes. If a woman asks you about it then you can answer (but you don't have to if it's a sore subject), but keep the answer short. You can ask her the same or similiar question back, but other than that, don't bring the subject up again if she doesn't. Of course, she shouldn't really be talking about it either, it's not usually seen as proper, but people aren't always proper... then again, there are subjects that might be directly linked to your or her ex and in a situation like that it's okay to talk about it.

Well, even if desperation is a turn-off, at least this specific negative about me is true. And thats a big contrast to other things people assume about me that aren't true. So I wish I could admit to everything thats true as long as I can defend myself against everything that isn't. Maybe part of it is an aspie need for complete honesty and perhaps that honesty is what holds me back, but I guess thats how I feel.

I guess the part about it thats not true is the assumption that if I am desperate nobody can make me happy except for me. I mean I remember that when I was dating, at least in the beginning phases of the relationships, I was a lot happier than I was when I was single.

But, at the same time, I also admit that, once the relationships progressed beyond few months, then I slid back into my "unhappy" state and was blaming the person I was with on it. But I am not so sure that its due to the fact that I was unhappy before the relationships started; I think its more about the fact that I lacked relationship experience. So, for example, I didn't realize that the beginning of a relationship is not a finish line: I had to continue to put in effort even when I was already in a relationship. And I also didn't realize that I can't expect the other person to run the relationship since it would set me up to feel like she is my mother, leading to resentment. Right now I realize both of those things, thanks to the fact that I had a few relationships to look back at that taught me that. Yes, you might say I learn things really slow, since right now I am already 39. But that is because the relationships I had were very few and far between. If I was able to date more often (like most people do), I would have problably learned it a lot faster.

The point I am trying to make, though, is that -- even if I start a relationship in an unhappy state -- I "will" be happy when the relationship will just start, so then I can do my best to retain that happinness throughout the whole relationship by putting in the effort. And that is a lot easier to do than figuring out how to be happy while single.

As far as what you said that it is a lot of pressure when a girl is "expected" to make me happy, I actually had that conversation with a girl I met on a dating site a couple of months ago (but then it didn't work out with her for other reasons). What she told me is that she sees a fine line between someone unhappy who doesn't feel its the other persons obligation to make them happy and someone who does. In the former case, yes, she is willing to date that person in hopes that maybe he will "happen" to become happier once they date. But in the latter case no, she doesn't want to date that person, since she doesn't want to feel "pressured" to do things for other people. I know that different people are different, so perhaps in case of other girls they are put off by desperation period -- pressured or not. But could it, instead, be that they have that fine line too, and they just haven't bothered spelling it out? If so, then maybe my issue isn't the fact that I am sad but rather its the fact that I am blunt (a very aspie trait) -- which could be mistaken for demanding?

Well, I don't know how America is compared to other countries, but, at least when it comes to comparing it to Russia (my home country), Russians are the ones that are blunt and Americans are the ones that are a lot more subtle. But every single example I been talking about is from the US (I came to the US when I was 14 and I wasn't interested in either friends or dating until I was an adult). I guess those girls were blunt with me because they realized I was being blunt myself which implies that I would expect bluntness in return. And I guess they were right when it comes to bluntness: I do prefer people to be blunt with me, since that way I wouldn't have to guess; and the situations where I have to guess feel a lot like passive aggression.

But then again, the girls that were blunt are only a select few. When it comes to the rest of them, I very much "am" still guessing what their thinking was. And a lot of my guessing is based on taking what the "blunt" girls told me, and "suspecting" that that is what the rest of them thought -- or trying to guess "which of the blunt things I was told is relevant to which of the other girls". Which, I guess, is a lot of guessing, as you pointed out yourself, but I am not sure what else to do. I guess the other option is to ask people on this forum what they think, which is what I am doing



I guess part of the reason why this concept is hard to grasp is that it sounds almost like a statement "yes you love me but I don't believe you that you love me" -- which is self-contradictory since its the speaker that states "yes you love me" part, so how could the speaker say it if they don't believe it?

I guess maybe the answer to this question is that there is a difference between intellectually acknowledging sometihng and feeling it. So I guess its more of a statement "I intellectually know that you love me, but I don't feel like you do". I guess this version of it is frustrating in a different way. Suppose I intellectually know that right now I am in California visitting my mom for the summer break, but I "feel" as if I am in New Mexico, at my school. If I act on what I "feel" then I won't have to buy myself tickets back to New Mexico before the semester starts, since I am presumably already there. Now, I realize that whether or not I love her isn't material like this. But the implications are even more dramatic, since it is the sort of thing that left a scar on my side. I mean, how am I supposed to "feel" if everyone else "feels" as if I can't love -- when I am so painfully aware that I can that I am hurting every day over it?

I realize that if I love her she isn't obligated to reciprocate. But its always possible to reject me while acknowledging what I feel. In particular, she could have said "yes I feel like you love me, but I don't love you back". That makes sense: and in this case my feelings are acknowledged. However, I don't remember a single time when anyone said it this way. Which sort of makes me wonder why not. Are people dehumanizing people that they reject to some extend? I mean, thats what I was suspecting is the case, which is part of why rejection hurts so badly.



But I remember people were countering logic with the fact that relationships should be emotional. Now, if there is no such dichotomy and you can have both, then why were they using it as an argument against logic?



Saying I don't like my current situation -- or that I don't like my situation for the past several years -- isn't the same thing as saying it will never get better. I keep hoping to make things better. But its easier to make things better with someone than by myself, as evident from the way I quickly became happy in my past relationships. So, as unhappy as I am, that other person won't have to be drugged down with me; I am hoping for the opposite, for them to pull me up.



But why were I raising my voice, getting upset and, last but not least, spending as much time arguing as I did, given that I had my studies to do and all that -- if feelings weren't involved?



I think you "would" be right "if" the friendship was already established. But the problem is that I don't have anyone who is already my friend. My issue is how to "get through the door" so to speak. And then I very much "do" strike out from small mistakes, as the list of the examples in one of my earlier replies indicated (I mean the list where I used numbers rather than letters).



I guess when I used the term short vs long I meant short or long for a guy -- so it was never long enough for me to be able to use my hands on it. But then again, there are guys that have it that long. So maybe my problem is that its neither short nor long -- and the advice would be to either have it really short or really long, but not something in the middle like I do now? I guess, quite independently of my mom, the issue is that I am used to a certain look when I see myself in the mirror, so it would get difficult to get used to new looks. Other than that -- between short hair and long hair -- I would prefer the long hair. But, before it can get so long that I can work with my hands on it, I would have to go through stages when I can't, and that would be when it would be getting messier and messier -- and I already know people don't like me when its messy. I guess going for a short hair would be a lot closer to a quick fix, but then I wouldn't really like my look. But if it means social acceptance I guess it might be worth it -- at least for a while, until I make some solid friends, if I do (which of course is a big if too). But yeah I am largely undecided in terms of what I want to do. What do you think?



I am sorry you had to face this, and thank you for sharing it with me. And yes I do see the analogy here. I almost wanted to say that right now I am slightly overweight too (although I had normal weight when I was younger), but then I realized that I haven't had to face the weird looks due to this, much less stretch marks. I guess its similar to the situations when I complain about social problems and the well meaning people are telling me that they had social problems too, but then I have to explain to them that I am talking about an entirely different level of social problems that I don't think they ever experienced. I think thats the other similarity between the weight and social problems: since it has so many different degrees, nobody can truly relate to each other and it always seems like grass is greener on the other side, which makes getting emotional support that much more difficult.

I guess when it comes to weight I was lucky that my mom and my grandma (on the moms side) were both into healthy eating, so they fed me properly when I was a kid. I never had a perfect body regardless, I still felt uncomfortable going swimming for example; but at least my weight was normal to low on the scales, up until 7 years ago when I became slightly overweight, which was a shocker. I guess maybe my social situation can also be blamed on my parents too: they were overprotective of me due to my Asperger, and probably talked to my teachers and everyone I interacted with, so that people were giving me a lot of leeways wherever I went. And thats why it was such a shocker when, as an adult, I no longer had those leeways and had to face a reality when people were hostile. I think this happened when I was 21, so you would think I would have time to get over it. But I guess the way I dealt with it wasn't healthy so things just snowballed.

How about yourself? What was it like for you growing up and so forth? Was weight just something you were self conscious yourself, or were people bullying you for it?



Now it makes more sense, thanks for explaining.



Yeah, in America they also use the term "relationships" in those two different ways -- I guess one has to look at the context to see what they mean. The reason I misunderstood what you wrote is that you said "friendships and especially in relationships" so it sounded like you made a distinction between the two. So, if by relationships you meant platonic ones, how would you distinguish friendship from platonic relationship? I always assumed the two mean the same thing, but perhaps there is a slight difference?



I actually been exposed to different cultures. I grew up in Russia and came to the US when I was 14. And also when I was ages 29-34 I was in India doing postdocs. Right now I am in the US, and I have dual citizenship.

How about yourself, what country are you from?



I guess it seems unnatural not to talk about it, since its a big part of my life. But maybe I can try and avoid it at the early stages. As unnatural as it might seem, it is worth it, if it helps me avoid pushing the girl away.

By the way, since you mentioned the word "proper", it leads to a different question. What about the situation when I know for a fact I won't date a given woman -- lets say, she is married -- are you saying it is still bad to talk about ex-s even then? The reason I am asking this is that, a couple of years ago, in New Mexico, I ran into a girl I knew over a decade ago back in Michigan. Back then she was single, now she is married. Even though she was really excited to catch up on how I am doing, she never asked me about my relationship status. When I brought up my ex-s on my own, she avoided the topic. I kept suspecting maybe she thought I was not a dating material or something. But are you saying that the reason she avoided the topic has nothing to do with her thinking I am not a dating material but, instead, it has to do with this topic not being proper to discuss?

No no, what I meant is that she might not think you're unable to love, just that you're unable to love her in a way she wants to be loved. For example, some people say that if you love someone, you absolutely must say it out loud. As in, say "I love you." However, some other people think that saying that doesn't really mean anything since it's easy to utter those words and that love should be shown by actually doing meaningful things (what those things are vary from person to person.) Of course, if I'm right about this then it would've been for the best if that woman had just told you how she wants to be loved, but I think it's a very NT thing not to do that. I think that in general, NTs want their partners to figure out what they want from reading between the lines... and since most people don't figure it out well enough, well, that's what often causes break ups. Or so I think, I'm not expert.

I think it's a matter of balance; a relationship (a serious one at least) should have a healthy amount of both logic and emotion. However, if a pair greatly disagrees on how much logic is needed, then the one who wants more logic than the other comes off as too logic centered and cold. And of course, there are some people who think that relationships should be all about the feeling and that looking at it from any kind of logical perspective would mean there's no love at all. I'd advice avoiding women like that, at least in a search for a romantic relationship.

Then what if they fail at pulling you up? Will you get mad? Dissapointed? That could put a strain on the relationship... I really do think that people should try to get their lives together without expecting another person to fix things for them... as in, it'll always be nice if a partner makes life easier, but down right expecting that out of a relationship will put a lot of pressure on the other person (assuming they know) and will hurt you if it doesn't work that way after all. Besides, if you got in to a relationship and it'd make things better, what would happen if she broke up with you? Would things go back to being wrong?

I think it's a guestion of when the feelings got involved. The person might have just thought that you didn't feel anything special about the matter at hand at first, but got upset as the argument went on since you weren't agreed with.

Ah well if you don't even manage to make friends then I suppose the piano examble is accurate. I don't think there's any other way to change your situation than to keep trying.

But you can use your hands on rather short hair too... I mean obviously you can't braid it or anything, but you can comb it. I think that counts. Maybe you should try to pay some extra attention to how your hair looks before you walk out the door- you know, just make sure that it isn't sticking to every possible direction. Unless you have a lot of tangles, just combing it quickly should do.

As for my weight issue, a bit of both. I mean I was always bullied about it, but I was bullied about a lot of other things too so it never really crossed my mind that they might be right about me being on the chubbier side (to put it nicely.) I did think of myself as fat around the age of 10 and 11 (I have old diaries to remind me of that), but I didn't see it as that much of an issue. I didn't really think of myself as ugly back then, I just thought that most of the other girls were prettier. It wasn't until I was... 17 or 18 that the school nurse pointed out that I was overweight and that something should be done about it that I got really selfconscious about my appearance... sure, I've always hated to be in photos, but that's when it kind of peaked and never really left.

When I said "friendships and especially in relationships" I meant that it's important in friendships (could also be called platonic relationships; to me they're the same thing), but even more important in relationships (as in romantic relationships.)

I'm from Finland and have lived here my whole life, as have my parents and grandparents, so I don't have the same kind of first hand experience about other cultures as you do.

Talking about exes with a woman that you have no romantical interest in and who most likely knows that too? Hmm well, I think that would be slightly more proper, but I don't think talking about exes is something people would do unless they were close, excluding just mentioning them quickly if it's somehow really relevant (which it often is if there are kids with the ex or something.) From what I've understood, it's common that people don't talk about their exes (unless they're bashing them together in a group of friends) and other people won't bring up their friends' exes when the said friend is around. So... maybe, since talking about exes isn't all that common, it makes people uncomfortable when someone suddenly brings up that subject?

But lets ask ourselves the question WHY is it that they want their partners to figure out what they want on their own. Is it because they assume that if their partners truly love them, they would be able to figure those things out? And thats why they don't want to tell them, in order to "test" them whether or not they are truly in love (kind of like the teacher wouldn't tell the students the correct answers during the test)? If thats correct, then it goes back to my earlier question why don't people just believe each other when they say they love them?

Don't get me wrong, I know that relationship includes quality time. But what I mean is why can't people believe each other that they love them and THEN go ahead and tell them what kind of quality time they prefer? Why make it complicated by "not" believing them -- and then "testing" them to see if they can "guess" what they prefer? It just feels messed up. Of course, saying "please tell me I love you" is weird: then you might as well say it to yourself. But what about some intermediate option such as discussing with a partner what is underlying reason why they don't say it as much and then, based on their answers, try to figure out how to work through it.

Incidentally, the idea that "if you love me you can figure out what I want" seems hand in hand with an idea that "autistics are incapable of love". Since autistics can't figure out what other people want then, presumably, they don't feel love (or other emotions) either. By the way, here is a chicken or egg question: what came first,

a) The idea that people who love will be able to figure things out on their own

or

b) The idea that autistics don't feel love

Sometimes I suspect maybe "b" came first -- and then people are just testing each other to weed out autistics. I mean, back in the 90s when I said I have Asperger, the most common reaction was "what is that" and the next common reaction was "I don't think you have it". But right now when I say I have Asperger people know exactly what it is, and yes they think I have it -- and some of them even suspect I have it before I even say anything. Now, back in the 90-s, people kept encouraging me to change (but back then I didn't really care). Right now I am the one who says I want to change, but people are like "no no don't change just be yourself". And they use this as an excuse to ostracize me. Back in the 90-s I was bullied at school, yes, but I wasn't ostracized. Right now nobody bullies me, but nobody talks to me either.

So I am wondering could it be that the popularization of autism is a bad thing? And, moreover, could it be that this leaked into relationships between NT-s when NT-s are trying to weed out closetted autistics by deliberately not saying what they expect from the relationship and "testing" their partner on their ability to figure it out? Were people more open when it comes to what they want out of a relationship back in the 90s, when Asperger was unheard of?



But see how you just used the word "cold". So why do they assume that logic implies coldness? To me its the opposite. If I am "cold" about something, then its not worth spending time thinking about it. But if I am really passionate about something then yes i would think about it -- and I would use logic. So, to me, logic is coupled with passion as opposed to coldness. So why do people assume its the opposite?

And if they do assume I am "cold" about something, how would they explain why bother talking about it?



Avoid them or not, the question is "why" did they arrive at that belief? And the other question is: does this belief infect others -- just to a lesser extend?



Here is the question: what exactly do you mean by putting pressure on her? I mean, I am not physically forcing her to do anything. So by pressure you mean emotional pressure: if she doesn't fulfill my expectations she would feel bad. But if thats what you talk about, then wouldn't she feel bad for rejecting me right away as well? So why is it, between rejecting right away versus dating me with some of my expectations not being fulfilled, does she choose to do the former? I mean, if she rejects me right away, she fulfills 0% of my expectations; if she sticks around she fulfills, say, 30%. So why is 0% better than 30% if, mathematically, 30>0? Or are you saying she is attributing this kind of thinking anomaly to me: as in, she knows that "for a normal person" 30>0, but "for me" thats not the case, since I am so abnormal (as evident by my desperation) that I might as well be abnormal in one more way and think that 30<0? Or are you saying that she knows that I know that 30>0, but giving me 0 would still produce less guilt on her end since she won't have to "wittness" my disappointment -- which is "out of sight out of mind" type of thing?



Actually, this, indeed, what often happens. At first I don't realize the importance of something, but then when I see the other person's negative reaction, I realize how important it was, and then I want to argue. But you see, I cared about how they feel from the get go. I just didn't realize that this specific issue will have such an impact on how they feel. But once I realize it, then I want to "fix" it. So I am not sure why it is wrong to say "I care about such and such issue because I care about you and I see how much it hurts you".



I agree. I just am not sure what "keep trying" would entail. How do people make friends anyway? Do they just approach strangers? If you say they make friends at work or at school, then I have already been at my current university for three years, so the fact that people already know me is a bad thing since they just assume I am antisocial. I guess I would have to hope to make friends with first year students this coming fall since they wouldn't know me yet. I guess the other option is church, but I been going to church and it didn't get me any friends. I guess change churches? What else would you suggest?



The thing is that my hair naturally stands in all directions. When the brush passes through it, it would move according to the brush, but once the brush is off of it, it would again point in all directions like it used to.



I have similar story with social skills. I was bullied by kids a lot, so I knew I had social skills problem around the age of 11 or 12, since kids would tell me about it constantly, but I didn't think of it as a big deal. For one thing, I didn't want to have any friends to begin with, since the things that kids were doing didn't seem to interest me at all. If someone were to ask me "if you wanted friends would you be able to make them", I guess I might say "yes", simply because I was assuming its my choice not to have friends -- but even if the answer were "no" it wouldn't really bother me regardless. But then, at the age of 21, a director of a Jewish club approached me and told me that 5 people complained about me. And, in my conversation with her, one thing she told me is that if people don't like me for some reason, they wouldn't say anything, they would just go to the other end of the room. That was big news to me. So no wonder I wasn't aware of the extend of my problems prior to that: I was thinking if people weren't saying anything, then everything is fine. But after that conversation, when I realized that when people don't talk to me its bad, that was when I became obsessed about making friends. And also from that point on I stopped initiating conversations: I wanted to see if people would initiate the conversation with me themselves -- because if they don't, its a bad sign. So then it snowballed from there.



Yes, thats what I took it to mean at first. But since you were replying to me talking about a friendship with a couple thats why it was a bit surprising. But I am guessing you were trying to use that example to give me a broader advice. And yes, I do have this kind of problem with romantic relationships too.



I know Finland broke off from Russia probably around a century ago or so. So does it mean you can understand Russian?



Well, like I said, she was married. Or are you saying that, in her mind, that doesn't necesserely implies lack of romantic interest, since there are people who cheat on their spouces? I guess from my perspective this is unlikely given that she is Seventh Day Adventist, but maybe I am not all that familiar with what people do?

I do remember though that she was really excited about the fact that we were in the Bible study together back in Michigan and now we ran into each other in church in New Mexico (no I am not adventist but stometimes I attend adventist things because they meet on saturday and I am of Jewish background). She even made a comment "maybe it is God's hand". But I took it as a platonic comment. Sometimes I am wondering though if I was mistaken. Anyway, two years passed since we met in New Mexico and, as of now, she is committed to her husband for sure, and she doesn't express any excitement about me at all (other than the fact that I am on her bible study mailing list). But I am just wondering if there was an opportunity two years ago that I missed.

Not that I would "want" to do that -- I mean Jesus said divorce is adultery. But at the same time she is a scientist "and" religious at the same time, which is kind of a nice package. So I don't know what I would do in that case. But like I said, right now its very clear she doesn't like me. So I am just trying to see what is your opinion in terms of whether she liked me two years ago.



Here is another question. There was a different girl, whom I met at a different church (this one was Baptist church) so during one of our facebook conversations I mentioned one of my ex-s and then we had the following conversation:

HER: Wait a second, you had a girlfriend?
ME: What made you assume I never had a girlfriend
HER: Well you never talked about her
ME: Of course I never talked about her: we broke up about a year before I came to this church so why would I
HER: I didn't know that
ME: Here is the question: the fact that I weren't talking about any girl meant that I was single while going to that church -- which is true. But then there are two options: maybe I was dating people in the past and then it didn't work out, or maybe I was single the entire life. The former situation is more common, so why did you think that in my case it was the latter? Is there something about me that makes me look undatable?
HER: I just didn't know you could love someone that way
ME: Did you think I was gay
HER: No I didn't think that
ME: So why didn't you think I could love someone that way?
HER: I dunno, you just never talked about her

And then we went on circles.

Anyway, the question I wanted to ask you is this. You said its not proper to talk about ex-s. But if its not proper to talk about ex-s, then why would she assume I didn't have any just from the fact that I didn't talk about them?

If you say "maybe its proper to talk about ex-s in America just not in Finland", then the question is: "why did that other girl ignore my talk about ex-s if its proper to talk about it in America".

So lets lay it out like this: both Baptist girl and Adventist girl were in America. The Baptist girl decided I don't have any ex-s because I don't talk to them. The Adventist girl ignored what I had to say when I DID talk about them. In order to explain the behavior of Baptist girl you have to say that in America its proper to talk about ex-s. In order to explain the behavior of Adventist girl you have to say that it isn't. So are you saying that in some contexts its more proper than in others? Or could it be that the REAL reason is that both girls assume I am undatable -- which would explain both of their behavior?

So then I kept pushing her to answer the following question "if I wasn't talking about any

This wasn't a discussion about your ex, it was about you not mentioning you had a GF. Very different things. Talking about an ex, esp on a date or the very early stages of communication, implies you (generic you) still have feelings for her, good or bad. It implies you have not moved past her. And it's super annoying to your date because the date itself is supposed to be about you and her and no one else.

I guess to me it's not "very different things": I tend to be long winded so "if" I "mention" something, I would have a "discussion" about it, too. Perhaps it has to do with the way I don't know how to do "small talk", which is very much part of Asperger.

So what would be an example of a context in which an NT would mention ex without having discussion about it? It's a genuine question since I think perhaps that's one of the things I am missing.

ex's don't tend to come up in general convo, unless perhaps you're with a friend but:

1. a casual comment "your brother went to x university? funny, my ex taught there"
2. Female warning alert: " my ex always used to get on me about eating meat"; "my ex never appreciated what I did for her", "you like Cabo? my ex and I vacationed there once", "Do you like this restaurant? My ex and I used to come here a lot", "my ex is a total psycho biyatch", "I loved my ex more than any other woman " etc. especially if the griping or reminiscing are continual. An emotionally healthy woman will run Forrest run from a guy like this.

ex discussions are saved for later in a developing relationship and really only if you want to highlight an issue that may illuminate why you act and think the way you do: "I learned through my relationship with my ex that I needed to work on my emotional availability and I took time out from relationships to do that"

I am not sure how to read it, since the word "but" in the first sentence suggests 1 and 2 are things to do, but then you say girls would run from it which means they are things not to do. Or were you perhaps saying that 1 is good but 2 is bad?

In any case, how could have any of those things came up with the baptist girl? None of my ex's were in that state where she lived (and where I was at school at the time). And what I learned from past relationships didn't come up either since I didn't know those people well enough to have that kind if discussion. So why would she assume that I never dated just from my not mentioning it?

1 good
2 bad

as for the rest I couldn't tell you but you should stop letting it take up head space - this one encounter is not worth any more thought

I'm not sure, but it might be an NT thing. As in they're so used to dealing with other NTs who understand certain things without really having to say much, so the idea that someone doesn't get it is just something they can't understand, much like many autistic people just can't understand how NTs can learn all the unwritten rules so easily without really being taught. Another thing is that, in the past generations, talking about feelings was apparently a bit of a taboo and some people pass that way of thinking down to their children as well. So if talking about feelings isn't "allowed", then of course these people wish that there'd be a way to get one's feelings across without having to say them.
As for why they might not believe you... well, as an extreme example: if someone bullied you really badly and then said that they actually really like you, would you believe them? I think not. It's the same here: even if you say you love them, it won't really mean anything if they think that your actions aren't in sync with your words.

Logic implies passion to you, but that doesn't mean it implies that to others. Just because you don't see logic as a cold thing doesn't mean that others won't, nor does it mean that those others are wrong. But neither are you. People are just different.
As for why you would bother talking about it even if you don't care... because it's polite? You know, even if you don't care about a subject someone brings up, it's often polite to talk about it at least a little. So people might think that you don't care about the subject, but you talk about it because you have manners.

I don't know, actually. Maybe they've watched too many romantic movies and so don't have very realistic idea of what most relationships are like? Or maybe they are just extremely emotional people by nature and can't help it. And yes, I think that this way of thinking can be passed on to some extent. For example, if one is in a group of friends where everyone insists that logic has no room in a relationship, then he or she might get convinced that that is truly the case even if they thought differently before.
But you know, I think the opposite is more common: I think that people are more likely to start thinking about relationships with more logic if they have a lot of emotional fails behind them. As in, they get in to relationships because they're so in love without really thinking about the practical side of things and things eventually go wrong because of it, so once they look for a new relationship, they pay more attention to practicality (like financial situations, what the other can and can't do etc.)

Yes, I'm talking about emotional pressure. First, she has no way of knowing what's expected from her before something starts with you, so if she rejects you after the first date or so she won't have to feel all that bad because she won't know how desperate you are... unless you have the habit of mentioning before the first date, but somehow I seriously doubt that. Besides, I don't think any woman would get together with you (or anyone) if they didn't have some hopes of it working out. If someone realizes right away that no, this isn't the one for me, then ending it right there is better because that way neither of you will have to waste your time.
And also, please consider the woman's feelings as well. If you've told her that you expect things to get better because she's around, that is very likely to add stress to her. I mean, if she cares about you then obviously she will want to succeed at making you feel better, and if she doesn't then she'll get hurt because she failed. Also, one could start to resent you for it, thinking that they're just a tool for you to make you feel better.
So yeah, I'd say this: you can hope (=have some thoughts about things getting better) that a relationship will make things better on an emotional level, but never expect (=be very convinced that things are going to get better and being really dissapointed if the other person isn't able to do what you wanted after all) it. Or if you do, make it clear to the other party from the beginning so that they can walk away if they don't like the sound of it.

I don't think that's wrong either... maybe the issue is that one would want their loved one to see same things as they do as important? I mean, I'm usually a little dissapointed when people don't see the things that are important to me as important, so I think I get the feeling. Not that I ever get mad, unless it's some kind of huge moral issue that the other doesn't agree on with me (for example, I'm a supporter of freedom of religion. I think everyone should have the right to choose whatever religion they want to follow or if they don't want to follow any, but some people I know think that people should follow the religion that their family follows in order to avoid conflict. That kind of thinking makes me mad; to me, religion is a personal matter and should always be treated as such.)

Get a hobby is what I would suggest. If I don't count friends from my school years, all friends I have I've met through hobbies. It also gives you a thing to talk about since you already share an interest.
I remember this one time at a convention that I sat down outside of the karaoke room to take a break. Across from me on the floor sat another woman, minding her own business, but I was bored so I started a conversation (I no longer remember about what.) In that same convention, that woman, I and a third person (I don't remember at all how the third one joined us) formed a rather tight knit group for that weekend. About half a year later, same place, another convention, we hung out together again... and after that I just lost contact with that other one. However, I'm still in touch with the woman I spoke to first. No idea how it happened or what the difference was between the first and the second, but somehow I ended up becoming friends with one but not the other. I like to toy with the idea that I was just too mature to be the second one's friend (she was two years younger than me), and mature enough for the first woman (who is 3 or 4 years older than me.)

You're not far off; we became independent in 1917. But no, I don't understand Russian. Finns who can speak Russian are, naturally, more common in the Eastern parts of the country, but I live in the West.

Well yes, I'd say that being married isn't an automatic sign of lacking romantical interest. I'm against cheating of course, married or not, but not everyone is, as long as they don't get caught at least. However, that sentence was meant more to confirm what kind of woman you were talking about.

Actually, I really was about to point out cultural differences. Where I'm from, talking about exes certainly isn't okay. Or at least, it isn't among my family and relatives. However, it might be acceptable for others in other places. America is a big place, also called the "melting oven of cultures." Just because two people live in America, it doesn't automatically mean they have the same cultural backgrounds. And they also had different religions, right? Maybe talking about exes was normal to one but not the other. Or maybe the later, despite not being from a culture that frowns upon it, just didn't like talking about exes for one reason or the other.
Yes, in some contexts it's definitely more proper to talk about exes than in others. Telling those situations apart is tricky though.
And yes, it is also possible that they thought you to be undatable. But they could've also been thinking that you aren't interested in those things and have decided to devote all your love to god or something. Or that you're asexual and aromantical. You can't really know unless you ask... though I suppose you did. I think that, to many NTs, there's some kind of behavior that comes off as uninterested in these kind of things... or something.