Would it matter if someone had no friends?

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KT67
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10 Jul 2019, 12:56 pm

I meant morally. As in, would that taint the person and make other people think they were a bad person.

I spend so hard trying to be nice to people and not offend anyone. Like I dedicate specialist interest type levels of investment into it. That's why I get called an SJW cos I'm scared of being racist or sexist or whatever so I'm very PC with what I say.

The irony is I think that trying to avoid offending people offends some people. Esp if I stand up for myself as well.

What I'm wondering is - is what most people do 'pick a tribe' then try to fit into that tribe and not care if other people dislike them?

Even in football I support one of the most controversial football teams in the world in terms of intense rivalry and it bothers me if a rival fan hates me over it. Or in politics, it bothers me if I'm the only left winger in a discussion. I don't think it would bother other people that they might offend someone they disagree with on controversial issues.

Other people who support the same team as me and live around here tend to be my casual friends. Other people who have similar sorts of artistic interests tend to be my positive acquaintances. Most people around here share my politics but I still don't really like talking about it unless someone else brings it up.

It's just I don't have a deep friend like a best friend or someone outside my family I could rely on or confide in.

I don't like putting geographic location because it doesn't feel that anonymous. But people on the site tend to know generally where I'm from anyway at least as far as it's useful to know.



IsabellaLinton
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10 Jul 2019, 1:09 pm

I haven't read this whole thread, but no I don't think it matters at all if people "have no friends". I mean, it might matter to them and they might feel lonely, but it doesn't mean they are an unlikeable person. For us as autistic people and people with trauma, it's hard for us to get out and meet the people we'd likely get on with the most. Those people are out there, somewhere, but it's hard for us to find them. That doesn't mean they don't exist, or that we are so unique no one is meant to be our friend. Please don't feel down on yourself. You have a capacity to care for others which you've demonstrated with your family, and on WP time and time again. You're my friend, and that matters to me!



KT67
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10 Jul 2019, 1:43 pm

Thanks Isabella :)

And yes, ours feels like a real online friendship.

Based on that we're both nice people, both had hard times in the past with trauma, both aspie but also superficial things like we both love books :)

The thing is - 6 months ago we weren't proper friends (I didn't know you well enough, we were positive acquaintances). So maybe my casual offline friendships will grow in a similar way? I did used to have deep friendships and I do have a pen pal.



QFT
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10 Jul 2019, 2:05 pm

KT67 wrote:
I meant morally. As in, would that taint the person and make other people think they were a bad person.

I spend so hard trying to be nice to people and not offend anyone. Like I dedicate specialist interest type levels of investment into it. That's why I get called an SJW cos I'm scared of being racist or sexist or whatever so I'm very PC with what I say.

The irony is I think that trying to avoid offending people offends some people. Esp if I stand up for myself as well.

What I'm wondering is - is what most people do 'pick a tribe' then try to fit into that tribe and not care if other people dislike them?

Even in football I support one of the most controversial football teams in the world in terms of intense rivalry and it bothers me if a rival fan hates me over it. Or in politics, it bothers me if I'm the only left winger in a discussion. I don't think it would bother other people that they might offend someone they disagree with on controversial issues.

Other people who support the same team as me and live around here tend to be my casual friends. Other people who have similar sorts of artistic interests tend to be my positive acquaintances. Most people around here share my politics but I still don't really like talking about it unless someone else brings it up.

It's just I don't have a deep friend like a best friend or someone outside my family I could rely on or confide in.

I don't like putting geographic location because it doesn't feel that anonymous. But people on the site tend to know generally where I'm from anyway at least as far as it's useful to know.


Yeah I also wondered if people just pick a tribe. I mean, how else would you explain why diffrernt views tend to go together? Why is it left winger would more likely support the life of animals while right winger would more likely support the life of embryos if both amount to the life of innocent? So they are just following their tribes. Or why is it Christians want more guns and atheists want less guns? Again doesn't make logical sense unless you say they follow their tribe.

This being said I don't think most people care if you are on the left or on the right. It's more likely they are put off by your being interested in politics to begin with, since it's a "nerdy" subject. At least that's the kind of experience I have. If I bring up something "deep" or "involved", whatever that might be, people tend to back off



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10 Jul 2019, 2:16 pm

QFT wrote:
It's more likely they are put off by your being interested in politics to begin with, since it's a "nerdy" subject. At least that's the kind of experience I have. If I bring up something "deep" or "involved", whatever that might be, people tend to back off

That's why I never try be friends (beyond just being friendly neighborly acquaintances) with a non-nerd. All of my friends over the years have been nerds, and likewise everyone I have ever even remotely considered having a romantic relationship with.


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KT67
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10 Jul 2019, 3:13 pm

QFT wrote:
Yeah I also wondered if people just pick a tribe. I mean, how else would you explain why diffrernt views tend to go together? Why is it left winger would more likely support the life of animals while right winger would more likely support the life of embryos if both amount to the life of innocent? So they are just following their tribes. Or why is it Christians want more guns and atheists want less guns? Again doesn't make logical sense unless you say they follow their tribe.

This being said I don't think most people care if you are on the left or on the right. It's more likely they are put off by your being interested in politics to begin with, since it's a "nerdy" subject. At least that's the kind of experience I have. If I bring up something "deep" or "involved", whatever that might be, people tend to back off


I think what I mean isn't that it's, do people with politics stop caring what people with other politics think of them? Stop wanting to be their friends etc?

I don't think it's seen as nerdy. In my experience the difference between nerds and non nerds is the nuance they talk with about it. Doesn't mean they're more centrist. Just means the nerds use bigger words and more examples, actually study it. Which yes seems to lead a bit more centrist or just a bit more pacifist.

The non-nerd political people are more blunt about their opinions. The right wing non-nerds don't see it as politics. They see it as 'telling it how it is'.

I come across a lot of the left wing ones at football. That's the side I agree with but I'm more nuanced than what they shout and care about more than one thing. They only seem to care about 2 or 3 issues.

Also I like friendships with nerds sometimes. Or not nerds as such, just creative types. It would be hard to be a creative right winger because the retreats and things are full of left wing conversations.



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10 Jul 2019, 4:10 pm

KT67 wrote:
I think what I mean isn't that it's, do people with politics stop caring what people with other politics think of them? Stop wanting to be their friends etc?


I think it's fight or flight type of thing. In some cases they withdraw their friendship and stop caring, in other cases they will start long debates and get pushy. But both applies only to people that are super-political, and they are few. Most people don't base their friendships on political views since there are other factors that are more important.

I think what's more likely is that people that are already friends -- for other reasons -- would eventually grow towards having similar political views simply because they spend a lot of time around each other and views are contageous so to speak.

What makes you think it's political in your case? Did someone tell you this? Or are you just suspecting it on your own?

KT67 wrote:
I don't think it's seen as nerdy. In my experience the difference between nerds and non nerds is the nuance they talk with about it. Doesn't mean they're more centrist.


I wasn't talking about centrist, I was talking about how much time you spend talking about it. You can be centrist and talk about it for an hour, or you can be far left or far right and only make one small comment about it. And, conversely, you can make a small comment about being centrist or you can talk for an hour about being far left or far right. I think it's the length of time you spend talking about it that would bother people. People prefer to go from subject to subject real quick and they are put off when one topic is being discussed for a long time.

KT67 wrote:
Just means the nerds use bigger words and more examples, actually study it.


Yes, this tends to put people off too. And that's where I think people are unfair. I personally think studying something in depth is the best way to really understand it which is important. But for some reason most others don't see it. Part of it is also American culture. In Russia there are some NTs that like to think about things in depth. In America, not so much.

KT67 wrote:
The non-nerd political people are more blunt about their opinions. The right wing non-nerds don't see it as politics. They see it as 'telling it how it is'.


I observe it on both right wingers and left wingers. I think the problem on both sides is that people listen to the news from the sources that are on their "camp", so they simply don't have any information that would support the other camp. If you listen to sources from both camps, you will see things are a lot more complicated than they might seem. But most people don't do it, which is where the issue of depth comes in.

KT67 wrote:
Also I like friendships with nerds sometimes. Or not nerds as such, just creative types. It would be hard to be a creative right winger because the retreats and things are full of left wing conversations.


That's probably because academia is left wing. I have no idea why. I find it quite sad actually.



Mona Pereth
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10 Jul 2019, 4:47 pm

QFT wrote:
People prefer to go from subject to subject real quick and they are put off when one topic is being discussed for a long time.


QFT wrote:
I personally think studying something in depth is the best way to really understand it which is important. But for some reason most others don't see it. Part of it is also American culture. In Russia there are some NTs that like to think about things in depth. In America, not so much.

Not every part of the U.S.A. is the same in this regard. Have you considered moving to a place where there are more nerds?

EDIT: As far as I can tell, nerd-friendly people are a minority almost everywhere in the U.S.A. (except maybe for a few places like Berkeley, CA, and Cambridge, MA), but definitely a larger minority some places than others. Also, in densely populated cities like NYC, the sheer quantity of people makes it easier to find any given type of person, if you know where to look.


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Archmage Arcane
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10 Jul 2019, 5:05 pm

Hi, KT

Was trying to figure out where you were until you used the phrase 'at football'. :)

Really, I had no idea where you were before that. At least now I know you're nowhere near me. Aside from that, I haven't a clue if you're 15 or 50.

If you want to meet people, find a group or club for something you're interested in. My chief hobby is amateur radio. 9 years ago, I found a club. I now help administer license tests and went from member to board member to vice president to president of the club. My Aspie Quiz scores are ND 160 and NT 57. If I can do that, many people here probably can as well.



QFT
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10 Jul 2019, 5:17 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
QFT wrote:
People prefer to go from subject to subject real quick and they are put off when one topic is being discussed for a long time.


QFT wrote:
I personally think studying something in depth is the best way to really understand it which is important. But for some reason most others don't see it. Part of it is also American culture. In Russia there are some NTs that like to think about things in depth. In America, not so much.

Not every part of the U.S.A. is the same in this regard. Have you considered moving to a place where there are more nerds?

EDIT: As far as I can tell, nerd-friendly people are a minority almost everywhere in the U.S.A. (except maybe for a few places like Berkeley, CA, and Cambridge, MA), but definitely a larger minority some places than others. Also, in densely populated cities like NYC, the sheer quantity of people makes it easier to find any given type of person, if you know where to look.


Unfortunately the places where I am are dictated by the school I am going to, so I don't have much choice. As of now I am in Albuquerque, NM.

It's funny you mentioned Berkeley since that's where I did my undergrad. And I noticed that back in Berkeley I wasn't ostracized the way I was elsewhere. I mean I am not left wing or anything so I don't see apparent reason for it. The few things I am thinking of is that it was back in the 90s so maybe people back then had different mentality, plus I was a lot younger and younger people have more leeway or else, like you said, the place is nerd friendly. The other possibility is that back then I wasn't obsessing about social acceptance so when I got unfriendly reaction I didn't notice or care. Probably some combination of all of the above I guess.

But yeah, like I said, my location is determined by schools I go to. So I don't have that much choice.



Mona Pereth
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10 Jul 2019, 10:38 pm

QFT wrote:
People prefer to go from subject to subject real quick and they are put off when one topic is being discussed for a long time.

The kind of unfocused conversation many people seem to prefer drives me nuts, especially when I'm talking to more than one person at a time. In conversation, I need focus. Either I can be focused on a topic, or I can be focused on the other person if it's a one-to-one conversation. Conversation without some ongoing focus is very hard for me, as it apparently is for many autistic people.

QFT wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
EDIT: As far as I can tell, nerd-friendly people are a minority almost everywhere in the U.S.A. (except maybe for a few places like Berkeley, CA, and Cambridge, MA), but definitely a larger minority some places than others. Also, in densely populated cities like NYC, the sheer quantity of people makes it easier to find any given type of person, if you know where to look.


Unfortunately the places where I am are dictated by the school I am going to, so I don't have much choice. As of now I am in Albuquerque, NM.

It's funny you mentioned Berkeley since that's where I did my undergrad. And I noticed that back in Berkeley I wasn't ostracized the way I was elsewhere. I mean I am not left wing or anything so I don't see apparent reason for it. The few things I am thinking of is that it was back in the 90s so maybe people back then had different mentality, plus I was a lot younger and younger people have more leeway or else, like you said, the place is nerd friendly. The other possibility is that back then I wasn't obsessing about social acceptance so when I got unfriendly reaction I didn't notice or care. Probably some combination of all of the above I guess.

But yeah, like I said, my location is determined by schools I go to. So I don't have that much choice.

There has always been a streak of anti-intellectualism in American culture. I don't know whether, among mainstream folks in most places, it has gotten worse over the past few decades. I do know that it varies quite a bit from locale to locale.

Also, based on the reading I've done about religious trends, it would seem likely that the evangelical Christian subculture, in particular, has gotten to be more and more anti-intellectual, or at least more and more un-intellectual. A longterm trend over the past 50 years or so has been the growth of the Pentecostal/charismatic wing of Christianity, including charismatic groups within otherwise more mainstream churches, at the expense of older forms of evangelical Christianity that emphasized Bible study more and hence were at least a little bit nerdier. Assuming that the "social acceptance" you've been seeking has been primarily within Christian groups, this might be one of the reasons for your experience of diminishing social acceptance. (I wouldn't know for sure, since I left Christianity in my teens.)


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- My "Getting to know each other" thread: Hello from NYC.


shortfatbalduglyman
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10 Jul 2019, 10:55 pm

KT67 wrote:
Like to what extent would that matter?

Functionally inconvenient to have no friends

Socially awkward




Would it inherently make them either a meaningless or a bad person?



Plenty of "meaningless" and "bad" people have a lot of friends



I know I have casual friends who like me irl. I know my stepdad gets by without anyone who isn't either an acquaintance or a relative (he managed to marry three women though whereas I can't get a gf or bf but that's me being picky). But I don't really have deep friendships or people who are 'into' me.

Does that make me a bad person either in a defective way or in a morally bad way?


I keep hearing things about 'if nobody is their friend, that's a sign they're a wrong 'un'.


Often not always



Thing is I don't want friendship for its own sake. I want it as 'proof' of my worth.

You can't "prove" or measure your retail value

Even the exchange rate of monetary currency fluctuates daily

Having friends does not change your retail value either


As a sort of a validation that I'm not entirely weird or out there on my own.

I'm looking at the autistic average age of death and it's 5 years older than me.

Your profile does not specify age

But based on your statement, if you are already that old and no friends, what is the problem?






Because of suicides. I'm not suicidal but if I continue along this path of casual friendships, will I become that way?

Hard to imagine

But I am not precognitive




And I know I'm using a lot of me and I and my own life in this but - if someone really didn't have friends, if none of their acquaintances liked them, etc (not my situation), would that person necessarily be immoral/useless?

Also yes, online, nobody watches me. Nobody follows me if I do twitter. Nobody friends me if I do facebook. People occasionally like my stuff and occasionally dislike it. Only a select few people on here like me. But I get the sense it wouldn't matter as much if people I wasn't related to irl would actually tell me they liked me.



KT67
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11 Jul 2019, 2:27 am

shortfatbalduglyman wrote:
KT67 wrote:
Like to what extent would that matter?

Functionally inconvenient to have no friends

Socially awkward




Would it inherently make them either a meaningless or a bad person?



Plenty of "meaningless" and "bad" people have a lot of friends



I know I have casual friends who like me irl. I know my stepdad gets by without anyone who isn't either an acquaintance or a relative (he managed to marry three women though whereas I can't get a gf or bf but that's me being picky). But I don't really have deep friendships or people who are 'into' me.

Does that make me a bad person either in a defective way or in a morally bad way?


I keep hearing things about 'if nobody is their friend, that's a sign they're a wrong 'un'.


Often not always



Thing is I don't want friendship for its own sake. I want it as 'proof' of my worth.

You can't "prove" or measure your retail value

Even the exchange rate of monetary currency fluctuates daily

Having friends does not change your retail value either


As a sort of a validation that I'm not entirely weird or out there on my own.

I'm looking at the autistic average age of death and it's 5 years older than me.

Your profile does not specify age

But based on your statement, if you are already that old and no friends, what is the problem?






Because of suicides. I'm not suicidal but if I continue along this path of casual friendships, will I become that way?

Hard to imagine

But I am not precognitive




And I know I'm using a lot of me and I and my own life in this but - if someone really didn't have friends, if none of their acquaintances liked them, etc (not my situation), would that person necessarily be immoral/useless?

Also yes, online, nobody watches me. Nobody follows me if I do twitter. Nobody friends me if I do facebook. People occasionally like my stuff and occasionally dislike it. Only a select few people on here like me. But I get the sense it wouldn't matter as much if people I wasn't related to irl would actually tell me they liked me.


I feel bad for telling you this but average age of death for autistic people is 36 because of suicide.

I had friends til I was 22. Online friends til I was 25 and I quit Twitter because I was scared of being googled and I had severe social anxiety.

I joined a library at 22. I started working there. The volunteers there were very right wing. They talked all the time about it. They were also all over 60. Some of the stuff they came out with was very rude and offensive and I don't like it. But it still matters to me that I 'failed' socially in that situation. I wonder if I should stop worrying about it and try to just get on with 'my own' instead?

Yeah, at football there isn't much conversation, but there is far left politics. Slogans and songs and things. Everyone there is a Republican, the Irish kind. But nobody debates it in depth. Nobody talks about anything in depth. People just shout in short sentences, quickly changing topic.

And, unlike in the library, people are pro immigration because most of us there are 1st-3rd generation immigrant, all Irish.

I broadly agree with them but there's no room for nuance. And no room for making proper friends. Because proper friendship happens through long conversation or through time. Maybe I'll get to be proper friends with time. Esp if I sit with Liam and that lot. Because people are ageist and old guys are sexist in their choice of friends. I find young guys aren't like that.

Bear in mind these people buy me birthday presents and young people want to dance with me so... it's probably all in my head this rejection thing, based on an idea of friendship meaning conversation.

Do NTs really think in those short sentences, quickly flitting from topic to topic? I'm trying hard not to be an aspie supremacist but...



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11 Jul 2019, 3:16 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
The kind of unfocused conversation many people seem to prefer drives me nuts, especially when I'm talking to more than one person at a time. In conversation, I need focus. Either I can be focused on a topic, or I can be focused on the other person if it's a one-to-one conversation. Conversation without some ongoing focus is very hard for me, as it apparently is for many autistic people.


I'm not sure if a discussion forum is the best place for you then; given you have multiple conversations happening concurrently.

I think you should find like-minded individuals and message/converse that way...

I'm probably not a good choice since I'm not really a nerd but can push myself to be intellectual on occasions...



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11 Jul 2019, 3:18 am

KT67 wrote:
Do NTs really think in those short sentences, quickly flitting from topic to topic? I'm trying hard not to be an aspie supremacist but...


NT here...I also notice the opposite...I try and engage Aspies in deep conversation and they run away...