Would it matter if someone had no friends?

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kraftiekortie
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11 Jul 2019, 10:38 am

Wait a second.....aren't you into Ulysses, KT67?

There's a club which celebrates "Bloomsday," June 16, 1904.



KT67
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11 Jul 2019, 10:50 am

That sounds interesting, I knew there was a day for it.

In the UK, the government can decide it's not appropriate for someone to work, therefore give them benefits. Two tier system. Some people can choose to work (I was almost put into this and it's a really hard system because they force you into any job they think is right, rather than you picking a job, sometimes they just go based on employers saying they wouldn't mind having you - if I'm ever forced into this then I'm going to apply for a job at a local café where I know everyone rather than being forced into this system) but some people can't. I'm in the can't and in the can't be interviewed over it, which is the extreme part of can't.

It's basically just my doctor saying it isn't safe for me to apply for jobs because I'll get rejected and my mental health will spiral. And permission for benefits as you're not allowed benefits if you work, at least not proper 'I can live on them' benefits.

I'm going to look and see what clubs my local library provides. In September I can start a course again, our local uni provides short-courses and yes, I struggled to make actual friends last time but at least I had company. Maybe if it was philosophy or something I'd get more in depth conversation. Or if it was art, I'd learn something.



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11 Jul 2019, 5:58 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
The kind of unfocused conversation many people seem to prefer drives me nuts, especially when I'm talking to more than one person at a time. In conversation, I need focus. Either I can be focused on a topic, or I can be focused on the other person if it's a one-to-one conversation. Conversation without some ongoing focus is very hard for me, as it apparently is for many autistic people.


I'm not sure if a discussion forum is the best place for you then; given you have multiple conversations happening concurrently.

Online forums are different from in-person conversations. Online forums don't require the kind of real-time processing that in-person conversations do. For example, in a discussion forum, I can read stuff in whatever order I like.

Anyhow, Wrong Planet is a well-organized online forum, with topic-based threads and sections devoted to particular kinds of topics, making it easy to focus.


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Mona Pereth
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11 Jul 2019, 6:00 pm

cyberdad wrote:
NT here...I also notice the opposite...I try and engage Aspies in deep conversation and they run away...

Are you talking about in-person conversations, online conversations, or both?


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- Finally diagnosed with ASD in May 2019, after having suspected it for over ten years, and after having deeply explored the autism community for over one year while waiting for and obtaining diagnosis.
- In longterm relationship with boyfriend who was diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome in 2001.
- Long history of participation in various oddball subcultures.
- My "Getting to know each other" thread: Hello from NYC.


cyberdad
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11 Jul 2019, 6:04 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
The kind of unfocused conversation many people seem to prefer drives me nuts, especially when I'm talking to more than one person at a time. In conversation, I need focus. Either I can be focused on a topic, or I can be focused on the other person if it's a one-to-one conversation. Conversation without some ongoing focus is very hard for me, as it apparently is for many autistic people.


I'm not sure if a discussion forum is the best place for you then; given you have multiple conversations happening concurrently.

Online forums are different from in-person conversations. Online forums don't require the kind of real-time processing that in-person conversations do. For example, in a discussion forum, I can read stuff in whatever order I like.

Anyhow, Wrong Planet is a well-organized online forum, with topic-based threads and sections devoted to particular kinds of topics, making it easy to focus.

Ah sorry, you were referring to real time face to face interaction! I thought you were talking about the discussion forum (my bad)



cyberdad
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11 Jul 2019, 6:10 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
NT here...I also notice the opposite...I try and engage Aspies in deep conversation and they run away...

Are you talking about in-person conversations, online conversations, or both?

Yep online....

I have only ever interacted with one self disclosed Aspie (who was a professional) on a social level in my life who was attending a conference with me some 30 years ago. This was (ironically) before my daughter was born so I interacted with him like a regular NT although for some reason when I tried to get to know him (he didn't interact with other conference attendees) he put up a wall. Despite attempts to keep in touch he never replied to my emails so I gave up. He seemed slightly anxious and sat with his back to the wall all the time but otherwise seemed pretty normal.

The only other apsies I have had experience with in the real world have been kids my daughter's age for whom there's an age difference.

So yes, my post is based on a few Aspies here on WP....



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11 Jul 2019, 6:17 pm

QFT wrote:
I don't limit myself on religious people. For example, I go to university, and most people there aren't religious. But I feel ostracized at University too. In fact I would say in church it's "slightly" better since a couple of people made some superficial attempts to talk to me. But maybe it's because they were older.but in University everyone is younger. I noticed younger people tend to avoid me more. But in any case, the conversations at church don't count for much either since they only talk to be polite and the conversation doesn't last more than a couple of minutes (if that). Besides, I only go to church once a week at the most (usually much less since I need to do homework and all that).

Surely you're not the only older student on campus? Maybe things are different in New Mexico, but here in New York at least, there are lots of middle-aged people going back to college, and plenty of middle-aged people in grad school too -- at least in computer science; maybe other departments are different?

Also, do you attend any student clubs?


_________________
- Finally diagnosed with ASD in May 2019, after having suspected it for over ten years, and after having deeply explored the autism community for over one year while waiting for and obtaining diagnosis.
- In longterm relationship with boyfriend who was diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome in 2001.
- Long history of participation in various oddball subcultures.
- My "Getting to know each other" thread: Hello from NYC.


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11 Jul 2019, 11:29 pm

KT67 wrote:
That sounds interesting, I knew there was a day for it.

In the UK, the government can decide it's not appropriate for someone to work, therefore give them benefits. Two tier system. Some people can choose to work (I was almost put into this and it's a really hard system because they force you into any job they think is right, rather than you picking a job, sometimes they just go based on employers saying they wouldn't mind having you - if I'm ever forced into this then I'm going to apply for a job at a local café where I know everyone rather than being forced into this system) but some people can't. I'm in the can't and in the can't be interviewed over it, which is the extreme part of can't.

It's basically just my doctor saying it isn't safe for me to apply for jobs because I'll get rejected and my mental health will spiral. And permission for benefits as you're not allowed benefits if you work, at least not proper 'I can live on them' benefits.

I'm going to look and see what clubs my local library provides. In September I can start a course again, our local uni provides short-courses and yes, I struggled to make actual friends last time but at least I had company. Maybe if it was philosophy or something I'd get more in depth conversation. Or if it was art, I'd learn something.


I never lived in UK and I don't know that much about the law things. But, from American point of view, it feels like a huge violation of your rights. In America, psychiatrists aren't even allowed to disclose anything about you or even the fact that they see you -- unless you are either homicidal or suicidal. Are you saying your psychiatrist decided you are at a risk of a suicide? Otherwise it makes no sense why they decided to write anything to the government (or any other third party for that matter) agaist your will.



QFT
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11 Jul 2019, 11:49 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
QFT wrote:
I don't limit myself on religious people. For example, I go to university, and most people there aren't religious. But I feel ostracized at University too. In fact I would say in church it's "slightly" better since a couple of people made some superficial attempts to talk to me. But maybe it's because they were older.but in University everyone is younger. I noticed younger people tend to avoid me more. But in any case, the conversations at church don't count for much either since they only talk to be polite and the conversation doesn't last more than a couple of minutes (if that). Besides, I only go to church once a week at the most (usually much less since I need to do homework and all that).

Surely you're not the only older student on campus? Maybe things are different in New Mexico, but here in New York at least, there are lots of middle-aged people going back to college, and plenty of middle-aged people in grad school too -- at least in computer science; maybe other departments are different?

Also, do you attend any student clubs?


I actually have a sense that low tire schools -- such as the one I am at right now and the one I was at right before this one -- have more older students than the schools closer to the top -- such as the ones where I was at when I was in my 20-s. But still, I am in minority.

I tried to join one of the Christian clubs and was actually told I was too old. However, the Christian club they re-directed me to is the one specifically for graduate students, and I am welcome there -- despite the fact that I am also one of the older ones. But what I mean by "welcome" is that they want me to keep coming. But whats the point of coming if they aren't talking to me when I come? So I guess I need to find some other club, but its hard to find anything thats focused on grad students (given that they said I am too old for undergrad things).

However, they have "association for non-traditional students", where by "non-traditional" they meant older. But I don't like it for few different reasons. First of all, in Russia, "non traditional" means "gay" (as in "non traditional orientation"). I realized that its America and, in this context, it means something entirely different -- namely a student that is too old -- but do everyone know thats what it means? What if someone doesn't know it, assumes it means gay, and see me walking in there? The other problem I have with this is that the people there are actually OLDER than me, they look like they are 60. And the third problem I have with it is that I feel like I missed out on my 20s so I wish to have a redo and be accepted by students in their 20s. Yes I want to interact with older students too, I just mean I don't want one to exclude the other.

In any case, I don't think I spent that much time looking at different organizations. For example there are some hiking clubs that I didn't try because I figured I don't have time. But I know I like to hike (time thing is the only thing that stops me), so maybe I should try one of these. Or it doesn't even have to be hiking. Maybe its something else that doesn't cross my mind until I look at the list, so maybe I should look and see whats there.



KT67
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12 Jul 2019, 2:59 am

QFT wrote:
KT67 wrote:
That sounds interesting, I knew there was a day for it.

In the UK, the government can decide it's not appropriate for someone to work, therefore give them benefits. Two tier system. Some people can choose to work (I was almost put into this and it's a really hard system because they force you into any job they think is right, rather than you picking a job, sometimes they just go based on employers saying they wouldn't mind having you - if I'm ever forced into this then I'm going to apply for a job at a local café where I know everyone rather than being forced into this system) but some people can't. I'm in the can't and in the can't be interviewed over it, which is the extreme part of can't.

It's basically just my doctor saying it isn't safe for me to apply for jobs because I'll get rejected and my mental health will spiral. And permission for benefits as you're not allowed benefits if you work, at least not proper 'I can live on them' benefits.

I'm going to look and see what clubs my local library provides. In September I can start a course again, our local uni provides short-courses and yes, I struggled to make actual friends last time but at least I had company. Maybe if it was philosophy or something I'd get more in depth conversation. Or if it was art, I'd learn something.


I never lived in UK and I don't know that much about the law things. But, from American point of view, it feels like a huge violation of your rights. In America, psychiatrists aren't even allowed to disclose anything about you or even the fact that they see you -- unless you are either homicidal or suicidal. Are you saying your psychiatrist decided you are at a risk of a suicide? Otherwise it makes no sense why they decided to write anything to the government (or any other third party for that matter) agaist your will.


It's state funded, they have to help me get benefits so they write a letter to the other government bodies who are in charge of that saying 'yes, this person can't work because...'

I'm not suicidal and I really don't mind it, it's the best thing for me at the moment.

Lots of people can't get letters off doctors and even if they're obviously unwell, they don't get disability benefit.

My mother could technically read the letters but she chooses not to because the doctor puts things in the most extreme way, focusing on my bad days.

I could have gone for interview instead but that would have made me more unwell. I feel more unwell when I over analyse this stuff.

I think it would be different in the US as I assume you or your employer would be paying so they'd have no business with the government. They still would recommend things to your employer based on your health, I assume?



QFT
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18 Jul 2019, 3:21 pm

KT67 wrote:
I really don't mind it, it's the best thing for me at the moment.


Well, since you were concerned about not having friends, I would think that being on disability could be one of the factors here. When people see that you get disability benefits and don't work, they might think there is something "wrong" with you, which would make them less inclined to be your friend.

KT67 wrote:

Lots of people can't get letters off doctors and even if they're obviously unwell, they don't get disability benefit.


So are you saying your doctor wouldn't have written that letter if you didn't ask for it?

What would happen if you were to go to the government and say "never mind, I don't want to be on disability benefits any more". Would they allow you to get off them or not?

Also, how does the government stop you from applying to jobs? Is it that they put something on your record that all future employers can see?

KT67 wrote:

My mother could technically read the letters


Why is that? I mean in the US there is a privacy policy that nobody can read the letters unless you are either suicidal or homicidal. Are you saying in England they don't have that policy? Or are you saying that they do, but they have exceptions to that rule? If you weren't getting disability benefits, would your mother be allowed to see those letters in this case?

KT67 wrote:

I think it would be different in the US as I assume you or your employer would be paying so they'd have no business with the government.


I was assuming in England your employer is paying as well? Or are you saying in England government pays? How do jobs work in England?

KT67 wrote:

They still would recommend things to your employer based on your health, I assume?


Not unless I give them a letter of consent to disclose private information -- which I won't do.

And by the way I don't know what you mean by "the governement". My only interaction with the government is when I do taxes (and no, I don't talk about any of my diagnoses on tax return, I fill it out as if I am normal healthy person). As far as my diagnosis or whatever, thats between me and my doctor.



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23 Jul 2019, 11:24 am

I haven't had friends offline since grade school but I know this doesn't make me a bad person



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25 Jul 2019, 3:51 pm

No, because people have intrinsic worth. People (wrongly) assume that if someone is alone, that means they do things so horrible no one will accept them as a friend. Realistically, people can be friends with everyone from litterbugs to drug dealers and not know/care, and there's many reasons someone not might have friends.



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26 Jul 2019, 11:42 pm

green0star wrote:
I haven't had friends offline since grade school but I know this doesn't make me a bad person

Of course it doesn't make you a bad person.

However, if you were to discover a good (and relatively risk-free, and compatible with both your personality and your current circumstances) way to make a good friend or two, would you consider it worthwhile?


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- Finally diagnosed with ASD in May 2019, after having suspected it for over ten years, and after having deeply explored the autism community for over one year while waiting for and obtaining diagnosis.
- In longterm relationship with boyfriend who was diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome in 2001.
- Long history of participation in various oddball subcultures.
- My "Getting to know each other" thread: Hello from NYC.


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26 Jul 2019, 11:43 pm

Canary wrote:
No, because people have intrinsic worth.


Ironically, that very concept is the reason why I am desperate to have friends. The fact that I have no friends makes me worry that others evaluate my intrinsic worth to be lower than other people's intrinsic worth. If the concept of intrinsic worth didn't exist altogether, I wouldn't have to worry about it. But since that concept does exist, thats precisely why I am upset.

Let me give you an example. If the concept of money didn't exist I won't have to worry about being poor but since it does exist I am worried about it. But no I am not nearly as upset about being poor as I am about having low intrinsic worth, since money is just the practical means of getting stuff but intrinsic worth is who I am as a person altogether.

If you were to say "everyone's intrinsic worth is equal" that would be a different matter. But notice that you didn't say its equal, you simply said that everyone has it. Big difference. In your case you probably just forgot to add that little "equal" word. But when it comes to what NT-s think they, indeed, don't think its equal -- as evident by how they treat aspies.