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QFT
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31 Aug 2019, 11:26 pm

SharonB wrote:
@QFT hopefully you find some of my responses helpful; if not tell me and I'll save my energy. I probably couldn't tell otherwise.


I do find it helpful. It is just that I have that habbit that if the other person says something I agree with, I don't say anything; but if they say something I disagree with, then I will point out what it is I disagree with. So, even if I agree with 90% and disagree with 10%, I will only mention the 10% which will make it feel like I disagree with the whole thing when in reality I agree with majority of it.

I guess part of it is that I don't know what it is to say if I agree with someone. In fact I remember the situations where I was agreeing 100% with the other person, and then I was simply silent at loss what to say. On the contrary, if I disagree with something, however minor, I feel like correcting it since I am concerned that a given inaccuracy will distort the rest of the conversation unless it is corrected.

Well, the other problem is that when I explain myself it sounds like I am implying I will keep doing it. But that is also misconception. I am not implying that I will do it in the future; I am only trying to explain the past. So I realize that, in the future, I have to learn how to balance expressing the agreement with expressing disagreement; I am just saying I didn't do it in the past in order to explain why I came across that way.

SharonB wrote:
QFT wrote:
I guess I don't feel like asking her those questions since she doesn't ask ME those questions.

So to other folks' points. If the assumption is she doesn't want to talk to YOU (personally) and that will NOT change, then I your response seems fair enough: reciprocal, taking the "hint". If one assumes it's not that (my premise), then to me it's childish: not allowing for individual strengths and weaknesses, nor change --- SHE must behave a certain way (yuck).


Well, I am, in fact, assuming that people don't want to talk to me, personally. Thats the whole context behind the whole thing. In case of this girl, she has a very good reason not to want to talk to me personally due to what I have done. In case of other people, I lead to believe they don't want to talk to me personally since none of them approach me. I mean look at how this girl told me she was put off by my staring and how I didn't know it before she told me. So maybe with everyone else they are also put off by some things I do but I don't know about them since they aren't telling me. This is quite likely since this is a symptom of Asperger. This is what makes me assume they don't like me, personally, and, consequently, make me want to get them to start talking to me first in order to "prove" to me thats not the case.

Maybe there is the other thing where there are two sides of the coin. In particular, suppose I know that they don't like me. Then there are two separate motives of giving them space:

a) I want them to be happy in general. Since their interaction with me makes them unhappy, I spare them from that source of unhappiness.

b) I want to feel good about myself. If they aren't enjoying their interaction with me, then said interaction doesn't accomplish the purpose of making me feel good about myself. Therefore, I no longer want it.

Both "a" and "b" imply that if others don't want to talk to me I should leave them alone. The difference is that "a" is a selfless motive while "b" is a selfish motive. But despite the fact that "b" is selfish, it would still make me "do the right thing", just for the "wrong reason".

Now, I admit that in a lot of situations it is a lot closer to "b" than to "a". But that is only because its hard to care about someone who doesn't care about me in return. And this is not just an aspie thing. NT are very much like that as well. The only difference between an aspie and an NT is that an NT has some friends and some enemies -- and thats why NT shows genuine empathy to their friends but not their enemies; on the other hand, an aspie has no friends and only enemies -- and, therefore, an aspie has nobody to show an empathy to. Thats why I don't buy it when people are saying that an aspie is inherently incapable of showing empathy. I think the issue is that the aspie is *placed in a situation* in which they can't.

And the other factor is that NT can fake things while an aspie is usually honest. So its quite likely that both an NT and an aspie would have reason "b", but an NT will lie that their reason is "a" while an aspie will honestly state that its "b".

SharonB wrote:
I have difficulties asserting myself, so if I met you I wonder how *I* would respond. Honestly: If I were your age or needing to work aside you, I would be intimidated (more closed) and if I were older (to OP's point) or not needing to work aside you, I would be merely amused (more open).


Can you elaborate as to why you would feel that way?

SharonB wrote:
QFT wrote:
So what else can I do?

I am a change agent; it frustrates me when people say "that's how it is" and don't take action => do something. Then again, some things are not worth the effort to change => let it go.


Its not that its not worth an effort; rather its that I can't think of a single thing I could do that would be positive rather than negative. What makes it negative is that its unwelcome. She clearly doesn't like me. So forcing myself would BOTH invade into her space AND hurt my pride: a lose/lose situation. So, as other posters suggested, I don't interact with her in the office. But that just forces me to feel rejected for the entire year to come and how can I let it go if I am reminded of it each time I walk into the office.

Alright, here is what I want to DO. I want to go back few days and undo what I did that day and start over. But I can't go back few days, so I am stuck.

SharonB wrote:
QFT wrote:
More or less won't fit either.

Candidly: That doesn't feel good to me. Your intention may be intellectual discourse, but I experience that response negatively. This statement is probably the reason I delayed responding.


Actually, I was, in fact, intending it to be "intellectual discourse" as you put it. So what can I do in the future so that I can have intellectual discourse without putting off the other people?

SharonB wrote:
QFT wrote:
So you are basically saying that you didn't get promoted, and the choice of who gets promoted is subjective rather than objective? Is this what you were getting at?

Well said. That's how it feels. In this situation objective is subjective: it's who defines the standards and in this case the standards don't fit me. From their perspective it's logical: IF so-and-so is great to party with (personable, chit-chat) and can improvise (good executive function, verbal skills), THEN so-and-so gets paid more/promoted. From my perspective: that in certain situations and... IF so-and-so is honest and efficient (productive), THEN...


Then maybe the reason men don't believe the statement "women earn less then men" is not that they are opposed to feminism but rather that the connection between earning less and promotion wasn't spelled out. Now that you spelled it out to me, I can totally see it; but until you did, I just didn't see it. So then maybe its just a communication gap as opposed to people purposely turning the blind eye.

SharonB wrote:
QFT wrote:
Is there a way to look up that group? What is its name?

It was an infertility support group for a nationally renowned clinic. I prefer not to look it up.


I am sorry you are infertile it must be hard. One of the friends of my family is infertile too so I can sympathize.

Why did they kick you out?

SharonB wrote:
QFT wrote:
But when I get occasionally reminded about the list I just wish I could get those 20 years back by walking right back to where it all got started.

This reminds me of the "do I wish I was diagnosed earlier" dilemma (which I spell "dilemna" b/c of cultural influence). Life would have been less painful, but then it wouldn't be what it is now. Teasing: Someone should make a movie about that theme.


My mom told me about a Russian book "История глазами сатириконцев" where they look at the historic event and invent some details that triggered that event and say something along the lines "if only such and such had better sleep that particular night then this huge historic event, and all those other historic events that follow, wouldn't have happened".

SharonB wrote:
QFT wrote:
I did exact same thing with obsessing over the mailing list.

Thank you for relating. That feels good and encourages me to respond.


And thanks for acknowledging it, it makes me feel good too.

SharonB wrote:
SharonB wrote:
...so guy/gal

That: Gentleman/Lady, Man/Woman, Guy/Gal, Boy/Girl. "Gal" went out of fashion (per previously referenced chart) so the language is not balanced. Although being a nonconformist, I say "gal" when others say "guy". I see that age is a factor and there is a transitory zone. Kind of like when I went from "Miss" to "M'am" at some point in the eyes of others.


So then the issue is that I mean to say guy/gal and then I put girl instead of gal due to that thing that gal-girl merging that happened over time.

SharonB wrote:
What does that transition look like for boys/guys/men?


Are you talking about the words boy/guy/man, or are you talking about what the individuals who fall into the category of boy/guy/man perceive it to be?

In any case, I am not that sure about either -- I haven't thought about it that much until you brought it to my attention.

But what is your opinion on this?



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31 Aug 2019, 11:33 pm

Fireblossom wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Ok well...the b-word was probably uncalled for but I work with younger females and they often display a "I'm better than you attitude" which is rather "bitchy" and seems to be over-compensating perhaps wanting to assert themselves because they are female.

The bitchiness may also come from hiding the fact they are intimidated and they don't know how to handle intelligent articulate males like myself or the OP.


I have the exact same experience with older people in the work place, so maybe it's just a generation gap? As in, the older people (not all of them, but many) often have a "I'm older, of course I know better" -type of attitude, acting like their age justifies their rude behaviour to younger people.

Maybe they're just intimidated of new people who might have new ideas that they didn't think of and fear that they'll climb up the corporate ladder to their level if they let their guard down?


In my case its the opposite. I tend to think "I am more disabled than you, therefore you should try to help me out" or "I am disabled therefore its not my fault that I did what I did". The way in which age figures into this is that being older makes me feel even more disabled. After all, back when I was younger I was ahead of my age academically while behind socially; but now that I am older I am behind in both. And, as far as socially goes, back when I was younger yes I was behind but I had all those years in front of me to make up. But now I feel like I wasted the best years of my life, so I feel bitter about it. But no I never act like being older makes me more experienced. I feel like others know infinitely more than me, so I oftentimes act like a little kid throwing a tantrum, since I feel like a little kid deep down.



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31 Aug 2019, 11:36 pm

cyberdad wrote:
It's probably due to developmental factors, younger females are going through a phase where they haven't established their social identity and are anxious to identify with people whom they want to network with or whom they consider will help their social ladder climbing. I am not that person.


Didn't you just contradict yourself in that bolded sentence above? I thought you were saying how they supposedly perceived you as more intelligent and were intimidated by it? But that *would have* implied that you *would* be in a position to help them go up the social ladder.



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01 Sep 2019, 2:34 am

QFT wrote:
domineekee wrote:
Sorry, I don't really understand your question.

I find the OP's behaviour weird, I find it embarrassing just to read about it.

I pity the woman, in my opinion she is the victim not him.


Which of the two things would make her a victim? Is it (1) staring or (2) asking that question?

As far as (1) is concerned, I have no control over it since I am unaware of how I look like unless I look at myself in the mirror. As far as (2) is concerned, I would say the opposite: I am shocked myself that I asked that question so it is frustrating when, on my end, I know I won't do (2) again (just for the sheer fact of how shocking I found) yet others think I might, and I don't know how to change the past. So in both cases I am helpless. With (1) I don't see my body language, with (2) I can't change the past. Being helpless is what makes one a victim. Thats why I see myself as a victim.

If people were to tell me what can I do to fix the mess I created then I won't see myself as a victim any more: I will go ahead and fix it. But I am not being told to fix anything -- quite the opposite, I am being told that they don't want to have anything from me (not even the fixing); so how am I supposed to feel then? I am the victim to my past, as in I can't change the past.

And the other thing is this: that woman suffered few minutes of negative interaction with me; I am going to suffer the whole upcoming year of ostracism from her. That woman is suffering from exposure to someone ELSE who is weird, I am suffering from MYSELF being labeled as weird. Surely the latter hurts more than the former.

To be fair, I can respond to some of the points I just made. I was bitten by a dog when I was 6 and I am afraid of dogs ever since. So even though I "technically" suffered just that one day when I was 6, in reality I am suffering my whole life when I have to keep running away from the dogs each time I go to park. So with the girl its the same thing: she suffers every time she comes to the office (despite the fact that I no longer say or do anything) just like I suffer every time I come to park (despite the fact that dogs in the park don't bite me).

But still, what I just said doesn't change the fact that I am a victim, too. So I guess we are both victims. She has to be scared of me each time she walks into the office, and I have to feel ostracism each time I have to walk into the office. And neither of us can do anything about it -- since I can't go back and change the past. I guess one way in which her situation is better is that she has a support system with her friends, while I don't have any support system I am just left on my own. And also, being afraid of dogs doesn't ruin my life nearly as much as being ostracized. With dogs I have to face that fear "only" when I go to park. With ostracism, I have to face it every walking minute of my day.

I've been worrying about my post and how you might have felt about it, sorry, I'm unnecessarily harsh sometimes. :oops: and loose track of all the relevant details.

I think that the ball is in your court as far as smoothing things over, good luck, I hope that you find an opportunity to inject a little humour into the situation.

I sympathise with your predicament but don't think that confronting her about it was the right way to resolve it. The moment that you describe putting a new student on the spot like that, my sympathy goes over to her. Don't write the situation off altogether though, you might be able to look back on the situation and laugh about it together one day.

We're not always victims of our weirdness, sometimes people find our quirkiness funny and cute but not if we take ourselves over seriously.

Will you update us if there is any improvement in relations between you?



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01 Sep 2019, 4:03 am

cyberdad wrote:
If I was to do a simple correlation coefficient I could plot the age of the females I work with - the oldest ones are the easiest to work with (relatively easier to connect with) and as their age gets younger they become harder to deal with. The youngest ones are the worst.

It's probably due to developmental factors, younger females are going through a phase where they haven't established their social identity and are anxious to identify with people whom they want to network with or whom they consider will help their social ladder climbing. I am not that person.


Again, I often have the opposite problem, so I really think it's a generation gap.

How young are we even talking about exactly? Lots of people have their "social identities" more or less developed at their early twenties. Maybe your social identity simply clashes with the ones those youg women at your workplace have?



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01 Sep 2019, 4:18 am

I'm bad with handling quotes, thus the double post.

QFT wrote:
Fireblossom wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Ok well...the b-word was probably uncalled for but I work with younger females and they often display a "I'm better than you attitude" which is rather "bitchy" and seems to be over-compensating perhaps wanting to assert themselves because they are female.

The bitchiness may also come from hiding the fact they are intimidated and they don't know how to handle intelligent articulate males like myself or the OP.


I have the exact same experience with older people in the work place, so maybe it's just a generation gap? As in, the older people (not all of them, but many) often have a "I'm older, of course I know better" -type of attitude, acting like their age justifies their rude behaviour to younger people.

Maybe they're just intimidated of new people who might have new ideas that they didn't think of and fear that they'll climb up the corporate ladder to their level if they let their guard down?


In my case its the opposite. I tend to think "I am more disabled than you, therefore you should try to help me out" or "I am disabled therefore its not my fault that I did what I did". The way in which age figures into this is that being older makes me feel even more disabled. After all, back when I was younger I was ahead of my age academically while behind socially; but now that I am older I am behind in both. And, as far as socially goes, back when I was younger yes I was behind but I had all those years in front of me to make up. But now I feel like I wasted the best years of my life, so I feel bitter about it. But no I never act like being older makes me more experienced. I feel like others know infinitely more than me, so I oftentimes act like a little kid throwing a tantrum, since I feel like a little kid deep down.


What? Being disabled does not make something you did not be your fault. Sure, a lot of things can happen by accident when one has a disability, but that doesn't change the fact that if the disabled person, say, brakes something, it is still their fault. I have a bad balance, so does that mean it's not my fault if I break something at a porcelain store? No, it doesn't. Yes, I wasn't causing trouble on purpose, but that doesn't change the fact that I have to pay for whatever I broke. Same with less visible disabilities; I often need more literal advice than others since I have trouble understanding too vague instructions due to my autism. No, I'm not taking more of the time of the one who gives the instructions out of ill will, but that doesn't change the fact that they need to use more of their time solely because of me, so the least I can do is aplogize, at least if it happens often. Having a disability is not some free Get Out of Jail -card.

Besides, how do you know that the person in front of you isn't actually just as or even more disabled as you? We've talked about this before too, haven't we? For all you know the person across from you could also be autistic or they could even have a life threatening, permanent condition that doesn't show up to the surface. This is why you must never use the "I'm more disabled than you so you should help me" -card. You can't know if you're really the more disabled individual!



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01 Sep 2019, 10:23 am

domineekee wrote:
I've been worrying about my post and how you might have felt about it, sorry, I'm unnecessarily harsh sometimes.


Well, I am all for open honesty. I mean, simply refraining from saying what you think won't stop you from thinking it anyway -- but then there won't be any communication to talk it over -- which is precisely what happens with the girl in the office.

domineekee wrote:
I think that the ball is in your court as far as smoothing things over, good luck, I hope that you find an opportunity to inject a little humour into the situation.


You are contradicting yourself since in your earlier reply you said I should stay away from her and now you are saying I should humor her.

domineekee wrote:
The moment that you describe putting a new student on the spot like that, my sympathy goes over to her.


But if you go back to "6:32 am" reply on page 2, you phrased it as if even *before* I asked her that question I *already* acted weird. Yet right now you are saying that its that question that made your sympathy go to her. So are you saying that this question made you re-evaluate what I did prior to that question?

domineekee wrote:
Don't write the situation off altogether though, you might be able to look back on the situation and laugh about it together one day.


I don't write it off, but I want her to be the one initiating the contact. After all, as you and others pointed out, there is a good reason to believe she doesn't want to talk to me due to what I did. So why should I initiate a contact when it is unwelcome?

Incidentally, you aren't the only one who first tells me that what I did was wrong and then suggests that I initiate a contact. Here is another example. So I asked a pastor that leads bible studies for graduate students at my university why don't people in the bible studies talk to me. He gave me few reasons. One of them was that I keep shifting the discussion to the antichrist and the mark of the beast, so people are tired of it. Then I told him that, even during the times when I don't bring up antichrist or the mark of the beast, people still don't talk to me because they remember the past -- and its unfair since I can't change the past. So then he suggested that I be the one to initiate conversation. But wait a second. If they don't want to talk to me, why should I force myself on them? It makes no sense.

I guess the only way to make sense of why people "first" tell me what I did wrong and "then" tell me to initiate a conversation if I want to fix it, is that if I am the one to initiate a conversation I won't have a "priviledge" of feeling important when someone else initiates a conversation with me. But if I think along those lines, then it implies that whatever friendship will develop from my initiating a conversation won't be as valuable or worthwhile as the friendship that would develop from the other person initiating a conversation. And that is precisely what makes me "not" want to initiate a conversation.

domineekee wrote:
sometimes people find our quirkiness funny and cute but not if we take ourselves over seriously.


I noticed that too, but it is unfair. The person who finds bad behavior funny is basically a jerk; a person who feels awful about bad behavior but doesn't know how to fix it is an awkward nice guy. So the fact that humor is more likely to alleviate it than a profound regret is one of the reasons why jerks have better luck than nice guys.

I been on both sides of the fense. Before 2001 I didn't think that I needed any friends and I found it funny when I would say things that would piss people off. Then, in 2001, I was banned from the mailing list, and from that point onward I was obsessively wanting friends and taking everything overly serious. Well, before 2001 people were a lot friendlier to me than after 2001. But it is unfair. Before 2001 I didn't even care about them being nice to me or not; after 2001 I cared about it, A LOT. So they were willing to waste their time on me before 2001 when I didn't even care, yet they didn't want to spend 5 minutes helping me when I desperately DID care.

Will you update us if there is any improvement in relations between you?[/quote]



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01 Sep 2019, 10:37 am

Did I contradict myself?
Oops, sorry.
Are you any closer to knowing how to play this? Personally, I would try to find a moment to apologise.



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01 Sep 2019, 10:48 am

domineekee wrote:
Personally, I would try to find a moment to apologise.


I already apologized (did so few hours after that embarrassing question) and she still didn't talk to me. Then, two days later, I turned my table around so that I won't stare at her (and told her that). She still didn't talk to me. What else should I do?



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01 Sep 2019, 10:52 am

QFT wrote:
domineekee wrote:
Personally, I would try to find a moment to apologise.


I already apologized (did so few hours after that embarrassing question) and she still didn't talk to me. Then, two days later, I turned my table around so that I won't stare at her (and told her that). She still didn't talk to me. What else should I do?

Shrug it off, you tried your best.



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01 Sep 2019, 11:00 am

domineekee wrote:
QFT wrote:
domineekee wrote:
Personally, I would try to find a moment to apologise.


I already apologized (did so few hours after that embarrassing question) and she still didn't talk to me. Then, two days later, I turned my table around so that I won't stare at her (and told her that). She still didn't talk to me. What else should I do?

Shrug it off, you tried your best.


Well it's hard to shrug it off since I am stuck with her in the office for the whole year.

And even if I could somehow ignore her, where else should I look for making friends and/or finding a girlfriend? Wait for yet another year for the new students in August 2020? I already am 39 and wasted best years of my life and now I have to throw away yet another year.



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01 Sep 2019, 11:14 am

QFT wrote:
domineekee wrote:
QFT wrote:
domineekee wrote:
Personally, I would try to find a moment to apologise.


I already apologized (did so few hours after that embarrassing question) and she still didn't talk to me. Then, two days later, I turned my table around so that I won't stare at her (and told her that). She still didn't talk to me. What else should I do?

Shrug it off, you tried your best.


Well it's hard to shrug it off since I am stuck with her in the office for the whole year.

And even if I could somehow ignore her, where else should I look for making friends and/or finding a girlfriend? Wait for yet another year for the new students in August 2020? I already am 39 and wasted best years of my life and now I have to throw away yet another year.


Gosh, I don't know, I'm in the same boat or possibly much worse. I try to stay open minded, you never know, life goes up and life goes down. Did you find her attractive?



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01 Sep 2019, 11:32 am

domineekee wrote:
QFT wrote:
domineekee wrote:
QFT wrote:
domineekee wrote:
Personally, I would try to find a moment to apologise.


I already apologized (did so few hours after that embarrassing question) and she still didn't talk to me. Then, two days later, I turned my table around so that I won't stare at her (and told her that). She still didn't talk to me. What else should I do?

Shrug it off, you tried your best.


Well it's hard to shrug it off since I am stuck with her in the office for the whole year.

And even if I could somehow ignore her, where else should I look for making friends and/or finding a girlfriend? Wait for yet another year for the new students in August 2020? I already am 39 and wasted best years of my life and now I have to throw away yet another year.


Gosh, I don't know, I'm in the same boat or possibly much worse. I try to stay open minded, you never know, life goes up and life goes down. Did you find her attractive?


Well I wouldn't say she is super duper attractive, but I will say she is in the top half -- which is a lot to say given that most of my ex's were severely overweight. The girl in my office is average weight -- and I never had an opportunity to date someone of average weight or anywhere close to that.

Even more importantly, she is a mathematician -- and none of my ex's were. The best I could get -- from academic standpoint -- was my second ex who was doing her PhD in biochemistry when we started dating, but then she changed her plans and got masters instead. The other two ex-s never been to college altogether. I was trying -- unsuccessfully -- to persuade my third ex to go to community college and major in history since history was the only subject she could remotely agree to study. Well quite frankly I would prefer mathematician or physicist over a historian for sure, and more than likely I would prefer a mathematician or physicist over a biochemist too. And I would certainly prefer someone in a PhD program over someone who only got a master's, let along the other ex's with whom I had to fight to get them do a bachelor.

On a positive side, there were other girls besides her who started this fall. But -- unlike her -- they aren't in my office, so when exactly will they approach me and under what circumstance? That orientation week was for us getting to know each other and I missed that opportunity. And now they all moved on I suppose.



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01 Sep 2019, 12:02 pm

Being defeatist isn't going to help your cause, or over thinking things. Put you best foot forward. (elsewhere)
You're educated, smart, your prospects aren't so bleak.



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01 Sep 2019, 12:06 pm

Do you have a coffe room?
It's the best place to approach people in my institute. It's a place to discuss physics, politics, bicycles and whatever interests anyone and joining a discusssion is quite acceptable.
There was one guy on my floor who never talked to anyone anything more than "hello" - I guess his social skills were low even for a theoretical physicist - but we started talking to each other when the coffee machine broke. Trying to figure out how to repair it.
No, it didn't go further, I was already married. I just point out that a coffee room is the best place to unofficially meet other scientists. If you don't drink coffee, bring some fancy tea or whatever you like and offer it to others just to start a conversation.
Oh, you can bring cookies to your office and offer them. Just to start interaction. And then talk on some neutral topic like board games or whatever you like.


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01 Sep 2019, 12:24 pm

Hey, I've got to go now. Will be online for a couple of days.
Good luck QFT.