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Mona Pereth
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21 Aug 2022, 7:11 pm

cyberdad wrote:
To be fair even NTs have to mask at some level. It's called maintaining one's composure, practicing active listening and being polite etc....

Social anxiety is widespread even among extrovert NTs. The desire to socialise face to face is a driving motivator to compromise ones individual compulsions and control urges to blurt something that you know will cause other people to feel uncomfortable (e.g. personal opinions, expressing inner thoughts etc).

That's one type of masking.

Autistic masking often involves much more, such as forcing oneself to make unnatural eye contact, and is much more tiresome and distracting for those who do it.


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Mona Pereth
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21 Aug 2022, 7:40 pm

KitLily wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
You are like a lot of members on WP, you seem quite articulate and likeable. A lot of these reservations about your capacity to socialise and make friends could end by joining a club/group/association. Common interests are big ice breaker.


Thanks but I've been there, done that. I've never done well in clubs. I've tried Meetup, Pilates, community organisations, local charities, dancing, (in the past) mother and toddler. I've tried everything. They just fizzle out with the common opinion: Who is this weird woman?? I'm always 'wrong' in some way. I was even told that I wasn't needed to volunteer at the food charity, but if I could go and spend lots of money there I'd be welcome. Erm...?

Have you tried the things I suggested here (at the bottom of the previous page of this thread) just now?

One other suggestion: Perhaps you could try to start an online group of autistic writers and editors? Or something similar?


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22 Aug 2022, 8:00 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
Are there any specific kinds of things you especially enjoy reading, writing, or watching on TV? Are there any specific topics or genres you are especially interested in?

What specific kinds of books do you edit?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you, as an editor, could easily become an occasional guest of honor at various writers' groups. Perhaps you could contact various writers' groups and offer to give occasional presentations (either online webinars or in-person, if the group is local enough) on how to be a successful writer on topic/genre X?

Perhaps there are other people with whom you could enjoy watching races on TV together?


I decided to answer your questions like this because the quotes were getting too confusing :lol:

Yes there are various topics I enjoy reading/writing/watching on TV, they change all the time really.

Books I edit: generally all types of romance, fantasy, sci-fi, drama, comedy.

I am no way expert or confident enough to contact writers groups or give presentations! I'd be terrified, I've never given a presentation in my life. I work quietly in the background, I don't publicise myself at all.

I found a motorsport fan group on Meetup who went to races together but they didn't want to watch races on TV and the group closed due to lack of money for the fees.


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22 Aug 2022, 8:05 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
Have you tried the things I suggested here (at the bottom of the previous page of this thread) just now?

One other suggestion: Perhaps you could try to start an online group of autistic writers and editors? Or something similar?


Thanks for pointing out your list. This forum is very confusing and whenever I look up my posts it's hard to see if there are new comments.

I could try with a group but I've started so many online groups, they haven't gone well with infighting etc. so I'm a bit wary. I suppose that was on Facebook though, where else would I start one?


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Mona Pereth
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22 Aug 2022, 9:41 am

KitLily wrote:
I could try with a group but I've started so many online groups,

At least you're experienced at starting online groups! That's a good start. And I'm glad to meet another group leader/starter.

KitLily wrote:
they haven't gone well with infighting etc. so I'm a bit wary.

How to deal with infighting, etc., is a topic we could discuss at great length. I have a lot to say about this topic and I'd love to discuss it with you if you are interested, but would prefer to do so in a separate new thread rather than here in this thread on the topic of friendship. Would you like to start the new thread, or shall I?

KitLily wrote:
I suppose that was on Facebook though, where else would I start one?

Twitter now has a new feature called "Communities", detailed here.

Another alternative is to create a "subreddit" on Reddit.

Another popular alternative, these days, is to create a Discord server.

Yet another alternative, albeit one requiring a lot more time and effort, is to create an old-fashioned message board forum like WP.

No matter where you start your group(s), you can't completely avoid infighting. You can only learn ways to mitigate it. But, as I said, that's a topic we could discuss at great length in another thread.


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22 Aug 2022, 1:56 pm

Mona Pereth. Thanks for taking such an interest in my welfare :)

You've given me a lot to think about, which I will do. All these discussions on WP with the nice and thoughtful people are really helping me decide what I think about friends and what I want in that area.


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23 Aug 2022, 12:24 am

It's not the quantity of friends that count, but the quality of your friendships.


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KitLily
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23 Aug 2022, 4:38 am

CockneyRebel wrote:
It's not the quantity of friends that count, but the quality of your friendships.


Yes. I just want 3 or 4 close friends, it's not much to ask. Having zero friends is lonely.

I've also decided that I don't want to make an online community. I spend hours a day peering at the computer screen doing my editing work. I don't want to spend my free time peering at the computer screen moderating an online community. :?


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Mona Pereth
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27 Aug 2022, 1:32 pm

Yes, building an online community is a lot of work.

Hopefully you'll eventually be able to find "3 or 4 close friends" within the already-existing autistic community. Here is a list of forums and social media communities for autistic people.


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Mona Pereth
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26 Jan 2023, 4:01 pm

Revisiting this thread because I happened to have occasion to refer to it in another thread.

Back here, I wrote:

Mona Perety wrote:
According to Shasta Nelson, a friendship must have 3 aspects: "positivity," "vulnerability," and "consistency."

What she calls "positivity" roughly corresponds to what I call "companionship" (enjoying each other's company; having fun together).

What she calls "vulnerabilty" roughly corresponds to what I call "emotional intimacy" (feeling free to reveal aspects of oneself that one does not show to the general public).

What she calls "consistency" means seeing each other regularly, or at least being in regular contact, over a long period of time. This can be a result of either deliberate plans or just happening to see each other regularly, e.g. by attending the same class.

Shasta Nelson says that, of her 3 requirements of friendship, what she calls "positivity" must come first. I would say that's probably true for most people in most circumstances, but there are exceptions. For example, if two people happen to meet each other in a support group, then it seems to me that mutual "vulnerability" (emotional intimacy) can come first, before "positivity."

To compare her view of friendship with mine, more generally:

I see friendship as having four foundations:

1) Companionship (see above).
2) Emotional intimacy (see above).
3) Comradeship (facing common challenges together).
4) Exchange of favors.

As I see it, a friendship doesn't necessarily require all four of the above foundations, but it needs at least three out of the four.

What Shasta Nelson calls "consistency" is then what enables a friendship to grow from these foundations.

I would now say that, in order for a friendship to grow from these foundations, it needs more than just "consistency."

In order for a friendship to last long at all, much less grow, the people also need to have a mutually agreeable way of handling any disagreements or conflicts that may arise between them. It is highly unlikely that any two people will mesh perfectly enough not to have any disagreements or conflicts, so they need a way to prevent their friendship from being destroyed by the inevitable disagreements/conflicts.

For many people, their preferred way of handling disagreements/conflicts seems to be avoidance plus subtle hints, with an expectation that the other person will read their mind. This approach might actually work okay most of the time, if the two people happen to be similar enough, both neurologically and culturally, to understand each other instinctively.

But it's unlikely to work well for autistic people. So, for autistic people, I think it's of vital importance to learn explicit conflict resolution skills, such as how to be assertive without being aggressive. These same skills can be also helpful for NT/allistic people, many of whom have never learned these skills.

Anyhow, back to friendship more generally. One of the characteristics of a close friendship that I forgot to mention earlier is loyalty.


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27 Jan 2023, 6:24 pm

P.S.: Regarding what's necessary to build a friendship, from what I've identified as the foundations of friendship, above I mentioned "consistency" (regular or semi-regular interaction) and having compatible views on how to handle disagreements and potential conflicts. It's also helpful to have compatible beliefs and values more generally.


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27 Jan 2023, 10:28 pm

Looking now at another online resource on friendship:

- 5 Requirements for a Strong Friendship by Riley’s Way Council member Giavanna Gambino in partnership with the One Love Foundation.

Their 5 requirements are:

1. Trust
2. Equality
3. Compassion
4. Honesty
5. Independence

My comments on each of these items:

1) Trust: By "trust," they primarily mean being trustworthy, e.g. "An example of having a trustworthy friend is being able to talk to them about a personal issue you are facing, knowing that what is said will stay between the two of you...."

Agreed.

2) Equality: "Both friends should be able to make decisions together and compromise without being shut down."

Agreed, but I'm not sure "equality" is the best word for this. It is almost inevitable that one friend will be more assertive than the other, or be more privileged than the other, in one way or another. What's important is that decisions be made with mutual respect.

3) Compassion: "Having compassion is when you are able to be empathetic and genuinely there for your friends on a daily basis and during times of need."

Hmmmm, I don't think being available "daily" is necessarily feasible for many people, given that most people are up to their ears in other responsibilities. But I agree that a real friend will do one's best to make time in time of real need, and will also listen compassionately.

4) Honesty: By "honesty," this article means honesty about everything, including things like "whether or not you like your friend’s outfit."

I'm inclined to agree with this in terms of what I personally want from my friends, but I think it's an over-generalization to make this a requirement of "strong friendship" for everyone. Instead, what I think is a universal requirement of "strong friendship" for everyone is that friends have compatible value systems regarding honesty, both in terms of (1) what level of honesty they desire from each other and (2) what level of honesty they themselves personally manifest. Some people really do want their friends to be totally honest with them about everything, while other people can't handle even the gentlest constructive criticism from a friend.

5) Independence: "In successful friendships, it is always important to be independent of your friend and allow your friend to have their personal space as well. It is never healthy to always need the company of your friend and their constant attention. You should both have other friends and hobbies besides each other. Getting upset when you are not your friend’s 'only friend' is a sign that independence is needed."

I agree with the concept as explained here, but I think "independence" is too strong a word for it. To me, "independence" means not needing the person, i.e. not needing to depend on the person for anything. Offhand, though, I can't think of a better word for what this article calls "independence." Maybe I'll think of a better word later.


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28 Jan 2023, 7:45 am

thanks, this has been an interesting thread to read. Glad you are keeping it going, it has a lot to offer!


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28 Jan 2023, 2:59 pm

Really interesting thoughts about friendship :heart:


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29 Jan 2023, 1:55 am

Another article: 7 Qualities of a Healthy Friendship That Remain Constant, Even as Relationships Change by Erica Sloan, Well + Good, September 30, 2021.

Her 7 qualities are:

1. Reciprocity
2. Support
3. Boundaries
4. Affection
5. Ease
6. Vulnerability
7. Predictability

My comments on each of these, in turn:

1) Reciprocity: This includes being on the same page about how close the friendship is, how much and what kinds of attention to expect from each other, and where the friendship fits in to both one's own and the other person's lives.

(I've noticed that a few people here on WP seem to have had frequent breakups with friends due to misunderstandings about this sort of thing.)

2) Support: Having each other's back, being there for each other in time of trouble. Indeed, I would say that the very essence of friendship is caring about each other's well-being.

The closer the friendship, the greater the degree of support that is given when needed. In today's world at least, practical support (e.g. visiting one's friend in the hospital) typically happens only in very close friendships, whereas emotional support, to some degree at least, can be expected from a wider circle of friends.

3) Boundaries: Being clear about what you are or are not willing/able to do for/with each other. Necessary to prevent misunderstandings.

4) Affection: The article says: "It might sound obvious, but you actually have to like a friend better than you would a stranger in order for the friendship to work."

In terms of my own paradigm of the four foundations of friendship (companionship, emotional intimacy, comradeship, and mutual favors), liking each other is a key aspect of companionship (enjoying each other's company). It's not necessarily a prerequisite to any of the other three foundations of friendship, although they (especially emotional intimacy) are far less likely without it.

5) Ease: "A friendship can flourish only when both people in it feel comfortable around each other. 'If you always feel like you need to be on guard or like you're walking on eggshells, you won’t reap the social-health benefits of true friendship,' says Dr. Franco."

Certainly, feeling at ease with each other is very much to be desired.

But it might not be possible in all friendships, and I would hesitate to make a rule that a friendship without "ease" should always be discarded. For example, a friendship between two people with trauma-based mental illnesses might require lots of mutual eggshell-walking to avoid triggering each other, but nevertheless might be a very valuable friendship to both parties, perhaps even a key part of their recovery.

On the topic of "ease," this article also makes another generalization that I think goes too far: "In that vein, a good friendship also has to be void of any power dynamic, she [Dr. Marisa G. Franco] adds: 'If one person holds more power than the other, the second person can never really be at ease, or have the latitude to be their authentic self and get their needs met.'"

In general I agree that it's a good idea to seek out friends who are approximately one's equals in terms of social status and overall power. However, I also think being too much of a purist about this would result in fragile friendships that break apart as soon as either friend's fortunes rise or fall.

It seems to me that sufficient mutual fondness can greatly lessen (though not eliminate entirely) the ill-effects of a power imbalance. And I want friendships that are robust enough to survive any change in power or social status, up or down, on the part of either friend.

6) Vulnerability: Essentially the same thing as what I call emotional intimacy, one of the four foundations of friendship.

However, in my paradigm, a friendship needs at least three of the four foundations, but not necessarily all four of them.

In Western culture at least, the traditional male friendship is based on companionship, comradeship, and mutual favors, but lacks emotional intimacy.

On the other hand, the traditional female friendship is based on companionship, emotional intimacy, and mutual favors, but lacks comradeship.

The contemporary upper-middle-class-based pop-psychology ideal of friendship seems to me to be based on companionship (in very high doses -- too high for many introverts and autistic people) plus emotional intimacy, but without much if any comradeship (except perhaps comradeship-lite, e.g. from doing volunteer work for the same charity together), and without mutual favors (except perhaps in an already extremely close friendship), due to the ideal that people are supposed to be able to pay for everything they need and not "impose" on their friends for anything.

It seems to me that a friendship that is based on only two of the four foundations, rather than on at least three of them, is likely to be very fragile.

7) Predictability: essentially the same thing as what Shasta Nelson calls "consistency." (In my paradigm, predictability/consistency is one of the things that enables one to build a friendship on top of its foundations.)


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Last edited by Mona Pereth on 29 Jan 2023, 2:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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29 Jan 2023, 2:08 am

So where do you fit in the simple quid-pro-quo exchange of goods and services that keep a friendship together?


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