Cant tell if this person loves me or hates me?

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Yes, but plenty of more "normal" people sometimes engage in it too.


I think it's premature to conclude that those articles will give her "all the answers." I think she should first attempt to resolve her issues with him in a reasonable assertive way, before concluding that he is a generally "toxic/abusive" person. The latter is certainly a possibility, but, at this point, shouldn't be our conclusion of first resort.

While narcissistic, generally "toxic/abusive" people certainly do exist in all-too-great abundance, a much more common problem is plain old garden-variety passive-aggressiveness.

Lots and lots of perfectly "normal" people are passive-aggressive merely because they have never learned conflict-resolution skills, such as how to be assertive without being aggressive. These communication skills can be learned. (See this list of tutorial pages on assertiveness.) But many (most?) people, including many (most?) NT's, have never learned them.

Sometimes also, even if people do know how to be assertive without being aggressive, they will still be passive-aggressive out of sheer laziness, or because today's popular culture just doesn't place a high enough value on conflict resolution.

Today's pop-cultural tendency to jump to the conclusion that anyone whom one doesn't get along with must be "toxic/abusive" compounds the above-mentioned problem.

To RacoKula: Please see also my post here.

Last edited by Mona Pereth on 09 Jan 2023, 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I just chalk it all up to mental health issues

I am not convinced he is a narcissist. I think the narcissist label is a deflector hiding a more avoidant type disorder. I mean, if you tell people you are a narcissist, people will run away because no one wants to get entangled with you....which would suit an avoidant type well.

It reminds me of the Scooby Doo shows I watched as a child. When the sleuths were getting close to finding the perpetrator, the bad guy would project a larger-than life villain on a screen and everyone would flee out of fear. But Velma would usually see through the ruse, figure out the problem, and expose a man who just wanted to scare everyone away.

If he is in this friends circle with the OP why would he single her out for this passive aggressive treatment unless he had severe psychological problems,she's done nothing wrong to him.

He doesn't talk to her in person but focusses on a dog .....even though he has good social skills and isn't autistic..

Then he refuses to acknowledge her even when she is in his line of sight. Insane.

It is tempting to try to figure him out and be understanding...but that would just lead OP to be subject to more abuse.

I have personal experience of this.

That was exactly what I experienced,it never got better.

If OP actually got into a relationship with this person she'd experience much worse abuse.

Neither you nor I know the history. You and I have no idea how she might have inadvertently offended him, for example.


It might, or it might not. We don't know yet. IMO she should try to resolve the issue and then see what happens. Things might get better, or they might not.

I don't think the OP should have endless patience, but I do think it's premature, at this point, to jump to conclusions.

The current cultural trend of encouraging people to be quick to jump to conclusions about other people is, itself, very bad for autistic people. (See Autistics Make Others Uncomfortable, Instantly by Christopher Scott Wyatt, January 14, 2018.)


It is certainly premature for the OP to consider getting into a romantic relationship with this person. And, if things don't get a whole lot better, soon, and stay better, then I agree that she should NOT get into a relationship with him.

I don't think there's a chance that she inadvertently offended him because after being weird with the dog he suggested that she buy him a drink i.e. go on a date.

Narcissist's behaviour is confusing, it's part of what keeps certain people hooked.

I understand that it might seem hypocritical for me to suggest rejecting someone based on weird behaviour when I'm tired of that same rejection myself.
It's self-preservation though.

Last edited by klanka on 10 Jan 2023, 8:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

This forum seems to be obsessed with the narcissist label. And I doubt many here actually are narcissists because the fools that are called narcissists prefer to be among their kind, feeding each other with bs, or finding more fuel for their fodder, and therefore usually prefer the real world.

I think it's more likely he has a multitude of interests and distractions. That his mind is not sure what it wants and that at any given moment, another side kicks in and wants a different thing or person. Kind of like how a schizophrenic is with loose association but deeper than that. So just when he seems to be narrowing in on a certain 'goal' another brain wave takes over and says, "Hey! I don't want that, I want this!" Rendering him in a state of frustration and confusion, and others as well. He probably knows that trying to relate with one person is futile in this state of being and therefore retreats, scaring people into thinking he is a narcissist because it is way easier than allowing someone inside.....where Pandora's box lurks.

Yes that mindset is what leads many people to get involved with narcissists. The hope that they are just a misunderstood poor soul who needs a little help.

Denial is a b***h aint it

Klanka I appreciate the articles/insights you've given and will definitely keep them in mind. I've a narcissistic mother so I like to believe I pick up on that pretty quickly, though. Still, you're right in saying that this might not be a situation I should deal with for too long, and I should keep an eye on him.
Maybe he's just a good actor, but I actually don't believe what he's doing is conscious. I think I mentioned there are moments when he engages with me, and like we do in text, when that happens we get along like a house on fire. This is what our friends have noticed too. He still can't look me in the eye though. If I think about the few times we've been in person, I spent most of the time talking to his ear, heh.


What I do think is that for whatever reason this person feels uneasy with me. Not sure if I can chalk it up to a crush like was mentioned before, or something I said that triggered him. It's happened in such a way that no one event sticks out, which would make things a lot easier to boil down.
I would definitely like to say something about it to him to see what the response would be. Preferably in person to see if he tries to rectify it or carries on/denies it. That way at least I know if he cares that he's upsetting me. I sense that will be the point where I have to decide if I want to interact with him at all or not.
For the record as well, I don't think he was asking for a date with the drink comment. It's more or less inevitable that we're going to be at the same gatherings again, and without a follow up I'm guessing that's what he meant.

I was also thinking about something unusual he did a while ago. It's the main reason I don't immediately say that he dislikes me or does these things on purpose.
Within our group we play games communally. We'll go on Discord, usually in a voice call in an organized event. This particular time, I brought in a new game I'd found with a lot of puzzles. It took me ages to explain the rules/mechanics and I demo'd a few rounds just to show everyone what to do as we were going to try it in teams next.
When I say this guy was my star pupil, I'm not exaggerating. He acted SUPER interested in the game (maybe he was) and came in with tons of questions, asked me to explain things he was seeing, etc. He completely went out of his way to make me feel less nervous, and demanded to be on my team, too (he wanted to win). It's the first time we actually ended up speaking 1-1 and the point where I learned we can get along when he tries.

Ok sounds good, glad you're cautious.

They don't do these things conciously , they are like automatic behaviours. Apparently even the most innocent little mistake can cause a great insult to a narcissist then they turn on you, permanently.
So you may have said an innocent comment which hurt his ego. But it's not fixable.

I can see the board game incident giving you hope but it's just the hot/cold behaviour. It's still quite strange and exaggerated behaviour that he showed at the board game event. Although it was positive.

I think over time,if you keep your distance, you'll see him unleash rage against someone in the group or do something that shows a total lack of empathy.

Missmary: yes gets us in a lot of trouble.


The official advice says to go no contact,ie leave the group and block his number. I assume this is not something you're willing to do. Just try to minimise contact if you want to observe him to make sure he is what I'm saying. They can pull you in and get you emotionally attached very easily, so guard against that.
I have a question for you:
Did your mother do that thing where she is pleasant on the phone but a nightmare in person?

Indeed, one should always be cautious with people whom one doesn't know well. "Love many, trust few," as the saying goes.


It remains to be seen whether it is "fixable" in this particular case. Let's not jump to conclusions.


This "official advice" is sometimes necessary, but VERY premature in this particular case.

And the current fad of people preaching the gospel of this "official advice," in situations where it is premature at best, is a major social problem in today's world, IMO.

Last edited by Mona Pereth on 10 Jan 2023, 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Nah she's the kind that plies people with gifts then calls them ungrateful when they won't do whatever she wants in return.

If he's a narcissist, he's a completely different breed from her. Maybe he's just very good at playing the calm/humble facade and I'll see something in future like you said.
I don't get the same bad vibes I tend to get with narcissists. His behavior is definitely confusing but seems like he's just as confused, if that makes sense?

Hmm I've known few but had years of experience. I think it's possible for them to be confused yes. As the majority are either not aware of what they are doing or don't know why they do things.

Sometimes they even comment that what they are doing is abuse or not good, but then continue anyway.

I spent more than a year reading the articles and listening to videos. It got to be pointless after learning a certain amount so I haven't read that stuff in a long time.

I think one I knew was torture to be around but pleasant on the phone, and another was different.

I don't get bad vibes usually from narcissists until they do something really bad.
You sensed coldness but not to an extreme of it seeming too negative I suppose.

Mona: narcissistic abuse is really bad,it ruins lives. what I'm suggesting is exercising caution. I do seem definite about this person I've never met having a certain psychiatric condition because his behaviour is bizarre and fits in exactly with my past experiences and certain articles.
In life we don't have the luxury of waiting for people with narcissism to be officially diagnosed or break their facade before exercising caution and distancing from them.

No, you're advocating more than just exercising caution. If you were advocating only caution at this point, I would agree with you.

You were advocating immediate "no contact," while acknowledging that the OP probably wouldn't be willing to do this.


I, on the other hand, have had similar experiences with people who were just prejudiced against me for one reason or another, and who in some cases eventually overcame their prejudices after I confronted them.

I've also had bad experiences with some people who were indeed extremely manipulative and (probably) severely narcissistic, and with whom I eventually did cut off contact entirely.


I don't mean to suggest we should wait for an official diagnosis, which the average person with NPD would be highly unlikely to seek anyway.

I just think one should, at least initially, attempt to resolve one's difficulties with the person. Then, if the difficulties turn out to be unresolvable, then cutting off contact may or may not be appropriate, depending on how bad the situation is.

Judging by your history you (secretly) like it too.

It's deeper than that, for some. Similarities between NPD and ASD symptoms oftentimes hard for people to differentiate. Sometimes there's not just one answer either, can be autism and narcissism mixed in one.

These posts are usually made by people who have let these partners in but have been disappointed which is not great in itself. They're holding on to it. It's very rare they're annoyed from the get-go, incipient relationships tend to actually be asking for what should be done and expected in general.