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KitLily
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06 Mar 2023, 8:55 am

Sorry if I've posted a similar thread before, I hope I haven't.

I’ve started this thread, mainly for myself so I can put all my observations in one place. Feel free to add to it! Sorry if these points are blatantly obvious, I just hope it helps some people, including myself.

• When talking with NTs, don’t listen carefully and respond to every point they make. Don’t ask them to explain what they mean. Just say ‘uh huh’ and carry on with what you want to say. They don’t like to be questioned and have everything they say responded to. A good conversation with them would be where you are talking at a tangent to them, partially related but not the same. Use a lot of ‘I think’ ‘I am’ ‘I believe’ statements. This is the opposite to the advice given by 'Communication Experts', because their advice doesn't work for autists.

• I've come to learn that NTs prioritise WHO is giving the advice or message, over WHAT the advice or message is. You can give the most sensible advice in the world but NTs won't listen if they don't like you or trust you or know you. They don't prioritise WHAT is actually in the message, they prioritise WHO the person is giving it. That's why very popular people can say ridiculous nonsense and it's slavishly followed. Whereas unpopular people like myself can give the most sensible and accurate advice and guidance, and it's completely ignored. This is the opposite of autists because we prioritise the actual message not the person giving it. I wonder if this is the core reason why autists and non-autists can't communicate: we prioritise the substance of the message and they prioritise who is giving the message.


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DuckHairback
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09 Mar 2023, 8:37 am

I think these are good points and worth remembering however...

I also think that one of the big mistakes I make in dealing with people is adherence to rules and pre-planning my interactions.

Don't get me wrong, there are rules to social interaction, for sure, but they're complex and contextual and require you to be processing things in the moment and adapting to the new information.

And isn't that just the problem for those of us who struggle to read the cues and contexts in the moment? I often find I can figure out what went wrong in a conversation afterwards, when I have time to think about what was said and how and process it all - then I can see when I said something weird or otherwise responded inappropriately.

I don't want to sound defeatist but I find applying rules to NT interactions gets me so far, and is VERY helpful in transactional interactions, but the rest of the time I'm left confused and wondering why my rules didn't work this time.


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Raleigh
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09 Mar 2023, 9:00 am

I get on really well with neurotypicals, most of the time, but I don't know how or why.
It's a mystery to me.
I can't explain it.
I say and do whatever and they seem to think I'm amazing, even if what say and do is crap.
Not boasting at all here, I'm genuinely perplexed by this.
Unless it's like a virtual pity f**k.


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KitLily
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09 Mar 2023, 11:55 am

DuckHairback wrote:
I think these are good points and worth remembering however...

I also think that one of the big mistakes I make in dealing with people is adherence to rules and pre-planning my interactions.

I don't want to sound defeatist but I find applying rules to NT interactions gets me so far, and is VERY helpful in transactional interactions, but the rest of the time I'm left confused and wondering why my rules didn't work this time.


I have just decided to talk about what I want to with people. I don't listen carefully to what they say and refer to it. I've discovered they don't like that. They get nervous and worried if I answer their questions and pick up on everything they say. They prefer it if I just woffle on about my own topic and then we have a kind of 'talking at cross purposes' conversation and both go away happy.

It just seems to be how they tick. English people anyway. Maybe all these 'communication experts' are talking about Americans? I have just found that if I carefully follow all the advice of 'communication experts' it is the exact opposite of what NTs like.

Even if I remember people's names after our last meeting (like you're supposed to!), they get freaked out and say 'how do you know my name?' They seem to think I'm deaf and dumb and don't pick up on people's names. Very, very far from being delighted that I remembered names. Weirddddddd!


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KitLily
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09 Mar 2023, 11:57 am

Raleigh wrote:
I get on really well with neurotypicals, most of the time, but I don't know how or why.
It's a mystery to me.
I can't explain it.
I say and do whatever and they seem to think I'm amazing, even if what say and do is crap.
Not boasting at all here, I'm genuinely perplexed by this.
Unless it's like a virtual pity f**k.


How old are you?

I found that when I was in my teens, 20s and early 30s, people saw me as a charming eccentric. However as I got older, people began seeing me as 'that weird old woman' instead, especially now I'm in my 50s.

I think we can get away with more as a young person but by the time we reach 40, we're expected to have 'grown out of all that' and become 'mature.' Charming eccentric behaviours don't cut it as an older person.


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klanka
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09 Mar 2023, 12:35 pm

It could be that nt's hear an autistic tone to our voice and notice just general cluelessness. So trying to follow rules won't help.
That's been my experience.


Kind of like if you tried to teach Raymond from rain man a few rules. It would just exasperate him when it didn't work out as he'd hoped.



DuckHairback
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09 Mar 2023, 12:55 pm

KitLily wrote:
DuckHairback wrote:
I think these are good points and worth remembering however...

I also think that one of the big mistakes I make in dealing with people is adherence to rules and pre-planning my interactions.

I don't want to sound defeatist but I find applying rules to NT interactions gets me so far, and is VERY helpful in transactional interactions, but the rest of the time I'm left confused and wondering why my rules didn't work this time.


I have just decided to talk about what I want to with people. I don't listen carefully to what they say and refer to it. I've discovered they don't like that. They get nervous and worried if I answer their questions and pick up on everything they say. They prefer it if I just woffle on about my own topic and then we have a kind of 'talking at cross purposes' conversation and both go away happy.

It just seems to be how they tick. English people anyway. Maybe all these 'communication experts' are talking about Americans? I have just found that if I carefully follow all the advice of 'communication experts' it is the exact opposite of what NTs like.

Even if I remember people's names after our last meeting (like you're supposed to!), they get freaked out and say 'how do you know my name?' They seem to think I'm deaf and dumb and don't pick up on people's names. Very, very far from being delighted that I remembered names. Weirddddddd!


Hmm. I have to say, I find some of this surprising and not at all what I've experienced. Almost the exact opposite. But your experience is your experience, I'm not going to tell you you're wrong.

I will say, however, that I find Americans in real life extremely difficult to talk to. Online, no problem. I imagine me talking to an American is much how an NT feels talking to me - just that there's some sort of weird disconnect happening despite us both notionally speaking the same language.


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DuckHairback
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09 Mar 2023, 12:58 pm

klanka wrote:
It could be that nt's hear an autistic tone to our voice and notice just general cluelessness. So trying to follow rules won't help.
That's been my experience.


I think you're on the right track. I believe that there's some sort of discrepancy between what we're saying and our non-verbal cues that makes NTs experience discomfort when talking to many ND people. They come away feeling that something was 'off' about that person, like we trigger some sort of cautionary response in them.

With the usual caveats that I'm generalising, not *all* NTs, not *all* NDs. But some sort of trend.


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KitLily
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09 Mar 2023, 2:11 pm

klanka wrote:
It could be that nt's hear an autistic tone to our voice and notice just general cluelessness. So trying to follow rules won't help.
That's been my experience.


Kind of like if you tried to teach Raymond from rain man a few rules. It would just exasperate him when it didn't work out as he'd hoped.


I suppose I don't mean 'rules' I just mean general things to do. I don't mean 'do A, B, C and D and you'll be fine.' I just mean 'in general, do A.'


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KitLily
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09 Mar 2023, 2:15 pm

DuckHairback wrote:
Hmm. I have to say, I find some of this surprising and not at all what I've experienced. Almost the exact opposite. But your experience is your experience, I'm not going to tell you you're wrong.

I will say, however, that I find Americans in real life extremely difficult to talk to. Online, no problem. I imagine me talking to an American is much how an NT feels talking to me - just that there's some sort of weird disconnect happening despite us both notionally speaking the same language.


How funny that it's the opposite.

I've generally found that the less I pay attention to people, the more they like me. If I pay close attention to what they say and do, and remember their names and details about them, they get paranoid and weird with me.

I think you're right there is a disconnect between what we say and what we do, I think that was your other comment.


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klanka
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09 Mar 2023, 4:39 pm

Yeah I noticed I did mistakes,as in faux pas. Then I corrected said mistakes, but nothing overall improved.

I think your advice is still sound though.
Not trying to s**t on your thread or anything :D



Raleigh
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09 Mar 2023, 5:07 pm

KitLily wrote:
Raleigh wrote:
I get on really well with neurotypicals, most of the time, but I don't know how or why.
It's a mystery to me.
I can't explain it.
I say and do whatever and they seem to think I'm amazing, even if what say and do is crap.
Not boasting at all here, I'm genuinely perplexed by this.
Unless it's like a virtual pity f**k.


How old are you?

I found that when I was in my teens, 20s and early 30s, people saw me as a charming eccentric. However as I got older, people began seeing me as 'that weird old woman' instead, especially now I'm in my 50s.

I think we can get away with more as a young person but by the time we reach 40, we're expected to have 'grown out of all that' and become 'mature.' Charming eccentric behaviours don't cut it as an older person.

The opposite is true for me.
I was the weird loner when I was younger.
Now I have a large and exhausting social circle, and I haven't gained any "maturity".
If anything, I've regressed.


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DuckHairback
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09 Mar 2023, 5:31 pm

Raleigh wrote:
KitLily wrote:
Raleigh wrote:
I get on really well with neurotypicals, most of the time, but I don't know how or why.
It's a mystery to me.
I can't explain it.
I say and do whatever and they seem to think I'm amazing, even if what say and do is crap.
Not boasting at all here, I'm genuinely perplexed by this.
Unless it's like a virtual pity f**k.


How old are you?

I found that when I was in my teens, 20s and early 30s, people saw me as a charming eccentric. However as I got older, people began seeing me as 'that weird old woman' instead, especially now I'm in my 50s.

I think we can get away with more as a young person but by the time we reach 40, we're expected to have 'grown out of all that' and become 'mature.' Charming eccentric behaviours don't cut it as an older person.

The opposite is true for me.
I was the weird loner when I was younger.
Now I have a large and exhausting social circle, and I haven't gained any "maturity".
If anything, I've regressed.


How did you do this Raleigh?

My experience was closer to KitLily's. In the crucible of school and early jobs, when people were forced to spend time with me, it was easier. I was still an oddball, but people had to get used to it and they started to look beyond the weird stuff and see the more interesting stuff going on behind it. As much as I hated school, I had some friends back then.

Now I'm older no one is forced to spend time with me so they don't get beyond that superficial level. If I weird them out early on they're happy to say "No, thanks" and move on.

How did you amass this large social circle?


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KitLily
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22 Mar 2023, 1:53 am

My experience is the same as Duckhairback's. I'm not 'allowed' to be weird and quirky anymore. I think the 'forced to spend time with me' was the key and they learned to see past the weirdness. I've had numerous people say to me 'I thought you were one sort of person but now I've got to know you, I see you're kind, funny, helpful (or whatever).'

I would also like to know Raleigh's secret method.


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KitLily
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22 Mar 2023, 1:55 am

I also discovered another way to get on with NTs.

Make sure my first interaction with them is helping them in some way. I've realised usually my first interaction with people is correcting them or pointing out a mistake they've made. I **think** I'm being helpful but actually they don't like it! So I'm trying to do that now- be helpful first!


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22 Mar 2023, 2:26 am

Quote:
How to get on with Neurotypicals?


Become a hermit like me. 8)