Why are so many ppl with Aspergers non-believers?

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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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25 Jan 2014, 2:12 pm

wowiexist wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
wowiexist wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
It seems like most Christians are like that where I live. They manipulate people. When I was a kid, if I didn't go to church one Sunday, they would come knocking on my door later that day demanding to know why I wasn't there.


Can I ask where you live? I hear stories like this, but I have lived in some pretty conservative places and never had things like this happen to me.

I live in Oklahoma and as you probably know, it's very Bibley here but not as Bibley as Kansas.


I used to live in Kansas. Yes it seems like the whole area is pretty conservative. Many of the churches are conservative too. It took me a while to find one that appealed to me. I suppose there is probably a big difference as far as if you live in a really small town or in a bigger town or city too.

Not a lot of difference, but some. I blame the plains mentality. Plains people can be goofy because it's difficult and boring living on the plains. The weather is awful most the time and it's so flat with nothing to do. Simple solution, enter goofy states of mind as often as possible.



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25 Jan 2014, 6:17 pm

I prefer to live my life based on evidence based, logical principles. Perhaps there is a god but no evidence exists to prove such a hypothesis. I think religion is great for those who can believe. The religious may very well be right but even if they're not it seems to make some very happy. I simply ask the religious to respect our plural society, stay out of the way of scientific advancement and for them to comprehend that the establishment clause pertains to all religions including their own.



Janissy
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26 Jan 2014, 5:40 pm

Researchers wondered about Aspergers and Atheism too. So they decided to investigate:

http://csjarchive.cogsci.rpi.edu/procee ... er0782.pdf
all following quotes are from the research paper linked.

Quote:
On wrongplanet the forum that was analyzed was
titled Religion/Philosophy/Politics; on golivewire the one
analyzed was titled Religion and Philosophy.


Quote:
We hypothesized that traits typically displayed among
HFA individuals such as attraction to scientism and hyper
rationality would render these individuals less likely to
embrace supernaturalism and religious belief. Consistent
with this, Atheism and Agnosticism were more frequent in
the HFA group than the NT group


Quote:
Although most of the Autism Spectrum Disorder
Thinking Traits did not differ between the two groups,
emphasis on rationality was notably higher for wrongplanet
users. Social discomfort and social disinterest was also
slightly higher for the HFA and NT populations.


Quote:
An extreme type of cognitive style is high
functioning autism. The 2 studies reported here found that
individuals with HFA have a higher rate than neurotypicals
of endorsing atheism and agnosticism. HFA individuals
thus resemble another group of high-systemizers
(scientists), who also reject religious belief at a relatively
high rate.



Lostathome
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26 Jan 2014, 7:48 pm

Because with no offence to you personally, when a preacher says that god "loves" me, I get angry, because this is the same god who made the vast majority of people perfect in mind and body, and made me disabled in mind and hideous beyond belief in body, then left me to suffer at the hands of the creations that he made more fortunate than I. Honestly, I've seen too much weird stuff to fully deny a relatively conventional belief like "god", but I can't bring myself to follow such a god. Not after that. Sure, you could say I'm lucky to live in the first world and all that, but why? It would have been so easy for him just to make me okay like everyone else, why do I have to suffer? I couldn't have done anything to deserve it. I was born like this. What could I possibly accomplish being like this that I couldn't have done faster and better if I wasn't? Raising awareness of autism? That thing I wouldn't be doing if god didn't decide that a load of people should have it a lot harder than everyone else?

Until someone can give me a decent, non vague answer, I couldn't possibly bring myself to follow conventional religion. It doesn't fit. Doesn't make sense.



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28 Jan 2014, 6:55 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
It seems like most Christians are like that where I live. They manipulate people. When I was a kid, if I didn't go to church one Sunday, they would come knocking on my door later that day demanding to know why I wasn't there.


Even as a teenager I would enjoy at such an experience, come to think of it I remember arguing with Sister Michael (my grade 6 teacher, yep I went to catholic primary and secondary schools) about religion. As an adult I positively revel in the opportunity to lock horns with these f**k heads, for some reason they seem to by pass my door these days. cant think why :shrug: :lol:


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28 Jan 2014, 7:42 am

I think it depends much on how you view religion. Many more extreme christian believings, focuses on the miracle stuff of the bible, so Samsons superpowers, creation of world in some seconds, a child born by an virgin, water turned by magic into wine, jesus doing waterskiing without boat.... That is simply stuff, that is magic for me, and there sure will be some historic background for that myths, but that does not make them true, the way they are nowadays written down.

While I dont have any probs, with christians wanting to discuss about Jesus himself, and his impact and believings. There is no need to give him superpowers to appreciate, that for a person living in that time, he was a very moderate reformer, inspiring people. Just like a Ghandi did or a mother Theresa.

I do not blame people of earlier times to have believed in magic religions. Around that time, living simply meant to live in an mysterious world. Sometimes out of nothing people got ill, sometimes that spreaded on to some other people, sometimes it did not. Sometimes the sun got dark out of no reasons, and lightnings came down with no reasons, sometimes gigantic plagues troubked you, sometimes everything was fine... Its normal for humans, that they feel unease in an uncontrolled environment, and inventing gods and religions, that you can pray upon, gives you at least the impact of being able to influence certain stuff.

And getting a new religion spreaded among people, when all that you have to offer in opposition to gods having superpowers, is "I have heard of a normal guy, and he said something very wise..." would not have been much effective.

But I think nowadays this should not be necessary anymore, and that it would benefit christian religions if they would focus on the stuff, that christianity really was about, the stuff that the real existing person Jesus was talking about and the oppinions he had, instead of still focusing on senseless rituals or telling of magic stories, or far worse, telling stuff of the old testament.

I think by forcing that magic stuff to be an core element of their religion, religions are pushing away many peoples, that would otherwise be happy to engage with them together.



aghogday
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28 Jan 2014, 8:54 am

Well...first of all the internet..and the folks actually posting there on sites for people to interact on the spectrum...

Is not at all representative of the full spectrum....

For example research suggests that the mean IQ for individuals professionally diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome..

is 98...

The polls here..while informal..have large samples ...and the average IQ is somewhere around 130...

NO ..that is not at all representative of the general population of individuals actually diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome per the research that exists...

Now..i have my own idea of why this is..based on 53 years..of my experience..and analyzing the experiences of others..as a social scientist..per psychology ..anthropology..and health science...

Research now indicates..that there are two pathways of the brain..for intelligence...

One for Mechanical cognition..the stuff of book learning..

And the other of Social cognition..

The intelligence of LOVE..basically..connection..empathy..and YES DEMONSTRATING..EMPATHY..through COGNITIVE EMPATHY!

Now here's the thing..

COGNITIVE empathy is more or less SOCIAL COGNITION.

SO ERGO..IT IS UNDERSTOOD CLEARLY IN SCIENCE..THAT MANY FOLKS (NOT ALL).. HAVE EXTREME DIFFICULTIES WITH THIS COGNITIVE EMPATHY OR SOCIAL COGNITION..ON THE AUTISM SPECTRUM...

Now here is the other thing...

To understand GOD in WORDS..in METAPHOR..for this POWER AND ENERGY..THAT IS THE ESSENCE OF ALL THINGS..
(by the way...all caps means amplification of point..i am not yelling at ya)

COGNITIVE EMPATHY IS REQUIRED...

TO EXPERIENCE THE POWER AND ENERGY ..THAT IS THE ESSENCE OF ALL THINGS..

OTHERWISE KNOWN AS GOD..THE CHI..KUNDALINI ENERGY..CHRIST ENERGY...THE DAO ..THE QI..THE STUFF
FOLKS HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT FOR 70K YEARS...

NO LANGUAGE..COLLECTIVE INTELLIGENCE..OR COMPLEX CULTURE..

IS REQUIRED...

GOD DON'T HAVE NO FAVORITES..CAUSE GOD AIN'T NO HUMAN PERSONALITY..

GOD IS THE POWER AND ENERGY.. THAT IS THE ESSENCE OF ALL THINGS..

CALL IT NUCLEAR POWER IF YA LIKE..ANY METAPHOR WILL WORK..

THE ESSENCE OF WHAT THIS POWER AND ENERGY IS...

AIN'T GONNA BE CHANGED BY ANY VEHICLE OR VESSEL OF WORD ..CONSTRUCTED BY A SILLY LITTLE ANT
OF A HUMAN BEING...

Okay..i just attempted the almost impossible task of explaining this to folks (most of which) have great difficulty with social cognition..
yes this thing..called cognitive empathy...

Just cause ya can't figure out a word for this power and energy that is the essence of all things...

don't necessarily mean ya don't experience it every day..and just don't call it the same thing..that other folks with little difficulty with social cognition/cognitive empathy have..every day in their life...

but that don't mean they are right or ya are wrong...

it just means ya speak a different language of emotion..and connection ..to the power and essence of all
tHere
IS
!

But here's the other thing..from personal experience in one lifetime..

i have been in a state of existence..where i did not experience this all encompassing power and energy that is the essence of all things...

IN FACT FOR OVER 60 MONTHS...

SO I KNOW FOR SURE..FOR AT LEAST ME...

IT IS POSSIBLE TO NOT EXPERIENCE THIS ALL ENCOMPASSING POWER AND ENERGY THAT IS THE ESSENCE OF THINGS...

WHICH AT LEAST FOR ME..WAS THE WORST THING..I COULD IMAGINE..

The thought that some folks may never experience this all encompassing power and energy that is the essence of all things..

OTHERWISE KNOWN AS GOD..THE CHI..ALLAH..THE DAO..CHRIST ENERGY..GREAT SPIRIT..THE QI..OR WHATEVER THE f**k ANYONE WANTS TO USE AS A VEHICLE OR VESSEL OF LANGUAGE TO HOUSE THE TRUTH AND THE LIGHT THAT IS THIS TRUE REALITY...

IS SIMPLY HORRIFYING TO ME..

AS I UNDERSTAND THAT TO BE.

TRUE
HUMAN
HELL..

The place i was ..looking through a window of a place
i could not possibly visit..

Until i was capable of once again..
experiencing the all encompassing power and energy of the essence of all that is..

otherwise known
as
GOD

I have no idea if someone who has never experienced IT can experience IT..
as far as i know 'GOD' aint' fair in one life...

BUT..if i could lose it for over 5 years..
and GAIN IT BACK..

i suppose it is possible..
and since i didn't like hell very much..the true human hell..

of being separated from the TRUE REALITY..OF THIS POWER AND ENERGY..OF THE ESSENCE OF ALL THAT IS..

i try really hard to
SPARK
SOMETHING
IN POTENTIALLY AT
LEAST ONE PERSON ON THIS WEBSITE...

THAT ONE PERSON..
MAKES ALL THESE WORDS..
WORTHWHILE..

AS
AGAIN
I KNOW TOO..
WHAT IT IS LIKE
TO LIVE IN
HUMAN
HELL.

THE ABYSS...
NOT THE BLISS....

THAT CAN BE THE HEAVEN
NOW!
OF THIS THING DESCRIBED
AS THE POWER AND ESSENCE
OF ALL THAT IS...

OTHERWISE
KNOWN
AS
GOD!

WHAT TO DO .. WHAT TO DO...

Well for one thing..
it couldn't hurt..
to exercise the social cognition..
part of the brain..
That is truly intelligence too..
along with physical intelligence (movement)
and existential intelligence...

THE STUFF I AM TALKING ABOUT
NOW..
THANKS FOR YOUR TIME...

AND
GOOD
LUCK..


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zer0netgain
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28 Jan 2014, 9:14 am

People with AS operate very rationally and logically.

Issues of faith are not necessarily logical.

So, people with AS need a REASON to believe in what can't be absolutely proven.

I was raised Catholic. It was stale and meaningless, so I drifted away.

In time I went back to the Christian faith.

God will give proof of His existence, but only if you first act on faith. The proof is frequently unique to the individual, and not something you can measure in a laboratory.

I explained it to someone via the rule of probability.

If you flip a fair coin, you have a 50/50 chance of it coming up heads. Flip it twice and you have a 1 in 4 chance of it being heads both times. Flip it 20 times and the odds of it always coming up heads is 1 in 1,048,576.

Now, it is mathematically possible that a fair coin could do just this, but by this point, it is logical that there is another factor influencing the outcome because the odds are just too long to believe the outcome is the product of pure chance.

God provides enough proof to the individual that believing that all of the "proofs" are just a string of coincidences is too improbable to be taken more seriously than the possibility of some "force" influencing events around the individual.

In any case, this was a CHOICE on my part, not brain washing or ignoring reality. I've seen "experts" double-back and change their story enough times to know that they don't often know what they are talking about. I also know the world is a lot more complex and operates by rules we have no clue about yet...which is why our scientific understanding keeps changing. Why put your "faith" in something that's still trying to figure it all out?



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28 Jan 2014, 9:51 am

zer0netgain wrote:
People with AS operate very rationally and logically.

If you flip a fair coin, you have a 50/50 chance of it coming up heads. Flip it twice and you have a 1 in 4 chance of it being heads both times. Flip it 20 times and the odds of it always coming up heads is 1 in 1,048,576.

Now, it is mathematically possible that a fair coin could do just this, but by this point, it is logical that there is another factor influencing the outcome because the odds are just too long to believe the outcome is the product of pure chance.



This reminds me of a joke a statistics professor would tell to his class.

He would ask the class, "If I flip a coin twenty times, and get heads those twenty times, then what are the odds I will get a head on the twenty-first flip?"

The class would compute the probability and report the very low conditional odds.

Then he would say, "I am not betting against that coin". :)



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28 Jan 2014, 10:21 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
zer0netgain wrote:
People with AS operate very rationally and logically.

If you flip a fair coin, you have a 50/50 chance of it coming up heads. Flip it twice and you have a 1 in 4 chance of it being heads both times. Flip it 20 times and the odds of it always coming up heads is 1 in 1,048,576.

Now, it is mathematically possible that a fair coin could do just this, but by this point, it is logical that there is another factor influencing the outcome because the odds are just too long to believe the outcome is the product of pure chance.



This reminds me of a joke a statistics professor would tell to his class.

He would ask the class, "If I flip a coin twenty times, and get heads those twenty times, then what are the odds I will get a head on the twenty-first flip?"

The class would compute the probability and report the very low conditional odds.

Then he would say, "I am not betting against that coin". :)


Is it a joke because the probability of getting a head on the next flip is actually 50:50 but the students are calculating the odds of getting 21 flips in a row all heads?


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28 Jan 2014, 10:29 am

zer0netgain wrote:
God provides enough proof to the individual that believing that all of the "proofs" are just a string of coincidences is too improbable to be taken more seriously than the possibility of some "force" influencing events around the individual.


Personally I've not seen ANY individual proofs for the existence of a Christian god, so have no "coincidences" to string together to rationalize as being some sort of overwhelming proof. On the other hand I see lots of individual proofs from the scientific method and our understanding of the universe, so I'll stick with science instead. Science may not have the complete picture yet but it is slowly but surely heading in that direction. Sooner or later the physics will be discovered that triggered the existence of the universe plus a detailed understanding of its nature and workings. Similarly evolution has shown the biblical creation of Adam and Eve to be mere mythology; so again I'll stick with science. I go where the evidence points, not where whimsy takes me.


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28 Jan 2014, 10:33 am

TallyMan wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
zer0netgain wrote:
People with AS operate very rationally and logically.

If you flip a fair coin, you have a 50/50 chance of it coming up heads. Flip it twice and you have a 1 in 4 chance of it being heads both times. Flip it 20 times and the odds of it always coming up heads is 1 in 1,048,576.

Now, it is mathematically possible that a fair coin could do just this, but by this point, it is logical that there is another factor influencing the outcome because the odds are just too long to believe the outcome is the product of pure chance.



This reminds me of a joke a statistics professor would tell to his class.

He would ask the class, "If I flip a coin twenty times, and get heads those twenty times, then what are the odds I will get a head on the twenty-first flip?"

The class would compute the probability and report the very low conditional odds.

Then he would say, "I am not betting against that coin". :)


Is it a joke because the probability of getting a head on the next flip is actually 50:50 but the students are calculating the odds of getting 21 flips in a row all heads?


Apparently, I did not tell it right. :x

The joke is that if the coin can defy the odds to such a degree, then something is not right. The flipper is cheating, or the coin has heads on both sides, or something. And thus, despite the odds being tremendously in favor of a tails coming up on the 21st flip - that is what the probability calculations will show - the professor jokes that he is not going to bet on those odds.

Thus, human intuition overrules mathematics.

Note: In "conditional probability theory" the odds are not 50/50 on the 21st flip. The odds are based on the condition of 20 prior "heads" flips, thus greatly increasing the odds of a "tails" outcome.



Last edited by LoveNotHate on 28 Jan 2014, 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

aghogday
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28 Jan 2014, 10:38 am

zer0netgain wrote:
People with AS operate very rationally and logically.

Issues of faith are not necessarily logical.

So, people with AS need a REASON to believe in what can't be absolutely proven.

I was raised Catholic. It was stale and meaningless, so I drifted away.

In time I went back to the Christian faith.

God will give proof of His existence, but only if you first act on faith. The proof is frequently unique to the individual, and not something you can measure in a laboratory.

I explained it to someone via the rule of probability.

If you flip a fair coin, you have a 50/50 chance of it coming up heads. Flip it twice and you have a 1 in 4 chance of it being heads both times. Flip it 20 times and the odds of it always coming up heads is 1 in 1,048,576.

Now, it is mathematically possible that a fair coin could do just this, but by this point, it is logical that there is another factor influencing the outcome because the odds are just too long to believe the outcome is the product of pure chance.

God provides enough proof to the individual that believing that all of the "proofs" are just a string of coincidences is too improbable to be taken more seriously than the possibility of some "force" influencing events around the individual.

In any case, this was a CHOICE on my part, not brain washing or ignoring reality. I've seen "experts" double-back and change their story enough times to know that they don't often know what they are talking about. I also know the world is a lot more complex and operates by rules we have no clue about yet...which is why our scientific understanding keeps changing. Why put your "faith" in something that's still trying to figure it all out?


This is true for me...

While.. i experienced what i understand to be GOD NOW..
When i did not have the analytical ability to describe what GOD IS
in words..
There was no word for me
to describe
GOD
NOW tHere IS
but moreover it is
because i have overcome
my difficulties with Autism...

Per Cognitive Empathy..

In understanding the connection of words
and the essence
that
IS

But yes i did have to have my own analytical proofs..
to make IT to that point..

And the evidence i got was overwhelming..

and NOW
continues to
SNOWBALL
IN TOTAL AFFECT
AND EFFECT...

IT IS SIMPLY LIKE
AN EVOLUTION
OF FULLER
INTELLIGENCE..

That nah..
science ain't got a friggin
idea at this..
point .. in how to measure..

per how the full human brain works..

Haha..they don't even know
how antidepressants..

work
to make
folks
feel better...


Yes .. for all practical intents and purposes..

The science of MIND
the most important science of ALL
in TRUE EFFECT
AND AFFECT..

AIN'T EVEN DEVELOPED A PROPER LANGUAGE YET...

SO YAH..

IT'S STILL A BABY...

I'LL TAKE tHE SHORTCUT
AND GET
tHere Now..

I ain't waiting for..
the dinosaur
of science..

or the funding of several thousand years...

to get
tHere...

i'd rather live in bliss now..
After ALL
IT'S
FREE!

FOR THOSE WHO
DISCERN AND LIVE
IT!


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28 Jan 2014, 10:44 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
zer0netgain wrote:
People with AS operate very rationally and logically.

If you flip a fair coin, you have a 50/50 chance of it coming up heads. Flip it twice and you have a 1 in 4 chance of it being heads both times. Flip it 20 times and the odds of it always coming up heads is 1 in 1,048,576.

Now, it is mathematically possible that a fair coin could do just this, but by this point, it is logical that there is another factor influencing the outcome because the odds are just too long to believe the outcome is the product of pure chance.



This reminds me of a joke a statistics professor would tell to his class.

He would ask the class, "If I flip a coin twenty times, and get heads those twenty times, then what are the odds I will get a head on the twenty-first flip?"

The class would compute the probability and report the very low conditional odds.

Then he would say, "I am not betting against that coin". :)


Is it a joke because the probability of getting a head on the next flip is actually 50:50 but the students are calculating the odds of getting 21 flips in a row all heads?


Apparently, I did not tell it right. :x

The joke is that if the coin can defy the odds to such a degree, then something is not right. The flipper is cheating, or the coin has heads on both sides, or something. And thus, despite the odds being tremendously in favor of a tails coming up on the 21st flip - that is what the probability calculations will show - the professor jokes that he is not going to bet on those odds.

Thus, human intuition overrules mathematics.

Note: In "conditional probability theory" the odds are not 50/50 on the 21st flip. The odds are based on the condition of 20 prior "heads" flips, thus greatly increasing the odds of a "tails" outcome.

8O Bayesian Probability vs. The Gambler's Fallacy! Evil statistics professor is evil!


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28 Jan 2014, 10:45 am

An extremely logical brain can make belief in a higher power difficult.



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28 Jan 2014, 10:52 am

TallyMan wrote:
zer0netgain wrote:
God provides enough proof to the individual that believing that all of the "proofs" are just a string of coincidences is too improbable to be taken more seriously than the possibility of some "force" influencing events around the individual.


Personally I've not seen ANY individual proofs for the existence of a Christian god, so have no "coincidences" to string together to rationalize as being some sort of overwhelming proof. On the other hand I see lots of individual proofs from the scientific method and our understanding of the universe, so I'll stick with science instead. Science may not have the complete picture yet but it is slowly but surely heading in that direction. Sooner or later the physics will be discovered that triggered the existence of the universe plus a detailed understanding of its nature and workings. Similarly evolution has shown the biblical creation of Adam and Eve to be mere mythology; so again I'll stick with science. I go where the evidence points, not where whimsy takes me.


Well..for a long time i did not either.
and was right there with ya...

But now i do..

that makes the difference...

Synchronicity..

IS REAL

FOR THOSE WHO DISCERN IT..

for those who do noT .. IT DOES NOT EXIST...

AND YES..!

FOR THOSE WHO DISCERN IT..

AND EXPERIENCE IT!

SYNCHRONICITY..

IS THE 'LANGUAGE' OF 'GOD'!

MEDITATION..TAI CHI..AND ALL OF THAT..

IS our LANGUAGE..

to 'LOVE' 'GOD'..

SOME FOLKS EXPERIENCE ONE PART OF THE LANGUAGE..

SOME FOLKS EXPERIENCE BOTH..

AND SOME FOLKS

MOST SADLY

in my own opinion...

EXPERIENCE
NONE...

GLAD YOU EXPERIENCE
ONE
IT'S BETTER
THAN
NONE

And if you take anything i say as serious..

i suggest ya read the 'Twelfth Insight'

by James Redfield..

He expresses this much better than i can..
as a person on the autism spectrum...

I aint' good at telling it in story form..

like he is..

Makes more sense that way...
i think..for the so called 'herd'....


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