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Did Jesus really exist?
Yes 74%  74%  [ 31 ]
No 26%  26%  [ 11 ]
Total votes : 42

aghogday
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10 Feb 2014, 11:29 am

MCalavera wrote:
If they are not found in any of the relevant texts, then the evidence is lacking and this theologian is spreading a lie. I don't care if it's advertising or not. If it's not true what he's saying, then it's not true.

And many scholars well-read in these subjects strongly disagree with him, so no point in appealing to his authority when his is contested by many far greater than him.


Dude again..an educated opinion is not a lie..

It is just opinion..

No one here was there..

So all of this is just..

educated opinion...

There is no way in hell..

this guy would even have his position..
at Oxford if he was spreading PUBLIC lies..seriously
now really isn't that just .. common sense...

It might be clear if you actually watched the video..
but i do not want to suggest you do something...ya do not want to do...

But until then..ya really cannot provide a fully educated opinion..on anything Dr. Beckford says..
in the actual documentary...

i watched it..
so i can.

Anyway the bottom line here..is as much as folks pooh pooh..the importance and significance of the house of myths..
to vehicle and vessel universal truths through the history and prehistory of mankind..

There wasn't any friggin information highway back in those days..
and easily available and affordable broad band access..

and lots and lots and lots of folks were illiterate..
therefore

and thereby

the historical and prehistorical..
relevance..
and actually REAL LIFE requirement..

of the vehicle and vessel that the house of myths
provide..
to keep universal truths..going
for greater public consumption..

and real life results..
to keep the friggin human race going....

AND Again..my writing style..in part to do that here...

On the autism spectrum there is great difficulty with connecting
language and emotion..

therefore..many folks do not consider emotion..all that important..
in reality..when in actuality..

it is an extremely important part of how the mind properly functions..
in everyday life..to form memories..and execute actions..
in everyday life...

A major reason for executive functioning difficulties for autistic folks..

Is the disconnections of language and emotion...

IN my lifelong adaptation..to be a more fully functioning human being..

My greatest adaption so far..is MORE FULLY connecting emotion with language..

and i am now an extreme extrovert in real life instead of an extreme introvert..

at least in part .. specific .. to my SUCCESSFUL language and emotion adaptation..through my new style of communication..

AND YES..EVEN THE PROFESSIONAL PSYCHIATRISTS AND OTHER RELATED THERAPISTS..

AGREE MY METHOD HAS BEEN EXTREMELY SUCCESSFUL IN GAINING
THIS ADAPTATION..

BUT..I TAKE IT VERY SERIOUSLY ..

AND THIS BELIEVE IT OR NOT..IS ALSO PART OF MY ONGOING THERAPY..

TO BE A FRIGGIN FULL HUMAN BEING..

FOR THE FRIGGIN FIRST TIME..
IN MY WHOLE LIFE..

and guess what it is outstanding ..and great..

i could not imagine anything better than being a real life extrovert as
opposed to
introvert..
hell as a social animal...
anthropologically..sociologically..psychologically.. and biologically speaking....
OFcourse AND ON COURSE again..
in only my fuller NOW..educated opinion...

EMOTIONS connected with LANGUAGE
IS WHAT MAKES
THIS WHOLE DAM
THING WORK..
BEING A HUMAN BEING
THAT IS..again..in ONLY my more fully educated opinion....
now.

COMIC BOOKS .. Star Trek..Star Wars..X men..AND the MYTHS IN RELIGION..
SERVE THE SAME BASIC PURPOSE..
TO use a metaphor here..
that stereotypically
someone might relate to....
THEY SPREAD UNIVERSAL TRUTHS..
THAT'S THE BOTTOM LINE..
WHATEVER METHOD IS USED FOR EMOTION..
CONNECTED WITH LANGUAGE..
FOR THE MOST EFFECTIVE COMMUNICATION...
POSSIBLE..
IT IS WHY HUMAN BEINGS..in large part...
THRIVE...EFFECTIVE social-emotional COMMUNICATION...

SO BASICALLY for all BASIC practical intents and purposes...

SUPERMAN..yes the comic book hero..SUPERMAN.. IS THE SAME dude AS JESUS

And while this really isn't the time or place to expound on it and explore it.

The intelligence of movement is every bit as important..to success as a fully functioning
human being..as any other type of modern measured intelligence..
in IQ tests...

Another type of intelligence..often pooh poohed..by some of the autistic folks here as not that important..

PE otherwise known as physical education..

And oh my GOD..that is my fully educated speciality..and real life decades experience speciality..in work and play..that i don't even attempt to convince people of on this
site so far..i cannot even convince many of the REAL LIFE.. professionals on my insights on physical education yet...
but i seriously think they
are correct 2..i think out of the box in PE..like
our ancestors did 2....
I DO NOT WALK and never run..IN STRAIGHT LINES..ON SIDEWALKS..
OR TREADMILLS..or even elliptical machines...
Common sense..again..anthropological common sense...
look to nature..is most of my philosophy..
the answers most often..
do not change..
and the secrets are spiraling..flying..
like a hawk..in the sky around the sun..
'right' before our eyes....
believe it
or
not.


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MCalavera
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10 Feb 2014, 7:13 pm

An opinion that's clearly wrong. As to why he is allowed to teach false information (if he is doing that at Oxford), it may have to do with the fact that he is just a theologian.



aghogday
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10 Feb 2014, 9:18 pm

MCalavera wrote:
An opinion that's clearly wrong. As to why he is allowed to teach false information (if he is doing that at Oxford), it may have to do with the fact that he is just a theologian.


Well..of course this isn't part of his official duties at Oxford..

He is quite controversial in the religious community..in the UK..

And he provides documentaries..on the public television network Channel 4 there..
and for the BBC...

And again..it is an opinion piece..like an OP-ED..

Not a formal documentary..in any sense of collegiate requirement.

And yes using that level of requirement it would not be appropriate for him to use this opinionated style..

But that's what it is..

Opinion.

And his main point anyway..is that the teachings of Jesus are important..for real life affect and effect..

The myth as stated before by me..and agreed upon by Mr. Beckford..and many other
scholarly folks..is it's just the housing that carries the vehicle or vessel of the message..
per the English Language or whatever symbolic method of communication...that allows humans to communicate
Universal truths of human nature..GOD or whatever someone wants to call helpful hints ..

to just survive..

That what's important..

to survive..

We can candidly discuss differences of opinions.

but at the end of the day..

surviving is all that counts..at least for NOW..unless a person does not
want to survive..

been there .. done..both counts...

But yes i can most definitely attribute at least part of my survival...

to the historic teachings of the man Jesus Christ..the myth parts did me
absolutely no good.

All i'm concerned about is now..
not some fairy tale of yesterday..or tomorrow..

But if it were not for the myths..
Highly unlikely the teachings would have made it
intact as much as was remaining...
in the early 1970's....in the US.

Now it does not really matter..the information technology highway..
houses all the secrets of success in life imaginable..

Wading through the BS is the hard part..

And i can understand your personal need to set those boundaries..
That is something we all MUST DO in my opinion..to some degree.

But i'm no longer that nit picky..perfection was my biggest downfall in life..
i look at the big picture now..instead of drowning in details..that part almost seriously
killed me per deleterious documented health effects..

But i am not suggesting you need to do that..

We all must find what works for only us..in my opinion2...


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11 Feb 2014, 3:38 am

ArrantPariah wrote:
I came across a really fascinating lecture

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwUZOZN-9dc[/youtube]

where Dr. Richard Carrier offers a very persuasive argument that Jesus never really existed.

Does anyone care to rebut any of his points? Or, to agree with his points?

I'm forcing a Yes/No vote: no agnosticism allowed. Examine the evidence and decide. :shameonyou:

Having watched the lecture, I am now pretty much convinced that Jesus never really existed at all: that he was completely made up.

Any other opinions?


I don't even need to watch the video. Of course he didn't exist. There is no historical record of him existing outside of the bible, and the bible has zero credibility. Case closed.



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11 Feb 2014, 3:38 am

ArrantPariah wrote:
I came across a really fascinating lecture

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwUZOZN-9dc[/youtube]

where Dr. Richard Carrier offers a very persuasive argument that Jesus never really existed.

Does anyone care to rebut any of his points? Or, to agree with his points?

I'm forcing a Yes/No vote: no agnosticism allowed. Examine the evidence and decide. :shameonyou:

Having watched the lecture, I am now pretty much convinced that Jesus never really existed at all: that he was completely made up.

Any other opinions?


I don't even need to watch the video. Of course he didn't exist. There is no historical record of him existing outside of the bible, and the bible has zero credibility. Case closed.



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11 Feb 2014, 3:40 am

Moviefan2k4 wrote:
Jesus most definitely walked this Earth; many historical accounts of first-century Israel describe His ministry, and that's without adding the text of the New Testament.


Source? I have never heard of any of these accounts.



Max000
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11 Feb 2014, 4:09 am

Moviefan2k4 wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
Moviefan2k4 wrote:
Jesus most definitely walked this Earth; many historical accounts of first-century Israel describe His ministry, and that's without adding the text of the New Testament.


Examples please.

And this is coming from someone who believes Jesus' existence is more likely than his non-existence.

I think both strong historicists and strong mythicists are being unreasonable. The best approach is agnosticism.
Two commonly-cited sources are the writings of Josephus and Tacitus, but anti-theists often say those are forgeries because they hate anything that backs up Biblical claims.



You said "many historical accounts" with such conviction, and yet the best you can come up with are from two people who were born after Jesus's alleged crucifixion. We need documentation that he actually lived. Not accounts from people who were born after the fact and heard the stories about Jesus. Thats just hearsay evidence. It wouldn't stand up in any modern court.



Last edited by Max000 on 11 Feb 2014, 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

aghogday
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11 Feb 2014, 10:16 am

Max000 wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
I came across a really fascinating lecture

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwUZOZN-9dc[/youtube]

where Dr. Richard Carrier offers a very persuasive argument that Jesus never really existed.

Does anyone care to rebut any of his points? Or, to agree with his points?

I'm forcing a Yes/No vote: no agnosticism allowed. Examine the evidence and decide. :shameonyou:

Having watched the lecture, I am now pretty much convinced that Jesus never really existed at all: that he was completely made up.

Any other opinions?


I don't even need to watch the video. Of course he didn't exist. There is no historical record of him existing outside of the bible, and the bible has zero credibility. Case closed.


Well dude...unless you have greater credentials than the majority of scholars that agree that the man Jesus existed..your argument is no more believable than an argument that Socrates did not exist...

There is no greater evidence that Socrates existed as far as first hand accounts go...

And yes most scholars agree that both Jesus and Socrates existed...

Now was the myth real..of course not..myths are not meant to be real...

Myths like all other forms of metaphor..are just vehicles and vessels of human language to carry the
deeper meanings in life...

But of course that is the difficulty that many autistic folks have..understanding metaphors..of deeper human meanings as how that relates to
the demonstration of human empathy...

Ergo some difficulties in understanding the value of religion and deeper meanings of demonstrated empathy in general..among SOME autistic folks....

Even John Nash the individual potentially diagnosable with either schizophrenia/autism ..who readily admitted his difficulties with emotion and the demonstration of cognitive empathy in later years...understood that his limitations in these human abilities..reduced the reliability of his 'Game Theory'...

He had all the players...

But did not understand their 'heart's'...

That's a metaphor by the way..

If need be.. i'll explain it to ya.....

But don't take my word for it...per the historical verity of the existence of the man Jesus....

The resources indicate the same..even in rational wiki..for your general purview.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_f ... sus_Christ


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Max000
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11 Feb 2014, 8:53 pm

aghogday wrote:
Max000 wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
I came across a really fascinating lecture

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwUZOZN-9dc[/youtube]

where Dr. Richard Carrier offers a very persuasive argument that Jesus never really existed.

Does anyone care to rebut any of his points? Or, to agree with his points?

I'm forcing a Yes/No vote: no agnosticism allowed. Examine the evidence and decide. :shameonyou:

Having watched the lecture, I am now pretty much convinced that Jesus never really existed at all: that he was completely made up.

Any other opinions?


I don't even need to watch the video. Of course he didn't exist. There is no historical record of him existing outside of the bible, and the bible has zero credibility. Case closed.


Well dude...unless you have greater credentials than the majority of scholars that agree that the man Jesus existed..your argument is no more believable than an argument that Socrates did not exist...

There is no greater evidence that Socrates existed as far as first hand accounts go...


Wrong. Socrates was known and written about by other historically known people, who knew him. No historical person out side of the bible, knew about Jesus, until after his supposed life and death.

Jesus has no direct connection to history. Socrates does. Big difference.



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11 Feb 2014, 9:26 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
If you look at Galatians, Paul (or whoever the real writer was, but I suspect Paul) isn't trying to make any sort of theological assertions regarding James, Peter etc. It is more along the lines of "had a great trip. Happened to see James and Peter when I was in Jerusalem." Since he isn't grinding a theological ax, it is more believable that he did see James and Peter, compared to anything recorded in the Gospels, for example.


Paul never met Jesus while he was alive so Paul just has to accept the words of the apostles that this is anyone's brother. If Christ isn't divine then the apostles are probably liars and con men.

It's like saying, I met Bernie Madoff while I was in Jerusalem and he introduced me to a friend of the analyst who had just doubled my money. Hallelujah! If the witness statements about miracles are incorrect then these are very unreliable and possibly unsavory narrators.

Ever met a street con man? I have. They are very good at bs. They exist.



aghogday
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11 Feb 2014, 10:45 pm

Max000 wrote:
aghogday wrote:
Max000 wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
I came across a really fascinating lecture

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwUZOZN-9dc[/youtube]

where Dr. Richard Carrier offers a very persuasive argument that Jesus never really existed.

Does anyone care to rebut any of his points? Or, to agree with his points?

I'm forcing a Yes/No vote: no agnosticism allowed. Examine the evidence and decide. :shameonyou:

Having watched the lecture, I am now pretty much convinced that Jesus never really existed at all: that he was completely made up.

Any other opinions?


I don't even need to watch the video. Of course he didn't exist. There is no historical record of him existing outside of the bible, and the bible has zero credibility. Case closed.


Well dude...unless you have greater credentials than the majority of scholars that agree that the man Jesus existed..your argument is no more believable than an argument that Socrates did not exist...

There is no greater evidence that Socrates existed as far as first hand accounts go...


Wrong. Socrates was known and written about by other historically known people, who knew him. No historical person out side of the bible, knew about Jesus, until after his supposed life and death.

Jesus has no direct connection to history. Socrates does. Big difference.


Ever hear of the 'Socratic problem'...there is no physical evidence that Socrates wrote anything..

Therefore..the same issue for historical debate on whether or not he even existed...
And per all scholarly references..
both men are widely accepted as to have existed among scholars..
so per that standard..
you are incorrect..

your opinion is in the minority..of all naysayers...


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aghogday
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11 Feb 2014, 10:51 pm

simon_says wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
If you look at Galatians, Paul (or whoever the real writer was, but I suspect Paul) isn't trying to make any sort of theological assertions regarding James, Peter etc. It is more along the lines of "had a great trip. Happened to see James and Peter when I was in Jerusalem." Since he isn't grinding a theological ax, it is more believable that he did see James and Peter, compared to anything recorded in the Gospels, for example.


Paul never met Jesus while he was alive so Paul just has to accept the words of the apostles that this is anyone's brother. If Christ isn't divine then the apostles are probably liars and con men.

It's like saying, I met Bernie Madoff while I was in Jerusalem and he introduced me to a friend of the analyst who had just doubled my money. Hallelujah! If the witness statements about miracles are incorrect then these are very unreliable and possibly unsavory narrators.

Ever met a street con man? I have. They are very good at bs. They exist.


Not likely ..oral tradition is full of myth..
that has little specifically to do with lies..or con men..
it's a well known anthropological tool..
of almost all cultures...
including our modern day..
US..
TOO many examples to list here..
by far..gossip is reality..for most folks..
but not usually a lie..as that is most often
frowned upon..and not appropriate or acceptable...

in any civilized culture..particularly with religion..
now politics..that can be another issue..:)


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11 Feb 2014, 11:33 pm

People lie about every subject under the sun. Did Joe Smith lie about his scrying stones, North American mythology and all the rest? Or was it just an innocent myth? He lied his a** off and the only reason we can be more certain about his character defects than Christ's and the apostles' potential defects is that there are more records in Smith's near modern world.

People are people in every age.



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11 Feb 2014, 11:47 pm

simon_says wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
If you look at Galatians, Paul (or whoever the real writer was, but I suspect Paul) isn't trying to make any sort of theological assertions regarding James, Peter etc. It is more along the lines of "had a great trip. Happened to see James and Peter when I was in Jerusalem." Since he isn't grinding a theological ax, it is more believable that he did see James and Peter, compared to anything recorded in the Gospels, for example.


Paul never met Jesus while he was alive so Paul just has to accept the words of the apostles that this is anyone's brother. If Christ isn't divine then the apostles are probably liars and con men.

It's like saying, I met Bernie Madoff while I was in Jerusalem and he introduced me to a friend of the analyst who had just doubled my money. Hallelujah! If the witness statements about miracles are incorrect then these are very unreliable and possibly unsavory narrators.

Ever met a street con man? I have. They are very good at bs. They exist.


And yet, Christ's disciples died martyr's deaths - an odd thing to do if what your perpetrating is a con. And yes, Joseph Smith had also died at the hands of his opponents - trying to get out a window, when he fell to his death. Very different from Christ's followers who gave up their lives rather than recant their faith.


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12 Feb 2014, 12:01 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
simon_says wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
If you look at Galatians, Paul (or whoever the real writer was, but I suspect Paul) isn't trying to make any sort of theological assertions regarding James, Peter etc. It is more along the lines of "had a great trip. Happened to see James and Peter when I was in Jerusalem." Since he isn't grinding a theological ax, it is more believable that he did see James and Peter, compared to anything recorded in the Gospels, for example.


Paul never met Jesus while he was alive so Paul just has to accept the words of the apostles that this is anyone's brother. If Christ isn't divine then the apostles are probably liars and con men.

It's like saying, I met Bernie Madoff while I was in Jerusalem and he introduced me to a friend of the analyst who had just doubled my money. Hallelujah! If the witness statements about miracles are incorrect then these are very unreliable and possibly unsavory narrators.

Ever met a street con man? I have. They are very good at bs. They exist.


And yet, Christ's disciples died martyr's deaths - an odd thing to do if what your perpetrating is a con. And yes, Joseph Smith had also died at the hands of his opponents - trying to get out a window, when he fell to his death. Very different from Christ's followers who gave up their lives rather than recant their faith.


And yet Bernie Madoff made a profit for all of his investors. It's right there in the reports he gave them.

Who is to say who died, who recanted, who fled and who retired and died quietly in their sleep when the only account comes from the promulgators of the myth itself. The many authors are writing it because they are invested in it's success for one reason or another. No story that said otherwise would make it into the assembled bible, let alone survive a later true believer's camp fire.

As a non believer I believe there are liars at the root of the story. There is no limit to the self-serving claims they could generate.



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12 Feb 2014, 12:04 am

simon_says wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
simon_says wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
If you look at Galatians, Paul (or whoever the real writer was, but I suspect Paul) isn't trying to make any sort of theological assertions regarding James, Peter etc. It is more along the lines of "had a great trip. Happened to see James and Peter when I was in Jerusalem." Since he isn't grinding a theological ax, it is more believable that he did see James and Peter, compared to anything recorded in the Gospels, for example.


Paul never met Jesus while he was alive so Paul just has to accept the words of the apostles that this is anyone's brother. If Christ isn't divine then the apostles are probably liars and con men.

It's like saying, I met Bernie Madoff while I was in Jerusalem and he introduced me to a friend of the analyst who had just doubled my money. Hallelujah! If the witness statements about miracles are incorrect then these are very unreliable and possibly unsavory narrators.

Ever met a street con man? I have. They are very good at bs. They exist.


And yet, Christ's disciples died martyr's deaths - an odd thing to do if what your perpetrating is a con. And yes, Joseph Smith had also died at the hands of his opponents - trying to get out a window, when he fell to his death. Very different from Christ's followers who gave up their lives rather than recant their faith.


And yet Bernie Madoff made a profit for all of his investors. It's right there in the reports he gave them.

Who is to say who died, who recanted, who fled and who retired and died quietly in their sleep when the only account comes from the promulgators of the myth itself. The many authors are writing it because they are invested in it's success for one reason or another. No story that said otherwise would make it into the assembled bible, let alone survive a later true believer's camp fire.

As a non believer I believe there are liars at the root of the story. There is no limit to the self-serving claims they could generate.


Even to the point of dying agonizing deaths?


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