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Did Jesus really exist?
Yes 74%  74%  [ 31 ]
No 26%  26%  [ 11 ]
Total votes : 42

simon_says
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12 Feb 2014, 12:17 am

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Even to the point of dying agonizing deaths?


So claims the bible and church tradition. That doesnt make it true as I just explained. It's convenient for the story.

Also, their deaths don't really strike me as very credible. It's borderline miraculous that they all survived to meet martyrdom for Christ over many years. It's the 1st century. No illness? No trampled by a random horse? No infections? No cancer? Obviously in this tale the super being is preserving them for martyrdom to reinforce the power of the story. It's convenient for the new church. It's like the knights of the grail making their various poor efforts so that Galahad seems that much holier in the end. That doesn't make Galahad real or make him holy.



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12 Feb 2014, 1:19 am

simon_says wrote:
Quote:
Even to the point of dying agonizing deaths?


So claims the bible and church tradition. That doesnt make it true as I just explained. It's convenient for the story.

Also, their deaths don't really strike me as very credible. It's borderline miraculous that they all survived to meet martyrdom for Christ over many years. It's the 1st century. No illness? No trampled by a random horse? No infections? No cancer? Obviously in this tale the super being is preserving them for martyrdom to reinforce the power of the story. It's convenient for the new church. It's like the knights of the grail making their various poor efforts so that Galahad seems that much holier in the end. That doesn't make Galahad real or make him holy.


We know from Tacitus and Suetonius that the early church had been persecuted violently. Why would these disinterested Roman historians go along with such a colossal lie?


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simon_says
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12 Feb 2014, 1:36 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
simon_says wrote:
Quote:
Even to the point of dying agonizing deaths?


So claims the bible and church tradition. That doesnt make it true as I just explained. It's convenient for the story.

Also, their deaths don't really strike me as very credible. It's borderline miraculous that they all survived to meet martyrdom for Christ over many years. It's the 1st century. No illness? No trampled by a random horse? No infections? No cancer? Obviously in this tale the super being is preserving them for martyrdom to reinforce the power of the story. It's convenient for the new church. It's like the knights of the grail making their various poor efforts so that Galahad seems that much holier in the end. That doesn't make Galahad real or make him holy.


We know from Tacitus and Suetonius that the early church had been persecuted violently. Why would these disinterested Roman historians go along with such a colossal lie?


You've changed the point. We were discussing the stories of the martyrdom of all of the apostles in various parts of the world in the 1st century. As if that validated their sincerity. I just noted that you really don't know what happened to them. Most of it is written down long after and it served the interest of the church to have those stories end just so.

That Rome, Christians or periods of persecution existed is not in question. Christians who never met Jesus or the apostles even volunteered for martyrdom at times. THat's just kooky old faith. No different than Muslims who seek death for god today. That doesn't make Mohammed the prophet of god or Jesus his son. That's just people looking for cookies in the afterlife..



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12 Feb 2014, 1:45 am

simon_says wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
simon_says wrote:
Quote:
Even to the point of dying agonizing deaths?


So claims the bible and church tradition. That doesnt make it true as I just explained. It's convenient for the story.

Also, their deaths don't really strike me as very credible. It's borderline miraculous that they all survived to meet martyrdom for Christ over many years. It's the 1st century. No illness? No trampled by a random horse? No infections? No cancer? Obviously in this tale the super being is preserving them for martyrdom to reinforce the power of the story. It's convenient for the new church. It's like the knights of the grail making their various poor efforts so that Galahad seems that much holier in the end. That doesn't make Galahad real or make him holy.


We know from Tacitus and Suetonius that the early church had been persecuted violently. Why would these disinterested Roman historians go along with such a colossal lie?


You've changed the point. We were discussing the stories of the martyrdom of all of the apostles in various parts of the world in the 1st century. As if that validated their sincerity. I just noted that you really don't know what happened to them. Most of it is written down long after and it served the interest of the church to have those stories end just so.

That Rome, Christians or periods of persecution existed is not in question. Christians who never met Jesus or the apostles even volunteered for martyrdom at times. THat's just kooky old faith. No different than Muslims who seek death for god today. That doesn't make Mohammed the prophet of god or Jesus his son. That's just people looking for cookies in the afterlife..


Paul had been decapitated.
Peter had been crucified (allegedly upside down).
Thomas had been flayed.
Stephen had been stoned to death.
So yes, I know something about how the Apostles had died. I brought up the persecution mentioned by the Roman historians because it was during such periods of executions when the Apostles had died.
By the way, I have a degree in history, and my period of specialty had been the Roman period, which includes the history of the early church. I can tell you right now, while scholars make it a point not to claim divinity for Christ, not one legitimate historian ever doubted Christ's existence, or believed that Christ and his followers were insincere in their motives.


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simon_says
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12 Feb 2014, 1:58 am

Quote:
Paul had been decapitated.
Peter had been crucified (allegedly upside down).
Thomas had been flayed.
Stephen had been stoned to death.
So yes, I know something about how the Apostles had died. I brought up the persecution mentioned by the Roman historians because it was during such periods of executions when the Apostles had died.
By the way, I have a degree in history, and my period of specialty had been the Roman period, which includes the history of the early church. I can tell you right now, while scholars make it a point not to claim divinity for Christ, not one legitimate historian ever doubted Christ's existence, or believed that Christ and his followers were insincere in their motives.


You know what the church tells you about the death of the apostles. Often times first written down over a hundred years later. From my perspective that's not really knowing.

As for the historicity of Jesus, I have no idea. I haven't even followed it. I was just pointing out some faulty reasoning in an earlier post. If the apostles are liars then any additional information they later provide to non-witnesses doesn't really clarify anything.



DentArthurDent
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12 Feb 2014, 2:14 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
As a non believer I believe there are liars at the root of the story. There is no limit to the self-serving claims they could generate.


Even to the point of dying agonizing deaths?[/quote]

The trouble is whilst, say, Paul, believed in what he said, we do not know which of Pauls letters were by him, and even the ones that were authored by him, who can say that his non witness accounts are accurate. From what I understand many, if not most, theologians are of the opinion that many of his letters are forgeries, written by people with an agenda.

Forged authorship abounds in both Testaments, and those which are not, are often misrepresented, or have been mis-translated.

Personally, I tend to think that a radical preacher, with a moderate following, was persecuted and crucified by the Roman and Jewish Authorities. Any miracles and divine status, I put down to wishful thinking and manipulation of the story to suit certain prophecies.

And yes delusional people will hold true their beliefs even when faced with torture and death. After all one of the main tenets running throughout the bible and reaching its ultimate expression in the Passion, is the idea of redemptive suffering. What better way to ensure eternal life beside the lord than enduring a flaying in his name


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Kraichgauer
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12 Feb 2014, 3:10 am

simon_says wrote:
Quote:
Paul had been decapitated.
Peter had been crucified (allegedly upside down).
Thomas had been flayed.
Stephen had been stoned to death.
So yes, I know something about how the Apostles had died. I brought up the persecution mentioned by the Roman historians because it was during such periods of executions when the Apostles had died.
By the way, I have a degree in history, and my period of specialty had been the Roman period, which includes the history of the early church. I can tell you right now, while scholars make it a point not to claim divinity for Christ, not one legitimate historian ever doubted Christ's existence, or believed that Christ and his followers were insincere in their motives.


You know what the church tells you about the death of the apostles. Often times first written down over a hundred years later. From my perspective that's not really knowing.

As for the historicity of Jesus, I have no idea. I haven't even followed it. I was just pointing out some faulty reasoning in an earlier post. If the apostles are liars then any additional information they later provide to non-witnesses doesn't really clarify anything.


Just because the Gospels we have now had been written maybe a century or so later (and even that late of a date is disputed), it doesn't mean that there weren't earlier documents. And even so, why would oral tradition necessarily be suspect?


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12 Feb 2014, 3:11 am

DentArthurDent wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
As a non believer I believe there are liars at the root of the story. There is no limit to the self-serving claims they could generate.


Even to the point of dying agonizing deaths?


The trouble is whilst, say, Paul, believed in what he said, we do not know which of Pauls letters were by him, and even the ones that were authored by him, who can say that his non witness accounts are accurate. From what I understand many, if not most, theologians are of the opinion that many of his letters are forgeries, written by people with an agenda.

Forged authorship abounds in both Testaments, and those which are not, are often misrepresented, or have been mis-translated.

Personally, I tend to think that a radical preacher, with a moderate following, was persecuted and crucified by the Roman and Jewish Authorities. Any miracles and divine status, I put down to wishful thinking and manipulation of the story to suit certain prophecies.

And yes delusional people will hold true their beliefs even when faced with torture and death. After all one of the main tenets running throughout the bible and reaching its ultimate expression in the Passion, is the idea of redemptive suffering. What better way to ensure eternal life beside the lord than enduring a flaying in his name[/quote]

What historians consider Paul's letters to be forgeries? That's news to me.


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simon_says
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12 Feb 2014, 3:31 am

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Just because the Gospels we have now had been written maybe a century or so later (and even that late of a date is disputed), it doesn't mean that there weren't earlier documents. And even so, why would oral tradition necessarily be suspect?


Believe whatever you like. The bible says the bible is accurate doesn't work for me. Sprinkling some oral tradition on it doesn't really improve the taste.



Kraichgauer
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12 Feb 2014, 3:58 am

simon_says wrote:
Quote:
Just because the Gospels we have now had been written maybe a century or so later (and even that late of a date is disputed), it doesn't mean that there weren't earlier documents. And even so, why would oral tradition necessarily be suspect?


Believe whatever you like. The bible says the bible is accurate doesn't work for me. Sprinkling some oral tradition on it doesn't really improve the taste.


You have your opinion, and I have mine.


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12 Feb 2014, 5:43 am

Hey Mario did Jesus exist? [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NkbN0ezGf4[/youtube]


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babybird
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12 Feb 2014, 7:00 am

I had a dream last night that I was talking on the phone to Jesus.

When I woke up my heart was pounding and I was sweating. I was really scared.


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aghogday
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12 Feb 2014, 10:34 am

simon_says wrote:
People lie about every subject under the sun. Did Joe Smith lie about his scrying stones, North American mythology and all the rest? Or was it just an innocent myth? He lied his a** off and the only reason we can be more certain about his character defects than Christ's and the apostles' potential defects is that there are more records in Smith's near modern world.

People are people in every age.


Well..there is a a big difference..between a social lie..and a malicious lie..

There is a lot misanthropic intention given to the human race..on this website..

that is seriously not reflective of reality...

It is more reflective of preconceived notions..through individual perceptions of a life through the limitations of cognitive empathy...

People more often lie in real life..not to hurt the feelings of other folks..we are social animals we do not exist..
in totality of human existence..by making it a purpose in life to maliciously lie to other folks for mal-intent..

Granted there are a certain number of folks that are of the anti-social personality variety...

But one's lens is colored by one's personal experience..

And the stories of social abuse..perceived as such..when it's not even happening is documented on this website..thousands of times...

Seeing mal-intention in others when there is no real evidence for it..is common among Autistic folks..and yes i struggled with it too..

But i worked with tens of thousands of real live folks in real life..serving them ..helping them..and getting to know them in real life..
95 to 99 percent overall were honest..and loving folks...

But it's not just my opinion..humans are social animals..and social animals get along or they die..it is in most folks genes..
but not all...and certainly not on this website..overall..

Not an objective place..certainly to capture this type of overall human social data....for a general population sample group...

And the largest part of all..in my opinion..why there is such disgust here expressed about religion in general..and GOD..

For at least some part..it's just not inherently beneficial to many folks on this site..so there is no selfish reason to understand it..

Sad but true..as if this were not the case..there could be at least some more cognitive empathy..

to undertand the real documenTED benefits of even the POWER OF BELIEF..ALL UNTO ITSELF..AS A HUMAN ATTRIBUTE..AND TREASURE...
TO MAKE BETTER THINGS HAPPEN IN LIFE FOR REAL LIFE FOLKS...EVERY SECOND OF EVERY DAY..

AND THAT'S A FACT...BELIEF IS REAL ..BELIEF MAKES GREAT THINGS HAPPEN...

IT DON'T MATTER THE OBJECT OF THE BELIEF..

IT IS THE HUMAN ATTRIBUTE OF BELIEF AND POSITIVE THINKING..

ITSELF..that can make human beings an animal in bliss...like most other animals..

that never learn to hate..or learn all these illusory fears..about ill intention of others..when it does not even exist....

And that is a general statement...i am not aiming this at you as an individual..or any other specific individual here..i know nothing about you personally....

But just a quick example..i used to refer to folks on this site as friend..or friends..even when i disagreed with them...

and they saw malicious intent in it...

Why the hell would i like someone less...if i enjoyed a good argument with them...

And why the f**k as a human being..would i not see another live flesh and blood human being..as not a friend...

See what i mean ..preconceived notions...

i can call poets i disagree with friends all day and all night..but the difference is...

They have plenty of cognitive empathy..and look past superficial disagreements..as part of a normal human experience...

i adapted ...i have cognitive empathy..because i refused ..to stay in the dark..

Took five decades or so..but it worked..

i do even test as 11 on the AQ test now..instead of 44 or 45..
and 92 on the Aspie Quiz instead of 195...

i cured the empathic difficulties of autism..

And in effect..i am no longer disabled by it..in real life...

but i still have the beneficial parts..

and enjoy life now..
with twice as much brain..yes..the mechanical cognition part..
and the equally important part...
the social cognition part..for FULL HUMAN INTELLIGENCE..

And if i can do it..with my severely autistic mind..non-verbal and all of that as a child...

i really think..there is hope for MOST anyone..with epigenetics..and neuroplasitcity..

IF THEY JUST DON'T GIVE UP..
AND REALLY WANT TO BE A
FULL HUMAN INTELLIGENT BEING....
YES EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE..INCLUDED..
AS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF HUMAN INTELLIGENCE THERE IS

FOR ONE SIMPLE REASON...

overall SURVIVAL...

HUMANS ARE interdependent on each other...
Culture may provide the illusion to some folks they aren't.

but that's a pipe dream..at least..if one lives long enough..
to find that FULLY INTELLIGENT answer....


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Last edited by aghogday on 12 Feb 2014, 11:10 am, edited 2 times in total.

AspieOtaku
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12 Feb 2014, 10:37 am

babybird wrote:
I had a dream last night that I was talking on the phone to Jesus.

When I woke up my heart was pounding and I was sweating. I was really scared.
Jesus can be found hanging out in front of Home Depot offering to work on your roof!


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aghogday
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12 Feb 2014, 10:38 am

babybird wrote:
I had a dream last night that I was talking on the phone to Jesus.

When I woke up my heart was pounding and I was sweating. I was really scared.


Well..nothing really to be afraid of...i think..

He don't judge people..
as far as i know...all those
going to hell myths and all of that...
if ya break a rule or two or any of that....

The real Jesus dude..he ain't for that..kinda stuff..

He was probably just calling to see how ya were doing...:)
and hoping ya got a good night sleep..and all of that;)


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aghogday
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12 Feb 2014, 10:56 am

AspieOtaku wrote:
babybird wrote:
I had a dream last night that I was talking on the phone to Jesus.

When I woke up my heart was pounding and I was sweating. I was really scared.
Jesus can be found hanging out in front of Home Depot offering to work on your roof!


NO that's not possible..Jesus was a trained carpenter..

not a roofer..;)

That is if you are a fundamentalist

Atheist..

but if not .. perhaps..
he could do
both..:)


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