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Do you identify as having androgynous physical features?
I am biologically male, identify as having Asperger's Syndrome, and do. 8%  8%  [ 20 ]
I am biologically male, identify as having Asperger's Syndrome, and do. 10%  10%  [ 23 ]
I am biologically male, identify as having Asperger's Syndrome, and do not. 10%  10%  [ 23 ]
I am biologically male, identify as having Asperger's Syndrome, and do not. 11%  11%  [ 26 ]
I am biologically female, identify as having Asperger's Syndrome, and do. 12%  12%  [ 30 ]
I am biologically female, identify as having Asperger's Syndrome, and do. 14%  14%  [ 33 ]
I am biologically female, identify as having Asperger's Syndrome, and do not. 7%  7%  [ 17 ]
I am biologically female, identify as having Asperger's Syndrome, and do not. 7%  7%  [ 18 ]
I am biologically male, identify as having another Autism Spectrum Disorder, and do. 2%  2%  [ 5 ]
I am biologically male, identify as having another Autism Spectrum Disorder, and do. 2%  2%  [ 5 ]
I am biologically male, identify as having another Autism Spectrum Disorder, and do not. 1%  1%  [ 2 ]
I am biologically male, identify as having another Autism Spectrum Disorder, and do not. 1%  1%  [ 2 ]
I am biologically female, identify as having another Autism Spectrum Disorder, and do. 2%  2%  [ 5 ]
I am biologically female, identify as having another Autism Spectrum Disorder, and do. 2%  2%  [ 6 ]
I am biologically female, identify as having another Autism Spectrum Disorder, and do not. 3%  3%  [ 7 ]
I am biologically female, identify as having another Autism Spectrum Disorder, and do not. 3%  3%  [ 8 ]
Other, please comment. 2%  2%  [ 5 ]
Other, please comment. 3%  3%  [ 7 ]
Total votes : 242

crubs
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26 Jan 2014, 1:27 am

Girls are less attracted to highly masculine males while on the pill because it inhibits ovulation. The ovulation period is where females are most likely to be impregnated, so that's when it's in their biological interest to invest in the best genes available. However, when they're not ovulating, they prefer more investive males, who aren't necessarily as masculine.

However, the neanderthal-males tend to get all the first picks nonetheless, while more neotenous males such as aspies and orientals finish last... if at all...



886
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26 Jan 2014, 3:43 am

I'm very autistic and I'm not the most masculine person you'll ever meet, that's for damn sure. I never put much thought into how it relates to my physical appearence though, I'd have to say I fit the mold but the article itself is a bit confusing to understand in regards to the 4D 2D - either way, it's a great read, thank you for sharing.


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26 Jan 2014, 4:12 am

I'm biologically male, and while I look masculine for the most part, I've been told by a few people that my looks take after my mother more than they do after my father. As well, I've been told by a lot of people that I look "young" for my age, which may be a sign of some androgynous characteristics.



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26 Jan 2014, 4:54 pm

886 wrote:
I'm very autistic and I'm not the most masculine person you'll ever meet, that's for damn sure. I never put much thought into how it relates to my physical appearence though, I'd have to say I fit the mold but the article itself is a bit confusing to understand in regards to the 4D 2D - either way, it's a great read, thank you for sharing.


You are welcome..i had to read it a few times..to get all the details too...

Interestingly in the article the 2d/4d low digit ratio..that is presumed for so called lower functioning autistic males..that was suggested
by Cohen as such..since the year 2000..does not hold up in this research article..per an average or higher digit ratio for 'higher functioning' autistic males..but a lower one for 'higher functioning autistic females'...

However this research does not conflict too much..it seems.. with Cohen's previous theory on the extreme male brain theory..per lower 2d/4d ratio and 'lower functioning' autistics.. as his research too..determined that the ratio was higher among 'higher functioning' autistic folks.. per Asperger's Syndrome...

His study had a very small sample of females with Asperger's as the female pool of potential study subjects was low in the early 2000's..in the UK..it seems...

As females are much more difficult it seems... to accurately diagnose... but i think that is getting better..as clinicians..get more experience with 'higher functioning'..autistic females....

I think the most salient information ..coming..out of this research..is that masculine leaning traits are quite common among 'higher functioning' females on the autism spectrum..as well as 'lower functioning' females on the autism spectrum....

What is really interesting to me though..is the androgen language connection...

Andrew Whitehouse an Autism Researcher from Australia..determined in his general research that higher levels of umbilical cord testosterone..per human development..leads to difficulties with language among males...but actually protection of language among females...

This makes perfect sense to me..as often it seems that non-verbal learning disabilities..are present among 'higher functioning' females ons the spectrum..while they may have excellent verbal abilities..including public speaking....

And at the same time they may have much difficulty with simple math...

Now from what i see..in actual real life support groups for folks with Asperger's...there are math whizzes..who have a great difficulty in coherently expressing themselves..this fits me perfect in earlier life..and i still can get extremely excited when attempting to express myself..what comes out looks a little like cocktail speech..which often presents itself in pragmatic learning disorder..

A good example of this is the Scott Robertson (if i spelled the last name correctly) guy... that is one of the ASAN (Autistic Self Advocacy Network) leaders ....

He's extremely excitable when he speaks..and can really get off on some tangents..

Whereas the President of the Organization..Ari Neeman..is an extremely monotone and controlled speaker..who can express himself as coherently as a teacher in a lecture hall..but yes..boring with the monotone voice..and little to no emotion....or even humor...

The Robertson guy is always happy and smiling..never a dull moment with him...

And yes..this is like me when i get going...

Anyway..it's just easy to find them on youtube..is why i use them as examples..they do not mind at all being in the public eye..

And that is quite unusual for people on the spectrum..

But adaption is possible for anything ..almost..i truly believe ..anyway...:)

And while the last thing in the REAL world i would want..would be the Center of attention,...

I can present myself online..in a play like way..of being almost anything...

from poet to male stripper...
and no i could never be a male stripper in real life..dancer yes..but stripper no...

The internet is a great overall tool for greater ability in liberation of full..and i do mean FULL CREATIVITY..

for those who care to FULLY express themselves..

I love freedom of speech..per expression that our great country..the internet..and modern technology overall gives now...

But yes..i digress..sorry about that..

It's the autism..and i feel free to be who i am here..even when some other folks do not like it...

Gotta be free somewhere..i guess..:)


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27 Jan 2014, 6:33 pm

am severely autistic and relate most to the adrogyny concept,however mine is related directly to having no awareness nor understanding of gender differences and the gender social rules that seem to cause boundaries [like males only being computer geeks,females only having long hair etc].
have always been called a male,both accidentaly and as abuse,people always over- apologise when they do it acidentaly but am always laughing because to self genders are just the same and not something to get all silly about,have never understood it being used as abuse either as am not bothered by it.
probably no surprise am also the most extreme form of asexuality,have never had any hint of sexuality yet have always been called gay by strangers.



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27 Jan 2014, 6:50 pm

KingdomOfRats wrote:
am severely autistic and relate most to the adrogyny concept,however mine is related directly to having no awareness nor understanding of gender differences and the gender social rules that seem to cause boundaries [like males only being computer geeks,females only having long hair etc].
have always been called a male,both accidentaly and as abuse,people always over- apologise when they do it acidentaly but am always laughing because to self genders are just the same and not something to get all silly about,have never understood it being used as abuse either as am not bothered by it.
probably no surprise am also the most extreme form of asexuality,have never had any hint of sexuality yet have always been called gay by strangers.


I am not severely autistic but I also have no awareness or understanding of gender differences and gender social rules. Like still being a child, also physically, I am female, but have a body which is androgynous like a child of 10 years old and once I did cut my hair short, usually my hair is tied up in a ponytail, but when I did cut it short, my mother saw me and did not recognize me first from a distance, and she said that I looked like a little boy, I am 39 years old.


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youwho
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12 Feb 2014, 7:37 am

I've been thinking about this a bit more. This DHEAS remaining high thing may in fact be to our benefit.

Perhaps we are born fairly androgenous but can sexually differentiate further later on when need to,
potentially even going in either direction. We can wait until we have learned a bit more about the world and what we want to do in it, before we choose which way round we want to be for the rest of our life. It just takes the addition of the right herbs/hormones to give us a bit of a 'boost' in either direction, and then the bodies self regulating system can take over and finishes the job nicely.

At age 31 1/2 I seem to have completed my male style 'learning all about the world as an abstract system' stage, and have at long last finally hit puberty! But it's a female style puberty and not a male one, which is weird and very distracting to say the least when I'm trying to work, but some of the sensations have been amazing. My skin feels so much softer now and I've even had a female style orgasm. The morning after 'glow' felt so nice I really didn't want to get out of bed the next day.

I'm also finally starting to appreciate some of the layers of social reality that had previously eluded me.
I certainly seem to actually 'get' fashion a lot more now, and even body language is starting to evoke faint emotions. I think I'm bi-gender at the moment, shifting between seeing the world through very different modes of perception. The girly bubble-gum pink worldview is certainly very pretty, but don't think I'd want to be stuck in there forever. :D

This situation seems similar to the north american indian 'two-spirit' people. It looks like they used to have some kind of a ritual to determine which way a two-spirit child would 'swing', and then possibly gave them the necessary herbs to make them further differentiate into their chosen role.

I've not been very functional over the last couple of years leading up to this. My body seems to have been craving all kinds of substances required to prepare for the changes, but I haven't experienced any great pains during my 'transition' either, and have not required any medical intervention thus far.
I have had some very strange physical sensations though, and my anatomy seems to be changing slightly further by the day. There is still a long way to go, so I'll have to see what happens next!

Perhaps we just have to find a way to make our final gender choice and take some action to set the process in motion, before the biological clock runs down too far and makes it a much more difficult or painful process.

Or perhaps I'm just a rather unique case physically, something like this guy.



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12 Feb 2014, 11:24 am

crubs wrote:
It's interesting that you bring this up. I had been wondering if the lack of romantic success of aspie males was due to the fact that they were physically less attractive than NTs. Of course, females are more attracted to rugged, masculine, neanderthal-like men, and are very picky in mate choice. The reverse is true for male, who prefer more neotenous women, though men aren't as picky. If aspie males are more physically more androgenous on average, that would indeed make them less attractive on average, and therefore less desireable by the opposite sex.


This sort of thing has occurred to me as well.

In my case, girls tend to ignore me. For the most part, they dont take an interest in me whatsoever. Oh, every now and then there'll maybe be an exception, but for the most part they dont seem to care.

Other males on the other hand.... they tend to show LOTS of interest. The amount of this that happens strikes me as just a tad weird.

Dunno just what to make of it all.



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12 Feb 2014, 11:44 am

I look female, but my face is rather broad, and I used to hyper-rationalise and prefer adventure stories with plots to psychological stories eg Jane Austen. Later I realised the reason I hated Austen was the meaningless conversations, endless descriptions of social scenes mentioning people who are not in the plot, gossip, etc. I've since changed my mind and learnt to appreciate Austen esp Mansfield Park, and now generally find more rapport with novels authored by females (these tend to be Victorian novels though).



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12 Feb 2014, 11:50 am

I find androgyny attractive in other people, androgynous males particularly I find attractive, I don't know why, maybe its the mystery or the blurred gender lines its more interesting.

As for myself being androgynous I don't think I look male, I am petite in body shape, not in height though, I suppose lanky would be the right word, my face is feminine.

something quite strange though, I feel sometimes like I want to be an androgynous male, I want to be a male who could pass for female, does not make much sense since I am female and I don't mind being female but I would love to be male sometimes, I wish I could switch but be able to switch back, is that what gender fluidness is?



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12 Feb 2014, 12:12 pm

As an androgynous male much more so earlier in life...

Most of the girls that were attracted to me..were androgynous too...

As my masculinity increased by the time i hit 30..and seems to be in overdrive now at 53...

My wife the most feminine female that was attracted to me in my life..became my wife..at 29..and she 19....

And i actually wanted a more 'spirited' female than the soft type if ya get my drift...anyway..

So what made it work between us..is even though she looked extremely feminine..she had that
aggressive side..that keeps me on my toes..where with ADHD symptoms..i would have an extremely
difficult time paying attention to her..if she was too soft..and soft spoken..instead of a tiger in the brain...:)
and in power of intention in voice...

Even though extremely delicate looking on the outside..

I can look extremely mean..but there is not a violent bone in my body..as far as actually striking out at someone..
no matter how mad they make me...i do not see any purpose in violence..

and when a person can look extremely mean..most people will not mess with them..no one has ever attempted to mess with
me physically..not even when i looked feminine physically..but i certainly was not a threat then..either....

It's extremely amusing..to me..as i am a soft person inside..but my masculine physical exterior now..brings people to the observation..
that I'm some kind of specialized military forces..or law enforcement guy...

But i guess..the issue is..i have no fear..at all..and people can sense that..and usually see it in .. in a law enforcement or military type of way....

But no most of my life i had substantial amounts of anxiety..both social related ..and in general related .. toward the end of my work career..

that anxiety is now all gone thank goodness..and back to fearless...:) like i was when I was 4 or 5...:)

But anyway...life can be full of change..and is full of change..if a person is in a place they don't like..

chances are positive change can and will happen..if a person believes it is possible..and keeps on trying..whatever it is that is
the goal..in life....

And in my most recent blog posts there are pictures that more than adequately illustrate what i am describing here..both at age 13
in middle school..as the boy that was mistaken for a girl at McDonalds..by the cashier then...

and the man at 53 now..that is mistaken for a cop..or special forces military dude....:)at Super Walmart...

It's an interesting longitudinal life study in androgyny and autism if nothing else...

i love science..and why not make myself a subject of i too..is what i say now..in my much freer middle age..

to express all that i am as human being...:)

http://katiemiafrederick.com/2014/02/08 ... propriate/


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12 Feb 2014, 5:59 pm

I'm curious as to how much behaviour is ascribed as female or male. I've seen a few comments that say they are female but have behavoiurs ascribed as more male.
I am aware that Western norms classify some of my behaviour as more male than female, quite a lot. I don't care. But I classify myself as fully female and don't believe I'm male even in my behaviour. I grew up being me. I actually get along better with more women than men. In a superficial conversation, I find it easier to communicate with men as I'm aware (recently in the past 5 years) they find me attractive and I don't have to work so hard at a conversation. But easier conversation doesn't mean better conversation.
My female social group don't always get the stuff I come up with but I feel it's more what was expected of them when they were younger. But they generally don't mind and listen to me when I go on about the delights of Samarkhand or Bukhara.
I was truly left alone to do whatever I wanted and because I wasn't all that social when I was younger, I just did stuff with no expectations whether it was odd or not. It wasn't till I was a teenager till I realised some people might find it odd and still don't get why. (Intellectually I do, but still nonsense.)
I think there is an obsession in society to classify certain behaviours as male and female in an attempt to make one more positive or negative, ie in many aspects, male behaviour is viewed as positive (as an example, I'm quite aware that it's sometimes the other way around).
Many 'tomboys' (hate that word) I knew would disdain female behaviours as negative and laud practically every male behaviour as positive which I don't like. Just because a behaviour is male or female shouldn't make it positive. I liked playing with cars and I like heels (my feet don't like them so can't wear them). As many humans I also like decorating myself with various bits of odds and ends so you will occasionally see me with bright nail polish mostly smudged. I see no reason why I should use boring black tools when I could get something with flowers.

I like fiddling with gadgets and I like sewing. I still don't understand the purported uselessness of many male acquaintances with a washing machine but can fiddle with a computer. They are both machines. I can work out the programs of a washing machine and that of a computer. It makes no sense to me unless you are making a distinction in the end result and then you have to think ahhhh. :roll:



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12 Feb 2014, 6:01 pm

I'm curious as to how much behaviour is ascribed as female or male. I've seen a few comments that say they are female but have behavoiurs ascribed as more male.
I am aware that Western norms classify some of my behaviour as more male than female, quite a lot. I don't care. But I classify myself as fully female and don't believe I'm male even in my behaviour. I grew up being me. I actually get along better with more women than men. In a superficial conversation, I find it easier to communicate with men as I'm aware (recently in the past 5 years) they find me attractive and I don't have to work so hard at a conversation. But easier conversation doesn't mean better conversation.
My female social group don't always get the stuff I come up with but I feel it's more what was expected of them when they were younger. But they generally don't mind and listen to me when I go on about the delights of Samarkhand or Bukhara.
I was truly left alone to do whatever I wanted and because I wasn't all that social when I was younger, I just did stuff with no expectations whether it was odd or not. It wasn't till I was a teenager till I realised some people might find it odd and still don't get why. (Intellectually I do, but still nonsense.)
I think there is an obsession in society to classify certain behaviours as male and female in an attempt to make one more positive or negative, ie in many aspects, male behaviour is viewed as positive (as an example, I'm quite aware that it's sometimes the other way around).
Many 'tomboys' (hate that word) I knew would disdain female behaviours as negative and laud practically every male behaviour as positive which I don't like. Just because a behaviour is male or female shouldn't make it positive. I liked playing with cars and I like heels (my feet don't like them so can't wear them). I got bored with dolls. As many humans I also like decorating myself with various bits of odds and ends so you will occasionally see me with bright nail polish mostly smudged. I see no reason why I should use boring black tools when I could get something with flowers.

I like fiddling with gadgets and I like sewing. I still don't understand the purported uselessness of many male acquaintances with a washing machine but can fiddle with a computer. They are both machines. I can work out the programs of a washing machine and that of a computer. It makes no sense to me unless you are making a distinction in the end result and then you have to think ahhhh. :roll:



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12 Feb 2014, 9:41 pm

am completely androgynous,though am not sure how much of that is caused directly by autism or if its because of the intelectual disability side;am completely unable to understand societal boundaries such as why genders are different [right down to the basics] and usualy get confused with being male and gay,when am adrogynous and the most obvious form of asexuality;ie,lacking everything to do with sexuality.

will never understand why society has rules about what men and women can and cant do-or can and cant wear.


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12 Feb 2014, 10:50 pm

I am fairly androgynous, but I still experience distress over my male body and having been taking HRT and am working toward sex reassignment surgery. It doesn't seem to be connected to being particularly feminine or anything, but more like a visceral need that is hard to explain.


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13 Feb 2014, 12:55 am

I am biologically human and I am not sure how to "identify with" having physical features.