Would humanity be better off if more people were ascetics?

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hyena
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21 Feb 2014, 5:28 pm

I have heard that dairy and eggs are quite unhealthy.

Veganism does save 200 animals a year of extreme torment in factory farms. It is also true that buying animal products from organic farms save 200 animals a year of extreme torment (though not death). Another option, which I presented, is hunting. In that quote I did not say there are no other methods (a requirement for false dilemma), I simply said veganism does what it actually does. Someone can say that a small car can prevent x amount in carbon emissions, but that does not mean there are no other methods of of preventing it.

Buying from such places is certainly better than factory farms. Would you like to go vegetarian?

Janissy wrote:
Whole cultures have gone without meat but none have been vegan. There is a gigantic difference between vegetarianism and veganism. Eggs, butter and dairy make a huge health difference. I would consider being vegetarian because eggs are important for health. But I would never be vegan. It is just too unhealthy.

This is the logical fallacy called Excluded Middle. There is not a binary choice between veganism and factory farms. I have chosen to eat meat and I also do not financially contribute to factory farms. Instead, I buy meat from a couple of small, local farms which do only local distribution (one sells from a freezer in the barn when not at the local farmers market). This is a hand-to-mouth existence and I am happy to pay the higher prices (than factory farmed) that keeps them in business so I continue to have this option.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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21 Feb 2014, 6:13 pm

Actually eggs are. I hardly ever eat the yolks. They are nature's junk food. So are nuts and avocados.



aghogday
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22 Feb 2014, 8:10 am

hyena wrote:
I apologize for not being more sensitive. I did not mean to hurt disabled people with that comment. But as a matter of fact there are mentally challenged humans whose abilities are similar to some animals. Now that is a fact, I am not making this up. If we discriminated against animals based on ability then we would have to discriminate against these humans too which would be evil! I am opposing ableism.

aghogday wrote:

The greatest thing about folks with intellectual disabilities is they often live a life of unconditional love..not sullied by abstract language ..collective intelligence..that comes from the illusions that culture brings...

They often share this love freely..impacting the life of others..for the rest of their lives..knowing..that yes love does actually exist unconditionally somewhere at least..

But for those who are cold of heart or soul...

They can often cannot see this..

So for them..the intellectually disabled may seem worthless..

Never knowing that the true secret of the greatest riches of all..

Is the sacred love..that many folks with intellectual disabilities..
live
their entire life....and share with others..as
well...improving their life and love..in a priceless way..

Dude or dudette..whatever may be the gender..39% of autistic folks have an intellectual disability..

this ain't the place to make remarks like this about folks with intellectual disability..

of course it is offensive..no matter what you say you intend..

but i for one will not overlook it..

while you attempt to save a cow..
for lunch...


ya missing something..bigger than beef..perhaps...
it seems....

or IQ..the kind that is not measured on standard tests...

The greatest IQ of all is IN emotional intelligence..

often quite high among folks..who score low
on them..culturally created IQ tests....

Never dismiss love..if ya will...
as unproductive..biggest mistake..ever..made..
by any human being.. and the most unintelligent one..
ever..
for sure..2

And yes it is possible to love and respect a domesticated animal for food..
and kill it and eat for food as well..

The American Indians did this for tens of thousands of years..

And so do some farmers..and hunters still....

It's just a matter of respect..AND SACRED NATURAL LOVE OF ALL OF NATURE...THE HARD PARTS AND THE EASIER PARTS...

And understanding THE ALL of nature..THE WAY IT REALLY IS..and not trying to make it into
a contrived CULTURAL illusion....by silly little human ants...


Interesting..that while you support the rights of animals to live..that you put them in a subordinate place with humans ..simply as animals do not have abstract language..a written language for collective intelligence..or culture as a whole..

Verbal language..is not something that is only inherent to human beings...

Complex language..as a result of alphabets..written language.. bringing abstract concepts..and creature comforts..can be a great thing..

but on the other hand..the truth is..people who are of so called higher IQ's on standard testing..also have higher levels of anxiety..suicide..and overall problems in life that are emotional related as opposed...

..to folks who are considered intellectually disabled..who do not meet the standard of typical western culture IQ tests..

The issue really is ..abstract language..is a construct of collective intelligence and culture...

Some folks do better than other folks..acquiring the ability to grasp abstract concepts..

Other folks do not..therefore they don't do as well on standard intelligence testing..

However..here's the thing...that maybe you didn't get in my statement..and an overall truth about social animals in general..

They connect to each other ..they cooperate..they support each other...for overall survival...

Just because someone scores low on an standardized intelligence test..

Does not mean a human like this cannot be productive in sharing the greatest human asset of all..EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE..and enhancing it and DEMONSTRATING IT..for the survival of the species as a whole..and the fact that our domesticated dogs and cats..do indeed serve the similar purpose..in an inter-species dependent support system...to allow both species a better chance to survive with emotional support from both species..put animals on A SIMILAR level of importance as human beings..in this real REQUIRED ABILITY IN LIFE ..OVERALL..TO SURVIVE..

But this is part of emotional intelligence..TO EVEN UNDERSTAND THIS....

In reality..many folks on this site..are disabled in emotional intelligence..and cannot provide this type of support to their fellow human beings..THAT IS .. COGNITIVE EMPATHY .. ACTUALLY DEMONSTRATED....FOR ANOTHER PERSON..

IF A DOG GROOMS ANOTHER DOG...

OR A MONKEY PICKS THE NITS OFF ANOTHER MONKEY..

THEY ARE MORE PRODUCTIVE IN EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE..

THAN SOME HUMANS WITH 140 TO 160 IQ'S...THAT HAVE NO IDEA HOW TO DEMONSTRATE EMPATHY
FOR THEIR FELLOW HUMAN BEINGS..OR JUST DON'T HAVE THE DESIRE OR INSTINCTUAL DRIVE TO DO IT..AS A BUILT IN NORMAL PART OF HUMAN NATURE...

THIS TYPE OF DEMONSTRATION OF EMPATHY IS NECESSARY FOR ANY SOCIAL ANIMAL SPECIES TO SURVIVE..OVERALL...

AND INTELLECTUAL DISABILITY..DOES NOT MEAN A PERSON IS HANDICAPPED IN THIS AREA AT ALL..IN FACT THEIR DEFICITS IN STANDARD TESTING OF IQ..MAY ACTUALLY ACCENTUATE THEIR ABILITY TO
BETTER FOCUS ON EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE KNOWLEDGE ..SKILLS..AND ABILITIES..

TO BETTER HELP THE SPECIES FOR OVERALL SURVIVAL..PER THE MOST BASIC OF ALL HUMAN NEEDS..

THE DEMONSTRATION OF EMPATHY...

Many Autistic folks have no clue why this is so important...

Ergo..Emotional intelligence disability..EVERY BIT AS SERIOUS A HANDICAP ..

AS WHAT MOST PEOPLE REFER TO AS INTELLECTUAL DISABILITY...

AND part of WHY AUTISM IS CONSIDERED A LEGAL DISABILITY..

THE INABILITY TO PROPERLY DEMONSTRATE EMPATHY FOR OTHER FOLKS IN EVERY DAY LIFE...

THROUGH RECIPROCAL SOCIAL COMMUNICATION.

AND to be clear i do not assume you understand this prior to my statement here...

Lots of folks do not..understand just how important it is to..actually practice skills in ACTUALLY DEMONSTRATING EMPATHY FOR OTHER FOLKS THROUGH RECIPROCAL SOCIAL COMMUNICATION...

THE BRAIN IS AN INCREDIBLE neuroplastic and epigenetic tool..for change..if adequately challenged for adaptation...

but use or lose it applies..as in most area of life...

Live a life in mechanical cognition..opposed to social cognition.. and the social cognition aspect of life can wither a way...

Live a life in social cognition..opposed to mechanical cognition..and the mechanical cognition aspect of life can wither a way..

A balance IS best..and realistically indicative of the best chance..at success in life...in our extremely complex culture...

Science now indicates that there are these two pathways of the brain..one for social cognition..otherwise known as cognitive empathy and the ability to demonstrate empathy for other human beings...

And one for mechanical cognition..the intelligence of solving algebra problems..and building pizzas...

When one pathway is exercised in the brain..the other is repressed...

So folks who keep their 'nose stuck in facts' MOST all their life..

Really just don't have the opportunity..to FULLY become a human being..

It's simple math really...or common sense...

However..it takes common sense to understand it..
And often folks lacking in social cognition..strengths..and in effect emotionally 'slow' or 'retarded' if one wants to use that word some folks find offensive...don't have the common sense..also known as cognitive empathy to understand this...

so it can be a vicious cycle without lots of remediated effort..like one of those 'slow classes' for math in school...

To learn to be a human being...

And hell no..i know it is not easy...

It took me a full five decades..to become a full human being..

Sure i was always at the top of my class at school..and considered and called superman at work..for all my mechanical cognition abilities in the analyses and solution of complex problems...

But for all practical intents and purposes...for a long time...

i was emotionally 'retarded'..per that most important type of intelligence..the kind that many so called intellectually disabled folks excel in...

Emotional intelligence..the most important type of intelligence..for any social animal..
human
monkey
or
dog...for overall survival as a social animal..in whatever group they are considered part of....

And yes .. there are some autistic folks on this site..that some folks might recognize as having low IQ's or disability..but their ability to demonstrate empathy FOR other FOLKS..is enhanced and evidenced.. even in the words they use on this site...

As opposed to SOME OF the so called..really 'smart' folks...

NO.. 'they' are not as smart as they 'THINK'..

THE 'HEART' SPEAKS TOO..

BUT RARELY IN COMPLEX LANGUAGE...WITH FACTS ONLY...

IN FACT .. IT'S MOSTLY SPOKEN NON-VERBALLY .. IN THE TYPE OF COMMUNICATION ABILITIES THAT COMPRISE ABOUT 93% OF TOTAL HUMAN RECIPROCAL SOCIAL COMMUNICATION...
AND EVEN MORE FOR ANIMALS..AS A TOTAL PERCENTAGE...

NON-VERBAL COMMUNICATION..AN ESSENTIAL AND REQUIRED PART OF HUMAN OVERALL INTELLIGENCE..TO GAIN SUCCESS AS A SOCIAL ANIMAL..WHICH DOES MEAN LIFE-LONG SURVIVAL..

THE CORE ISSUE CONSIDERED AS A DEFICIT IN AUTISM...A REAL TOTAL INTELLIGENCE..DISABILITY.

AND YES..USE IT OR LOSE IT APPLIES..HERE..TOO...

SIT IN FRONT OF ANY ELECTRONIC SCREEN MOST OF THE DAY.. FIXATED ON A POINT ON A SCREEN..TWO TO TWELVE FEET AWAY...

AND THE INTELLIGENCE OF MOVEMENT SUFFERS GREATLY...
INCLUDING ANY POTENTIAL FOR THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE REAL LIFE FLESH AND BLOOD ABILITY

FOR NON-VERBAL COMMUNICATION..THE MOST IMPORTANT SOCIAL ANIMAL..INCLUDING HUMAN SOCIAL ANIMAL INTELLIGENCE OF ALL .. FOR OVERALL
SURVIVAL..ACROSS THE LIFE SPAN..OF
TRUEST REALITY.. LIFE IN GENERAL.. As a SOCIAL ANIMAL.

AND YES.. LOTS OF SO CALLED INTELLECTUALLY DISABLED FOLKS..
EXCEL IN THIS GREATER AREA OF INTELLIGENCE.. TOO..
THAT STANDARD IQ TESTS DO NOT EVEN TOUCH..

THE INTELLIGENCE OF MOVEMENT..
AND OVERALL
EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE..AS WELL...
for a MORE totalLY balanced human being...


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Last edited by aghogday on 22 Feb 2014, 12:49 pm, edited 6 times in total.

hanyo
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22 Feb 2014, 8:21 am

One time I kind of thought about being vegetarian after being grossed out by seeing a cow's tongue for sale in a supermarket but it seems awfully hard to find things I like to eat without any animal products in them. I'll never actually do it because I like meat. I would not be able to live on a vegetarian diet because many of the things you would need to eat to replace the missing nutrients that you would get from animal products I find disgusting and don't eat them. I also don't buy the groceries in my house so other than requesting a special item or two I have little choice as to what food is available in my house.



Lostathome
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22 Feb 2014, 2:38 pm

Yes, likely, as a whole, by the definition of "better" as "less turmoil".

But I don't think there's much of a point in humanity without such things. Our art, our culture, our desire to be more than mere beasts, to build more, to push the boundaries. These are the things that make us truly any different from other animals, and in asceticism, we lose a lot of that, too much in my opinion.