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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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06 Mar 2014, 5:06 pm

aghogday wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
trollcatman wrote:
Science says it's inevitable?

According to the laws of physics, yup.


This is the first that I have heard of this.

I appreciate a link if you have one to provide evidence for this claim.

I know ya'll are going to think a cable television series is lame but it really got me thinking, not just about God but about Asperger's and God.

Here is a little about what I am referring to:

Quote:
To contrast, Danny Abrams, applied mathematician in Northwestern University, has devoted his career to predicting outcomes through mathematics. Through the use of a Metronome Test, Danny is able to express that over time, the ticking of one metronome inevitability unifies all of them into synchronicity. The Tipping Point is exemplified through that aforementioned test and also historically, when the Spanish Conquistadors conquered the American Natives. Over time, the Natives realized the Spanish had all the resources and eventually converted to the Spanish way of living. Danny furthermore points out a study towards a census of religious groups over the last century (or two) and noted that non-affiliated individuals are the fastest growing group. Danny predicts that a religious minority will emerge, as religion hits that Tipping Point towards a kind of extinction.
Read more at http://nerdreactor.com/2014/03/05/throu ... 6rsdo.9944


and the link for info about this particular episode:


http://nerdreactor.com/2014/03/05/throu ... nd-review/



AngelRho
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06 Mar 2014, 6:46 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
aghogday wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
trollcatman wrote:
Science says it's inevitable?

According to the laws of physics, yup.


This is the first that I have heard of this.

I appreciate a link if you have one to provide evidence for this claim.

I know ya'll are going to think a cable television series is lame but it really got me thinking, not just about God but about Asperger's and God.

Here is a little about what I am referring to:

Quote:
To contrast, Danny Abrams, applied mathematician in Northwestern University, has devoted his career to predicting outcomes through mathematics. Through the use of a Metronome Test, Danny is able to express that over time, the ticking of one metronome inevitability unifies all of them into synchronicity. The Tipping Point is exemplified through that aforementioned test and also historically, when the Spanish Conquistadors conquered the American Natives. Over time, the Natives realized the Spanish had all the resources and eventually converted to the Spanish way of living. Danny furthermore points out a study towards a census of religious groups over the last century (or two) and noted that non-affiliated individuals are the fastest growing group. Danny predicts that a religious minority will emerge, as religion hits that Tipping Point towards a kind of extinction.
Read more at http://nerdreactor.com/2014/03/05/throu ... 6rsdo.9944


and the link for info about this particular episode:


http://nerdreactor.com/2014/03/05/throu ... nd-review/

Native American numbers are down, but they are certainly not extinct. They've merely adapted to a different way of life.

A religion such as Christianity is inherently timeless, too, and tends to grow with the culture. I don't REALLY think religion or some form of spirituality will sink into minority status, but I don't doubt that Christianity could potentially shrink to a minority among religious thought as a whole.

The thing is, moral positions come and go, intellectual movements come and go, and there's been some form of culture war or another for thousands of years. I really do think western morality has returned to a state not unlike ancient Rome or Greece, and poor political/military decisions along with moral degradation contributed to their downfall just as it ultimately will ours, as well. And when everything gets blown to bits, there will be SOME unifying element that doesn't rely on how "educated" or "enlightened" you are in order to reboot a modern society. Given the tenacity of religion, I prefer to think it will be a religious movement that glues the pieces back together. It doesn't HAVE to be religious in nature, but I simply see that as a more likely possibility than a purely secular movement.

If you allow for evolution, you have to accept that religion exists for a reason. So when plague breaks out, the caldera blows, and the asteroid hits, it's up to whatever or whomever somehow manages to survive as to how humanity proceeds (if there even still is a humanity left). If there are no scientists/secularists left, or too few left to even be relevant, whoever is left is going to rebuild on faith, the reason being that faith wins on simplicity, whereas empiricism/science requires a lot of study and experience. The same can't be said for all religions, so transference of spirituality makes it a lot more durable than empiricism.

Doesn't mean empiricism will go extinct, either, but it will have a slower comeback than religion.

Let's say you have a population of mosquitos and you treat them with a certain pesticide. You'll get rid of the majority of mosquitos, but leave a small population, the majority of which is resistant to that particular spray. Over time, that population can increase to levels comparable to the previous level before spraying. Once you withdraw the pesticide, what will eventually happen is the former mosquito population will resume dominance with declining numbers of resistant mosquitos. It's the same thing.

Sooo…pushed to a minority, yeah, I could see that. Extinction? Highly doubtful.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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06 Mar 2014, 7:32 pm

You have to put it in context. The conclusion is not within the time frame we are accustomed to living and bound to this planet. It is a fact, one day, this universe will be extinct and all life in it. What is time, really?



Jaden
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06 Mar 2014, 8:55 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Is it a natural evolutionary inevitability? In the near future, it is projected the majority of humans will not have a religion.


That's because there's an ungodly (no pun intended) amount of pressure being put on people who do have a religion, largely by people who think they're the "voice of reason" who try to use science as a means of ridiculing believers and questioning their intelligence. Nobody wants to be ridiculed because they believe in god and since that's what the majority of religions lead to, it's unavoidable that people would stick to a lack of religion to avoid ridicule from such people. The fact is, people are losing their religions because of intolerance.


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06 Mar 2014, 9:59 pm

I think eventually we will get to a point in our understanding of the human brain and the universe that Contemporary religion will necome extremely marginalized, it will be seen as nothing more than ancient mythology akin to greek, roman and norse gods


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Jaden
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06 Mar 2014, 10:10 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
I think eventually we will get to a point in our understanding of the human brain and the universe that Contemporary religion will necome extremely marginalized, it will be seen as nothing more than ancient mythology akin to greek, roman and norse gods


It's already seen as mythology, that's why the intolerance factor is in play (as I've stated in my previous post, though you probably never saw it).


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06 Mar 2014, 10:14 pm

Jaden wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Is it a natural evolutionary inevitability? In the near future, it is projected the majority of humans will not have a religion.


That's because there's an ungodly (no pun intended) amount of pressure being put on people who do have a religion, largely by people who think they're the "voice of reason" who try to use science as a means of ridiculing believers and questioning their intelligence. Nobody wants to be ridiculed because they believe in god and since that's what the majority of religions lead to, it's unavoidable that people would stick to a lack of religion to avoid ridicule from such people. The fact is, people are losing their religions because of intolerance.


Really its a fact, you got any evidence supporting your claim? I suspect the alternative may be true. Ie people are seeing organized religion from a perspective of knowledge of natural events and an incresed undersanding of neurological processes and are therefore becoming increasingly sceptical about the supernatural.


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06 Mar 2014, 10:19 pm

Jaden wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Is it a natural evolutionary inevitability? In the near future, it is projected the majority of humans will not have a religion.


That's because there's an ungodly (no pun intended) amount of pressure being put on people who do have a religion, largely by people who think they're the "voice of reason" who try to use science as a means of ridiculing believers and questioning their intelligence. Nobody wants to be ridiculed because they believe in god and since that's what the majority of religions lead to, it's unavoidable that people would stick to a lack of religion to avoid ridicule from such people. The fact is, people are losing their religions because of intolerance.


Really its a fact, you got any evidence supporting your claim? I suspect the alternative may be true. Ie people are seeing organized religion from a perspective of knowledge of natural events and an incresed undersanding of neurological processes and are therefore becoming increasingly sceptical about the supernatural.


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Jaden
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07 Mar 2014, 12:49 am

DentArthurDent wrote:
Jaden wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Is it a natural evolutionary inevitability? In the near future, it is projected the majority of humans will not have a religion.


That's because there's an ungodly (no pun intended) amount of pressure being put on people who do have a religion, largely by people who think they're the "voice of reason" who try to use science as a means of ridiculing believers and questioning their intelligence. Nobody wants to be ridiculed because they believe in god and since that's what the majority of religions lead to, it's unavoidable that people would stick to a lack of religion to avoid ridicule from such people. The fact is, people are losing their religions because of intolerance.


Really its a fact, you got any evidence supporting your claim? I suspect the alternative may be true. Ie people are seeing organized religion from a perspective of knowledge of natural events and an incresed undersanding of neurological processes and are therefore becoming increasingly sceptical about the supernatural.


It happens every day and the evidence is in every argument about religion, you don't even have to go further than this forum to see it take place, the supposed "intellectuals" and "free-thinkers" as they tend to call themselves, are always demanding proof of god, and they do so in order to make believers look like idiots and fools while attempting to invalidate their views and spread their own. I'd call that the very definition of intolerance, wouldn't you? After all, why should they care what people choose to believe?
The whole point of religion is having faith in a power greater than one self, people that require proof of a deity before they'll believe in it's existence are incapable of understanding faith or religion to any degree.
Over the past few decades, science has limited itself more and more to simply the physical realm, there's literally no studies anymore about the paranormal that go on at a large scale, it's all amateurs these days. I don't care that scientists have chosen to abandon all but the physical, but that's extremely limiting to scientific growth outside of our perceived reality (which is not all there is, science has proven that time and again over centuries) and until that changes, the proof that people are demanding about the paranormal just won't be produced by those who would be considered valid sources of that proof.
The supernatural has nothing to do with neurological processes, saying that it is, is tantamount to calling people crazy for saying that they've experienced such a thing. Oh pardon me, I forgot that you all like to use politically correct terms now... "mentally ill" then. Natural events will change perspective based on perception, nothing more.


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07 Mar 2014, 2:56 am

Jaden wrote:
The whole point of religion is having faith in a power greater than one self


My friend, there are many nefarious uses of religion:

- To subjugate the masses.
-To promote credulity in the masses, in order to castrate them politically, and make them more susceptible to propaganda.
-To enrich the coffers, and political power of religious organisations.
-To encourage people to passively accept injustices in this world in the hope of receiving rewards in the next.
-To help bust labour unions, and other democratic organisations.
-To help prey on the vulnerable.
-To encourage people to die in wars.
-I can go on.

Jaden wrote:
all, why should they care what people choose to believe?


To all of the above reasons, add that some of us have enough regard for our fellow humans, that we do not want to see them brainwashed, inculcated with guilt and fear, and under the thumb of theocratic con-men. I also do not want to be subject to the whims of said conmen, as they wrest control over the levers of power. Limiting their access to resources (believers) puts our freedoms in a less precarious position.

Jaden wrote:
over the past few decades, science has limited itself more and more to simply the physical realm


science
ˈsʌɪəns/Submit
noun
1.
the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.



Last edited by Stannis on 07 Mar 2014, 3:11 pm, edited 5 times in total.

Jaden
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07 Mar 2014, 3:08 am

Stannis wrote:
My friend, there are many nefarious "points" of religion.

- To subjugate the masses.
-To promote credulity in the masses, in order to castrate them politically, and make them more susceptible to propaganda.
-To enrich the coffers, and political power of religious organisations.
-To encourage people to passively accept injustices in this world in the hope of receiving rewards in the next.
-To help bust labour unions.
-To prey on the vulnerable.
-To encourage people to die in wars.
-I can go on.
1


Quote:
After all, why should they care what people choose to believe?



Stannis wrote:
To all of the above reasons, add that some of us have enough regard for our fellow humans, that we do not want to see them brainwashed, inculcated with guilt and fear, and under the thumb of theocratic con-men. I also do not want to be subject to the whims of said conmen, as they wrest control over the levers of power. Limiting their access to resources "believers" puts our freedoms in a less precarious position. 2


1. You do realize that you just listed nothing but stereotypes to religion, right? None of which are even part of the religion itself but rather the people who corrupt religion for their own benefits. Frankly, the fact that so many people think that what you just listed is religion unto itself, speaks volumes at just how brainwashed you and the rest of society are by people who would see religion removed from practice. Everything you've stated just now, within this text is nothing but propaganda based on the few. If you honestly think that's part of religion itself, then let me tell you, you could not be further from the truth.

2. Again, such people do not represent the faiths, nor do they act on the beliefs of the faiths, they use religion as a weapon against people, and as such have created the illusion that people see, leading them to create propaganda about something they know absolutely nothing about.

Quote:
science
ˈsʌɪəns/Submit
noun
1.
the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.


Which is precisely why it's stupid to use science as a means to try to discount the possibility of paranormal beings/happenings, because those things are not limited to where science looks for answers. That makes science a clearly inferior tool when it comes to the supernatural.


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07 Mar 2014, 11:56 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
aghogday wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
trollcatman wrote:
Science says it's inevitable?

According to the laws of physics, yup.


This is the first that I have heard of this.

I appreciate a link if you have one to provide evidence for this claim.

I know ya'll are going to think a cable television series is lame but it really got me thinking, not just about God but about Asperger's and God.

Here is a little about what I am referring to:

Quote:
To contrast, Danny Abrams, applied mathematician in Northwestern University, has devoted his career to predicting outcomes through mathematics. Through the use of a Metronome Test, Danny is able to express that over time, the ticking of one metronome inevitability unifies all of them into synchronicity. The Tipping Point is exemplified through that aforementioned test and also historically, when the Spanish Conquistadors conquered the American Natives. Over time, the Natives realized the Spanish had all the resources and eventually converted to the Spanish way of living. Danny furthermore points out a study towards a census of religious groups over the last century (or two) and noted that non-affiliated individuals are the fastest growing group. Danny predicts that a religious minority will emerge, as religion hits that Tipping Point towards a kind of extinction.
Read more at http://nerdreactor.com/2014/03/05/throu ... 6rsdo.9944


and the link for info about this particular episode:


http://nerdreactor.com/2014/03/05/throu ... nd-review/


Well..again no doubt in my mind that the outward practices of religions may change greatly over time..as information is shared more freely but the core of the essence of GOD that is shared ..potentially shared..among ALL..IS REAL..100% REAL..AND THAT PART WILL NEVER CHANGE AND HAS NEVER CHANGED NOW.

I HAVE BEEN asked to longer thread my insights here..AND I COMPLY..

but i like yOur open mind and i will share it with YOU here..ONLY..

by link only..for aFULLY OPEN MIND onLY...

http://katiemiafrederick.com/2014/03/07 ... -with-him/

DANCE..MUSICK..AND SONG..IS MY ONLY RELIGION REaLLY and if that religious expression goes..
life ain't gonna be much fun for me..:)

And many other folks too..i think.

It is the only way i TRULY CONNECT to what i understand IS GOD or the ALL IT IS..

And nah..i TRULY think IT IS too powerful to go.;)

Any WhERE as such but HERE..NOW..:)


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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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07 Mar 2014, 5:00 pm

What I think is really interesting is religion is thought to be connected to theory of mind, the ability to contemplate a mind outside of oneself and this is why humans developed this idea God exists. It's like a omniscient mind that can do anything and controls humans, to some extent, even though we have free will, some believe. In reality we are bound to the earth as a living part of it since we cannot live in other areas of the solar system (that we know of) thanks to the way we evolved.
Since Aspergers is said to interfere with theory of mind, would this make Aspies more inclined to be atheists?



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07 Mar 2014, 9:26 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
What I think is really interesting is religion is thought to be connected to theory of mind, the ability to contemplate a mind outside of oneself and this is why humans developed this idea God exists. It's like a omniscient mind that can do anything and controls humans, to some extent, even though we have free will, some believe. In reality we are bound to the earth as a living part of it since we cannot live in other areas of the solar system (that we know of) thanks to the way we evolved.
Since Aspergers is said to interfere with theory of mind, would this make Aspies more inclined to be atheists?


Yes..research suggests that this is generally related to higher atheism rates for folks with Asperger's syndrome but the limited research suggests a substantial difference but not really an expansive difference per about 26% as opposed to about 14% for a so called control group.

But what is more substantial in difference is there are fewer folks with a structured approach to GOD, however a general belief in GOD takes on a personal belief system outside of what is considered the Christian way of finding a path to and with what can be described as GOD.

This website is one source of that research, but it bears noting that this website is not nearly reflective of the Asperger's element in the general population with a reported slightly below average IQ at 98,

Most people that dare to post here are much more proficient and interested in writing and some type of public social interaction as opposed to folks who are more visually spatially thinking per a hands on approach to life, rather than one spent in the abstract thought of written communication.

What I think is more likely is that folks with Asperger's syndrome are often ridiculed at school or church for not meeting the social norms, so the church activity in youth leaves an extremely sour memory for some folks with the form of autism that was once described as Asperger's syndrome in the US under the DSMIV guidelines,

That's really sad as either making fun of folks with syndromes like Asperger's Syndrome, homosexuals or other folks who do not meet the social norm does not meet the TRULY professed way to GOD in the GOSPEL OF THOMAS from the ancient texts that did not make it in the official Biblical text in the NEW TESTAMENT.

But anyway, back to cognitive empathy, it can be a learned skill, much improved over youth, but it can be extremely hard to improve if one does not expose one's self and YES challenge one's self to IRL FULL social interaction to strengthen the pathway of the brain to empathy rather than the pathway to mechanical cognition like solving an algebra problem or building a pizza, WHICH research suggests can repress and wither away the path to empathy, both cognitive and emotional (affective).


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Last edited by aghogday on 08 Mar 2014, 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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08 Mar 2014, 12:24 am

Quote:
That's because there's an ungodly (no pun intended) amount of pressure being put on people who do have a religion, largely by people who think they're the "voice of reason" who try to use science as a means of ridiculing believers and questioning their intelligence. Nobody wants to be ridiculed because they believe in god and since that's what the majority of religions lead to, it's unavoidable that people would stick to a lack of religion to avoid ridicule from such people. The fact is, people are losing their religions because of intolerance.


What has changed is the loss of traditional social pressure. No one cares what their neighbor thinks today. So people without faith are able to speak freely and that's good. Add that to a general loss of faith in wealthier cultures and the effects of anti-gay and anti-science attitudes on the faith of young theists who know better. The latter is a self inflicted wound.

The holy rollers aren't going anywhere. But those attitudes are going to drive rational people away. Bronze age values no longer matter and the cherry pickers seem to have some strange bias against gays.



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08 Mar 2014, 12:41 am

It seems both believers and non try to bully each other into thinking one another is correct. It's an endless cycle of bullying. Well, in America you do have separation of church and state.