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thinkinginpictures
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14 Apr 2014, 10:11 am

We all hear this, from time to time:

"Educated people are more intelligent".

Example:
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt256511.html

Education is knowledge. It is memory. Intelligence is the computing power, you ability to process the information and allocate the memory.

I bet that a lot of unintelligent people can get a good and sound education and even high grades, whilst there may be a lot of
intelligent people out there who fails every attempt at the elementary, high school, or university or other educational systems.

Could it be, that they have another view of how stuff works, than the majority?
That they somewhat disagree with the authorities, but they lack the communication skills to actually prove they are right?

Well, you got to prove you are right, if you challenge the establishment. But that's sort of like saying:

"We believe in this and this, because of that!" - while that may be good and sound, what about those who find that the arguments put forth doesn't sound like an argument at all to someone else?

Example:

"I believe the Earth is flat because I live in the desert where everything seems flat. I have never seen anything else."

- and then someone else who have seen hills and valleys, mountains as well as deep holes in the ground, says: "I don't understand your arguments... There are a lot of bumps in the ground, there are hills, there are valleys, and there are mountains that rise from the ground and doesn't make the ground/earth flat."

But he is unable to prove it, because he has no camera, he has only his memory to recall that he once lived where there were hills and valleys and mountains, and not a flat desert.
He lacks the communication skills to actually prove he is right (in this case, the communication would be proof, such as a photo, but he has no camera!).

This last individual will fail the flat-earth school test. Not because he is dumb. But because he disagrees with the establishment.

Fortunately though, I live in a country where education is not so much based off factual knowledge, rather it is based off self-investigation and self-conducted research and source criticism is highly emphasized,
even in elementary school.

But our education system this way, is being challenged by politicians, who believe that such source criticism is dangerous to society.



AspergianMutantt
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14 Apr 2014, 10:36 am

Intelligence, funny word.

Most would consider it as someone who can intuitively understand or pick up on things vary quickly, or can sort out math problems with little effort.

Where if you take an obsessive person who has an interest in something, but seems slow in everything else, that person could still easily out pace the more so called intelligent person because of more in depth and informed thought being put into it. so in many cases its easy to mistaken an autistic or other as having a vary high intelligence then someone who actually has one.

And there are other things, while one person may excel in math but suck in other cognitive skills, another may suck at math but be brilliant in other fields

.


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GGPViper
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14 Apr 2014, 11:05 am

Food for thought:
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... 9577d8.pdf

From the abstract:

Deary et al (2007) wrote:
This 5-year prospective longitudinal study of 70,000 + English children examined the association between psychometric intelligence at age 11 years and educational achievement in national examinations in 25 academic subjects at age 16. The correlation between a latent intelligence trait (Spearman's g from CAT2E) and a latent trait of educational achievement (GCSE scores) was 0.81.

In plain English: IQ at age 11 can explain about two-thirds (0.81 x 0.81) of the variance in educational achievement at age 16.

Be aware, however, that there may be difficulties in establishing the direction of causality between IQ and education some studies (to a lesser extent the above one, though, as it is longitudinal):

See below (same main author):
http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/39/5/1362.long

Anyway, because of the high genetic component in intelligence (which increases from childhood to adulthood), there is likely an upper limit to how much education can influence cognitive ability.

So the high correlation between intelligence and education could very likely primarily be a "selection" effect (smart people are more likely to undertake higher education) than a "training" effect (the impact of the education itself).


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Ann2011
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14 Apr 2014, 11:18 am

I think that education is a tool that enhances intelligence. There are certainly plenty of uneducated people who are intelligent and can be successful. Education just gives you more tools to work with.


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Robdemanc
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14 Apr 2014, 12:29 pm

The two are separate things. Education is easy to define, but intelligence is not easy to define.

I have heard various definitions of intelligence. An interesting one was: "It is the ability to solve the problems in your life in a way that minimizes the likelihood those problems will be met again."

So it can be said it is a relative term. Plus, there is the difference between intellectual and emotional intelligence. EQ is often not considered when assessing how intelligent a person is.

But I think you are right(OP). Being educated does not make you intelligent. But you can be intelligent without being educated.



Jacoby
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14 Apr 2014, 1:13 pm

There are a lot of educated dumb people



jagatai
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14 Apr 2014, 1:14 pm

I agree that intelligence and education are rather different things. Perhaps intelligence is the ability to process information and make associative connections between ideas and concepts. And I assume education is the study of what is known, what is not known and how one may use information and ideas to understand what is not yet known and solve those problems.

Unfortunately education is sometimes simply a process of learning a set of facts and rules that do not adequately prepare the student to think critically. And intelligence is often thwarted when societies enslave certain groups or suppress women etc. Who knows how many brilliant people never had a chance to use their intelligence because a particular society actively suppressed their skills.

But it is important to remember that intelligence and education often go hand in hand. An intelligent person who never has access to education is often hobbled in their ability to use their intelligence. An education can provide a guide for what solutions have worked in the past and what ideas have been tried and found to be worthless. Of course a bad education can be just as problematic so education itself is not inherently an advantage. And there are those that, despite no formal education, find valuable information on their own and are able to feed their intelligence.

Many years ago I wanted to become a commercial photographer, but I knew no professionals from whom I could learn. I made quite a few mistakes and simply had no idea how to enter the field. Then I ended up taking a class from a very good teacher and after learning a fair amount about the field, I was able to successfully get good paying work. My intelligence was not enough to give me what I needed to learn the trade, but once I had the guidance of a good teacher and I learned a few of the key concepts, I was able to use my intelligence to figure out the rest and excel beyond my peers.

Some people make the mistake of convincing themselves that intelligence alone is enough to solve deeply complex problems. But no matter how intelligent, we all rely on the work that others have done before us. If, through education, we have access to the solutions others have discovered, we stand a better chance of using our intelligence effectively to solve newer and more complex problems. Without education (formal or informal) we are stuck with the limited scope of information we accidentally stumble on.

A good teacher can weed out the failed approaches and act as a guide to point the student toward effective and fruitful avenues of research. A good education helps an intelligent person make more efficient use of their intelligence. An intelligent person who has not had the benefit of a good education can often get stuck in modes of thinking that seem like they may be fruitful, but unfortunately they lack the tools to identify where their ideas may be flawed. (I've been here often enough to know whereof I write. :-) )


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Kurgan
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14 Apr 2014, 1:24 pm

Jacoby wrote:
There are a lot of educated dumb people


Depends on what education we're talking about. Maybe there are a few unintelligent people with a degree in English or history, but I've never met an unintelligent economist, engineer, or lawyer.


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14 Apr 2014, 1:44 pm

Robdemanc wrote:
The two are separate things. Education is easy to define, but intelligence is not easy to define.

Actually, it is the exact opposite. Education depends on the composition of the curriculum, the competence of teachers, the level of ambition, the social environment, potential political interference etc. These may vary massively both within and between countries, or even within the same city. An education from a third tier university is hardly equivalent to a degree from CalTech, even if the education is of similar length and has the same title.

Intelligence, on the other hand, has been refined into to a single concept - General Intelligence (or g) - through thousands of studies in the last 110 years ever since Charles Spearman introduced the concept in 1904. Recent studies starting in 2011 have even established a direct genetic basis for general intelligence through the use of Genome-Wide Association Studies (GWAS).


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14 Apr 2014, 1:45 pm

I think I see intelligence as something like flexibility of understanding. A particular ability to engage with something in an abstracted way, and to see ways it may relate to other things. To turn an idea or concept or problem around in one's mind.

There are certainly people educated beyond their ability (there's a bunch of them always seem to end up running the UK parliament). Where they are well educated, it becomes a kind of stand in. They don't need to reflect on and engage with what they've been taught, because they've also been taught various reflections on/engagements with the matter at hand.


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chris5000
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14 Apr 2014, 3:20 pm

I have met a few people that dropped out before high school they were all pretty smart in a practical sense
the current system of education is just memorizing



starkid
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14 Apr 2014, 10:12 pm

thinkinginpictures wrote:
We all hear this, from time to time:

"Educated people are more intelligent".

Example:
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt256511.html


Where in that thread does anyone say that educated people are more intelligent?


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LoveNotHate
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14 Apr 2014, 10:21 pm

Further complicating the analysis ...

"The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.” :D

― William Shakespeare, As You Like It



aghogday
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15 Apr 2014, 8:01 am

Well..at least to me there seems to be a clear distinction

in knowing and knowledge

Actually knowledge can be road block to the greatest intelligence of ALL instinctual or intuitive knowing...

Intuitive knowing is the type of intelligence that allows my cat to be a lighting fast ninja hunter..

But haha..here's the truth..

There is 'know' way to knowing without practice in full freedom of instinct or intuition...

Problem is though.. for those without initiation into their instinctual memory IS that YES! memory retained
from the experiences of their ancestors...which science is just starting to get a handle on with small rodents and such...TRULY EXISTS FOR THOSE WHO SEEK AND FIND THE INNER CONNECTION OF THE EXPERIENCES OF THEIR ANCESTORS...

BUT HERE IS THE COOLEST THING OF ALL..

WE ALL SHARE THE SIMILAR GENETICS..

SO..

WE HAVE AT OUR QUICK DISPOSAL THE INTELLIGENCE OF A FEW MILLION YEARS OF COMBINED INTELLIGENCE LITERALLY AT OUR FINGER TIPS FOR THOSE WHO SEEK IT FROM WITHIN...

BUT BIGGEST PROBLEM..AND ROAD BLOCK..

IS..

WE spend a life focusing on the expectations of our current culture..and ways of doing things..

I'll give ya... a little common sense example...

We as humans have the innate ability to float on land..

And yes this is intelligence..physical intelligence that not even a professional athlete usually has..

However..every once in a while someone like Michael Jordan comes along and displays some of this Ninja like skill..

Yah..when his tongue IS hanging out ..he IS flowing with the history of his ancestry of instinctual skills of the hunter and gatherer Ninja flow...

i am so dam fortunate as i had no choice but to seek inside..AS A RESULT OF THE WORST PAIN KNOWN TO MANKIND FOR OVER 60 MONTHS..and find this inner treasure of intelligence..wisdom..and remarkable abilities..that people have literally never seen before in human movement..IN MY LOCAL AREA...

The saddest thing of all is some folks actually have an aversion to moving anywhere in challenging physical movement..

Now if there is a true stupidity that is it..

And yes been there done that ignorant way of life...

Several hundred thousand years..of ninja like ancestors should be a clue..

But folks tend to specialize in skills and education now..to meet the demands of a HIGHLY SPECIALIZED technological society..
rather than tapping into..real intelligence..innate intelligence..the greatest intelligence of ALL...

AND NO I AM NOT EXAGGERATING ANY OF THIS...

I CAN METAPHORICALLY FLY ON LAND IN 360 DEGREES LIKE A REAL LIFE NINJA..THE MYTH..THAT IS NO MYTH FOR THOSE WHO FULLY TAP INTO HUMAN POTENTIAL..

AND IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE ME..CALL ANYONE AT ANY LARGE STORE IN THE PENSACOLA FL METRO AREA..AND JUST ASK 'EM ABOUT THE BIG GUY WITH THE SUNGLASSES..THAT FLOATS ON LAND IN REVERSE..LIKE A BUTTERFLY..OR REAL LIFE NINJA..OR ON THE DANCE FLOOR ON THURSDAY NIGHT WITH THE COLLEGE KIDS AT SEVILLE QUARTER IN PENSACOLA FL...

And as far as the inner experience of this..TRUE INTELLIGENCE..AT THE CORE OF HUMAN BEING..FOR SURVIVAL..AS NINJA LIKE SKILLS IS THE ONLY THING THAT STOOD BETWEEN LIFE OR DEATH IN HUNTING..IN BEING DETECTED BY THE PREY OR PREDATOR...

IT'S LIKE THIS...

EVER HAVE A DREAM YOU ARE FLYING..WELL IF SO..IT FEELS PRETTY GOOD DON'T IT..

WELL..FLYING ON LAND..

FEELS A THOUSAND TIMES BETTER..IT IS ULTIMATE BLISS..IN MOVEMENT..AND WITH EXTREME POSITIVE HEALTH EFFECTS..

AND FOR ALL PRACTICAL INTENTS AND PURPOSES..IT IS MORE ARTFUL IN AESTHETICS..THAN A HAWK CIRCLING THE SUN...


AT 53 closing in on 54 in June.. I HAVE THE BODY..OF A 21 YEAR OLD 222LB BALLET DANCER..WHICH IS EXTREMELY UNUSUAL..

AND YES..I CAN PROVE IT HERE..AS I DO PHOTOGRAPHIC AESTHETIC BODY ART..TO NOT ONLY WRITE POETRY..BUT TO LIVE AS POETRY...in true human intelligence..

That our western traditional school of education..CANNOT TOUCH.

http://katiemiafrederick.com/2014/04/14 ... e-4elohim/

BUT CAUTION..I DO IT IN WHAT LOOKS LIKE A COTTON SPEEDO..BUT MOST PEOPLE SEE IT AS AESTHETICALLY PLEASING AND TASTEFUL..IT AIN'T NO SEX SHOW...

IT'S THE BEAUTY OF THE MALE FORM IN ART...AND YES IT IS RELIGION TO ME.

INSTINCTUAL RELIGION..OF CONNECTING TO THE DIVINE WITHIN US..AND FINDING TRUE HUMAN POTENTIAL IS THE GREATEST INTELLIGENCE OF ALL ..INSTINCTUAL INTUITIVE INTELLIGENCE ..THE CORE INTELLIGENCE FOR SURVIVAL..THAT AGAIN..IS ALMOST LOST IN OUR MODERN WESTERN CULTURAL WAY OF LIFE....

NOT IN A FAIRY TALE OF SORTS....

AT ALL!

THIS GOD OF HIGHER POWER...IN TRUE CORE INTELLIGENCE FOR SURVIVAL..

IS REAL..AND PROVABLE..
IN MY LIFE AS DOCUMENTED AT LEAST...

NOW.

THE CORE OF IT.. IS THIS THOUGH..

ONE MUST FIND AND BALANCE THE FEMININE AND MASCULINE ELEMENTS OF HUMAN BEING TO GET THERE..

THE FEMININE MOVEMENT IS THE POWER..NOT THE WEAKNESS..

BUT OF COURSE FOLKS LIKE BRUCE LEE UNDERSTAND IT WELL...

BE THE WATER
NOT THE GLASS.. or CHALICE...

OUR MODERN EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM..IS THE GLASS.. or CHALICE...

THE INSTINCT OR INTUITIVE INTELLIGENCE..

IS THE WATER..

THE GREATEST FLOW OF ALL..

TO TRUE INTELLIGENCE...

(note: caps provided for accentuating communication..in the twitter world of limited attention span we live in..in other words..it spikes awareness...for attention..with adrenaline associated neuro-chemicals..to enhance emotional response..not unlike friggin' adderall...;)

and nah..i'm as peaceful as a butterfly..i am as far from screaming 'write' now..as a butterfly...

that left the cocoon..

of limited western knowledge...
long..
ago..

about 8 months or so..

ago...

i aint' ever going back to the cocoon..

there is no way ..

my wings will fit in there NOW..:)

;)

IGNORANCE IS GONE...
AT LEAST
FOR
ME.

AND WHY DO I GO THROUGH ALL THIS TROUBLE ON THIS SITE..

I THINK BLISS IS KOOL..AND WOULD LOVE FOR MORE FOLKS TO EXPERIENCE..IT..

SHARING A SPARK THAT MIGHT GET ANY ONE THERE..IN TRUE FULL INTELLIGENCE..OF A BRAIN
FULLY UTILIZED...

IS PRICELESS IN EFFECT..

IF IT ONLY EFFECTS ONE PERSON..IN A POSITIVE WAY..

IT'S LIFE IN TRUE EFFECT..

INSTEAD OF DEATH

IN
METAPHORICAL EFFECT OF BEING HUMAN BEING....


BEEN THERE DONE BOTH OF THESE HUMAN BEING EXPERIENCES..


LIFE IS MUCH KOOLER THAN
METAPHORICAL HUMAN DEATH..AS ZOMBIE...

BEEN THERE DONE THE ZOMBIE PART..

AGAIN..

BUTTERFLY IS MUCH KOOLER..

THAN

ZOMBIE...IN AFFECT
AND TRUE HUMAN BEING EFFECT
IN
NOW
ALWAYS...


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Last edited by aghogday on 15 Apr 2014, 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

heavenlyabyss
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15 Apr 2014, 8:13 am

[quote="chris5000"
the current system of education is just memorizing[/quote]

This. It really is mostly memorization.

The hidden assumption being that "our students are too stupid to think". Let's just give them an insane amount of stuff to memorize. This way the diligent, studious ones will be rewarded.

On the other hand, people who do bad in school who are always blaming it on the education system are highly obnoxious. Just do the work and stop complaining. School is about learning, not showing off a high IQ. I suppose that's the way it should be.



aghogday
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15 Apr 2014, 10:59 am

heavenlyabyss wrote:
chris5000 wrote:
the current system of education is just memorizing


This. It really is mostly memorization.

The hidden assumption being that "our students are too stupid to think". Let's just give them an insane amount of stuff to memorize. This way the diligent, studious ones will be rewarded.

On the other hand, people who do bad in school who are always blaming it on the education system are highly obnoxious. Just do the work and stop complaining. School is about learning, not showing off a high IQ. I suppose that's the way it should be.


i tend to disagree as many students leave school with absolutely no real life application skills

to live..BUT I DO AGREE WITH THE ROTE MEMORY SKILLS..REQUIRED..AND PART OF WHY
MANY AUTISTIC FOLKS DO WELL IN SCHOOL...
MOREOVER THE SO CALLED SMART ONES..THOUGH..THAT DON'T DO THE VO-TECH STUFF...
even at the most basic level..FOR ACHIEVEMENT..ARE SADDLED WITH DEFICITS IN REAL LIFE..
TRUE.. INTELLIGENCE..

in FULFILLING Maslow's BASIC hierarchy of human needs..

WITH REAL LIFE SKILLS GAINED TO ACHIEVE HOMEOSTASIS..

AND OF COURSE THE ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE OF THAT IS
CLEARLY EVIDENT ON THIS SITE..WITH INFORMAL POLLS OF FOLKS
AVERAGING IN THE HIGHER END OF IQ 120 TO 130 PLUS....

MANY ARE USING THEIR LEFT BRAIN..TO EXCLUSION OF THE RIGHT BRAIN..IN MANY CASES
AS IS EVIDENT WITH INFORMAL POLLS HERE THAT SUGGEST THE MAJORITY HAVE SYMPTOMS
OF NON-VERBAL LEARNING DISORDER..THE DARK SIDE OF THE RIGHT HEMISPHERE..exists in the majority
of folks here..reporting as such..in the informal polls...

And moreover interesting..is that while DSMIV and DSM5 diagnostic criteria will capture symptoms of
non-verbal learning disorder as a kind of reciprocal social communication disorder..the original case studies..
of both Kanner and Asperger..were of individuals who excel in right brain skills with difficulty in the output of verbal skills in writing and speech.. conversely..of what is more often measured in informal polls on this site..easy to find ..with a quick google search here..
on non-verbal learning disorder...


AND SURE IT'S NOT THAT SIMPLE...BUT IT IS THE GENERAL GIST OF HOW THE BRAIN FUNCTIONS..
AS SUCH...and the relationship to the type of autism that is prevalent on this site..
and obviously one would expect that..as writing is an output skill of verbal ability..
AND SURE THIS SITE IS ONLY WRITING IN AFFECT AND EFFECT..

EXCEPT FOR THOSE WHO ARE BRAVE ENOUGH TO SHOW SOME NON-VERBAL COMMUNICATION TOO..
THROUGH PHOTOGRAPHY AND ALL OF THAT...

Again..though..MOREOVER..Not a non-verbal skill of intelligence..per the right brain leaning folks..instead of left brain leaning folks..here..

PER TRUE INTELLIGENCE IN LIFE SKILLS..

TO SIMPLY SURVIVE..

RIGHT BRAIN SKILLS ARE REQUIRED...AS WELL..

AS ANY ANIMAL LIVES TO DO..IN TOTALITY OF LIFE...

IN HOMEOSTASIS..

SIMPLY ENJOYING THE BLISS MOREOVER THAT CAN BE LIFE...

SO THEIR VIEW OF LIFE..MUCH OF THE TIME..ON THE SITE..HERE..IN THE LEFT BRAIN WORLD...
IS LIFE'S A b***h AND THEN YA DIE..

WHICH IN TRUE FULL REALITY IS TOTAL BS..FOR THE WAY ANY ANIMAL EVOLVES AS NOW..
WITHOUT SILLY HUMAN COMPLEX LANGUAGE..COLLECTIVE INTELLIGENCE AND COMPLEX CULTURES..TRAPPING FOLKS IN A LEFT BRAIN WORLD..
TO HIDE THE TRUTH OF REAL INTELLIGENCE FOR SIMPLE HOMEOSTASIS..AND SO MUCH MORE..

if one does the same and takes advantage of all the good stuff..technology has to offer..in balance too...

Like my Cat hugging the grass on a full or new moon night..

Or rolling around in the sand..on a Sunny morn or afternoon...

That's TRUE intelligence..IN MOVEMENT AND BASIC BEING...ONE WITH ALLITIS..
OR NATURE..OR GOD OR WHATEVER THE F** OR FUN..ANYONE WANTS TO CALL
FULL REALITY...

Something many human beings are lost from...IN THE TRUE ART OF INTELLIGENCE
OF LIVING...and MORE SADLY MORE EVIDENT ON THIS SITE..AS A METAPHOR OF
CANARY IN COAL MINE IN TOTAL AFFECT AND EFFECT IN REAL LIFE HUMAN BEING
SKILLS..FOR FULL HUMAN POTENTIAL...

BUT IN GENERAL...

The evidence for thIS AS METAPHOR AND TRUTH IN REALITY..IS IN the furrowed brows of the populace..

everywhere one goes...

I don't need botox..NAH..
NOT EVEN CLOSING
IN ON 54...

i have homeostasis..
the best botox of all...

And better than that..
it's free for those with

REAL TRUE INTELLIGENCE..
APPLIED
AS
SUCH...

HOW TO GET THERE..
I STARTED ONE STEP AT A TIME
IN REVERSE..

AND KNOWNOW I FLOW IN ALL DIRECTIONS
BODY..MIND..HEART..SOUL..SPIRIT..
AND DIMENSIONS OF BEYOND..THAT ONE
NEVER FINDS IN LIFE..

UNTIL THEY ACCOMPLISH THE FIRST BASIC STEP
FOR FULLER ENLIGHTENMENT IN LIFE..

BALANCE.
IT'S AS SIMPLE AS THAT..
GENERATING ENERGY FORM THE CORE
OF HIPS AND ABDOMEN..

INSTEAD OF BEING TRAPPED
ONLY
IN
ONE'S
HEAD...

THE TRUE PRISON OF LIFE..
AND
YES..SADLY..FALSE INTELLIGENCE..
AND ILLUSION
AS SUCH..LEADING TO HUMAN HELL..
OR
WHAT is commonly described as the
illusion that life's a b***h and then ya die..

I say hell no..!

Life's a beach..for those who fully see IT ..experience..IT..
and apply it as such as one WHOLE EXPERIENCE OF LIFE..
WITH ONETHATISALL..AKA ALLITIS...GOD..ALLAH..OR WHATEVER
FREE FLOWING CONSTRUCT OF COMPLEX LANGUAGED SYMBOL
IS USED TO ATTEMPT TO DESCRIBE
THE ESSENCE OF TRUE REALITY
AND REAL LIFE APPLICATIONS
TO
GET
THERE
AS
ONE...

AND THEN YA LIVE..
FINALLY
AS
ONE.

THAT
IS!
REAL!
TRUE!
INTELLIGENCE..!
PRICELESS AS SUCH....!

And at this moment in history.
the eastern philosophies.and religions..
and practical applications as such..
are the true
way to enlightenment
and
FULL HUMAN INTELLIGENCE..
FOR LIVING IN BLISS..
LIKE MY CAT ROLLING AROUND IN THE SAND..
ON A MORN..OR AFTERNOON..
AND HUGGING THE GRASS AT NIGHT..UNDER A
FULL OR NEW MOON NIGHT...!


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