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LabPet
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30 May 2009, 11:50 pm

This thread could go in school & college/university AND/OR job related/work - but it's more inclusive so I'll post here. Just a question for you all. At my University one asked what would YOU (Autist) need/want your professor to know about Autism/AS? I have quite a few ideas but need to refine and you're the best one's to ask for advice. Applies also to your supervisor/boss, maybe a friend, other students, co-workers, etc.

I did watch the ADA video given to university professor and I did find this (at best) ineffective and even mildly offensive; just FAR behind 'real world' Autism/AS!! We can do better.

Some topics I might include:
stimming (how might this be interpreted by your professor, others...)
lack of Theory of Mind, our unique (and often gifted!) cognitive differences, learning style
communication
bullying by 'outsiders' who do not know
differences in perception and SENSORY
basic definition of Autism/AS (what I saw in that training video was atrocious)
behavior that may seem, to another, as affected or odd - but isn't
meaningful accommodations you need for learning, working


Or whatever else you REALLY would wish another to know, but they do not. For me, one I would like to express is that my emotions, or rather lack of, can be misinterpreted! Oftentimes one will intuit that I'm upset or <insert emotion X here that I may not have....> when that could not be further from what is occuring inside my mind.

Another, for me, intense curiosity! Aspies/Autists have that DRIVE that is insatiable and this should be encouraged, not ignored.

Any ideas? Parents, you can chime in here too. Sometimes what is presented at school or work is just erroneous and is then disadvantgeous. So what would you like 'them' to know?

*disclaimer....I'll not be copying this material or any specifics - just compiling a composite.


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31 May 2009, 12:52 am

Meltdowns


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LabPet
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31 May 2009, 1:23 am

sunshower: That's also my 1st answer after I saw that video - meltdowns must be known...and I'm meltdown prone. Thank you.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ahem. Separately: ADA, make my day. Payback is a *female doggy* ADA, you sooo owe me that FAINTING COUCH!! !!

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31 May 2009, 1:28 am

I'm sure most of this isn't true of autism in general, but if i was to tell people of "my" autism then it is what i would want them to know. (Ironically that's something that should be mentioned, individuals with autism are very different from each other).

stimming - I do not choose to do this and although i can "suppress" it to some extent, i progressively loss functionality the longer i suppress it, people should not ask or expect me to stop stimming

theory of mind - Subconciously and emotionally i cannot split myself from the person or people i am talking to. Having a negative opinion of someone else automatically equates to me having a negative opinion of myself and visa-versa. People should be wary of complimenting me and critizing me. People should be aware that the more i learn about them, the more i will act like them when in their presence, i have very little sense of self and tend to imitate people as a coping mechanism.

cognitive differences - I cannot remember what people's faces look like and i find it hard to associate names with people, i'm not purposely trying to be rude when i ask you who they are, i can't even remember what i look like myself. Also because of my left-sided deficit, i find it hard to remember exact numbers and facts from memory and might need to write things down immediately. When working from memory i will constantly make incorrect statements as to how many times i have done a certain task, etc, without realising the fallacy of my statements. I only know this because i've been told i do this by my psychiatrist (apparently the right-side of my brain makes up stories to fill in the gaps). There's no point suggesting i am wrong, or calling me a liar, if the task requires on you stating an accurate figure, then go ahead. I will equate your figure and my figure as the same number anyway.

learning style - I learn by doing, i find it extremely difficult to remember pictures or words, i learn best with examples. If i'm expected to apply knowledge then i really need to understand how things work at the most basic level. I cannot accept or use "It does this because it just does!"

basic definition of Autism/AS - I think the less you write here the better, the more you define the more people who exclude from your definition. I think it would be better to just state we percieve things differently.

behavior that may seem, to another, as affected or odd - I am not a drug addict, i am never high, i am not tired, i should not go home and get some sleep, my eyelids are regularly droopy. I have no idea of what i am feeling, i have no control over any facial expressions i might have, nothing negative should be assumed from my facial expressions.

Quote:
Meltdowns

Yes, this is very important. I think it would be good to know that i should NOT be approached when having a meltdown. Also when people think i am angry, i'm actually in a rage. I have little self-control, i'm stepping back from people for that very reason. People should not try to approach me or calm me down. It'll dissipate on it's own.



ignisfatuus
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31 May 2009, 1:48 am

Quote:
did watch the ADA video given to university professor and I did find this (at best) ineffective and even mildly offensive; just FAR behind 'real world' Autism/AS!! We can do better.


Yeah, it was pretty sad. I gave it to the disability department here, but it left a lot to be desired.

One thing I would mention is the tendency of some with AS to ignore hierarchy. There are some instructors who love to rub their credentials in your face and become tumescent whenever you use "Dr.", which they patronizingly remind you to address them by. When you don't, they become uptight and prissy, and generally go on to make the rest of your experience with them miserable. That still doesn't stop me from butting heads, however, although I'm damaging no one other than myself. Educational credentials mean s**t to me, and I refuse to address anyone by an honorific that isn't really merit based. If someone doesn't earn my respect, I don't care what papers they have hanging on the wall.

Group work. Although perhaps not all those with AS will have problems with this, social awkwardness is the sole key characteristic of the condition. I f*****g hate group work, and more and more instructors seem to be using it. I view this as lazy teaching.

Executive dysfunction. My organisational skills are s**t. I made it through high school without cracking a book more than ten minutes. This became problematic as the sheer volume of what the student was expected to know increased in university (it still wasn't especially challenging, but had I received the proper assistance in conforming with the system of learning favoured by the education apparatus, I could have easily been in the top 1%). I also have problems concentrating on something that doesn't interest me for longer than twenty minutes at a time.

Somewhat related to the group work thing is socially integrating the student with AS. If they are left on the margins, they are going to hate the status quo. Inequality breeds discontent.

On a sidenote apart from the topic at hand, I was approached by the university I attended this winter to help them create a program for students with Asperger's. It went very badly once again due to my executive dysfunction not being addressed, among other things. I wasn't the first AS student to get shafted either, as I heard through the local government health unit that several before had been unable to complete a single semester due to the disability department's neglect. I currently have a human rights complaint lodged against them and it's taking a nasty turn.


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Followthereaper90
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31 May 2009, 2:20 am

stimming
- mostly i try to hold it except at home but i rock,space alot

lack of Theory of Mind, our unique (and often gifted!) cognitive differences, learning style
communication
- my learning style is 80% kinetic and visual when im learning how to reptair car i need someone to go it with me step by step after that next time this problem comes i can easily fix it , others then that i cant show emotions like smiling etc lot its just someting that inst natural to me

bullying by 'outsiders' who do not know
-this happens lot too ecspesially if there are days that i just cant help but stim

differences in perception and SENSORY
-not much difference in here maybe with water only it always feels either too hot or too cold

basic definition of Autism/AS (what I saw in that training video was atrocious)

behavior that may seem, to another, as affected or odd - but isn't
-quote I am not a drug addict quote this what i would like to say too i been many times thinked im on drugs by police even by school nurse who suspended me from school until i took drug test<never going to that nurse again

meaningful accommodations you need for learning, working-
im on spesial school there u can take your time at one point of progress until u get it acsually lot of teachers think that im just lazy because at somedays i just cant take it and must go somewhere to recover a bit


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31 May 2009, 3:45 am

A great subject for those who lack Theory of Mind.

1. When they perceive differance, they seek to cure it. It is very recent that one method for all is not enforced, such as curing left handers and making them write proper, even if it means doing life in the Third Grade.

(A) Seeing their way as the correct and only way.

(B) Seeing different as something to correct , and when that fails, punish.

2. A lack in posing the question, "How is this different?" Verbal does cause problems, and with computers and printers, a written form works better, or an email.

(A) Our highly educated are not net literate, lacking eye contact, body language, a desk to hide behind, (The desk speaks), they are impaired by having to use pure thought, and we are only able to hear plain thought. Our natural state is a URL, waiting for packets.

(B) They send many packets at once, which garbles the message. Their attempts to communicate show how far off they are, instead of sounding like a dictionary, they reach out with "That's cool dude." Some sixties lingo they picked up from TV, thinking it will make them sound, "with it."

3. Autism is a differance in thought and perception. They see a machine, that has it in for them, hates them, and I see systems, parts of things, electric circuts, and do not have an emotional reaction to an inanimate object, or a paper jam.

(A) Their emotions have worked without being explored, then they meet us, and their love, hate, sexual drives, religion, should not be brought to the office, they are not work related.

(B) People who kick machines that do not work for them, should not be allowed to deal with people at all. First they bully machines, then people who are different. Turning red in the face and acting angry is not an aid to communication.

4. My foremost accommidation is being ignored. Communication should be clear and in writing. The intent and content does not change.

(A) I do not go to work or school to learn to understand people who do not understand themselves, I have already met them.

(B) We are involved in a goal directed process, clearly stick to mutual goals.

5. I am centered on myself. I do not care who wins at sports, who is dating who, and have no emotions to share. It leaves me lots of time free to think about work. Self is out to do a good job, and move on, I am not part of some office club. I am not with you, I am moving through you, and not fast enough.

(A) I will communicate when there is a reason to, so deal with the reason, not my refusal to join the football pool. I am not trying to bond, you are just in my way, your function is to order the part I need, Comply!

(B) In the rare event that I might care, want to know someone better, I will let them know. This is not likely, and I resent the same from others. To deal with you I must stop being me. It is not an inability to socialize, it is a lack of wanting to. I am being very open when I give out my email. It is based on self and function, and there are a few people I join well with at the edges. My only lack in dealing with humans is finding some. I do well with like minded people, they are few.

Relationships are judged by the quality of the exchange, not the number of relationships which is the norm.

My self and few others view of life is goal directed. Being a human, I have learned more than I ever wanted to know about them. I am looking at the background, the Universe, and how all those parts go together.

You see a plant. I see the air, light, which waves, the mix of inorganics it grows in, the things that live in the soil and convert chemicals, and the program that lives in this interface.

You think the Superbowl is the greatest event. I think laying on my back on top of a mountain at night, staring up at the stars is the biggest wonder. When I stand by a river I can feel the pull of the water moving by.

You belong with 80,000 rabid football fans jumping up and cheering a play, I like to be alone.

Our differance is small, you look inward to people, I look outward to the Universe.

You may think I turn my back on people, which you value, I think you turn away from reality, for it is vast and unknowable. You learn what other people have learned, I seek to learn from the source.

You find comfort in other people, judge and value yourself in relation to them. I focus all of my being on probing an infinate Universe in hope of seeing the reality beyond the illusion.

When I find something that I can relate to, I cannot get enough, till I have learned what there is to learn, and will spend years on something that to you is not job related, but from later years, I can say my method has lead to what I do now, which no other does.

I am building a self, directed by an inner drive, and attachment to some fields, where I am in harmony with self and the Universe. It may not make sense to you, it did not make sense to me, but the parts do join into something.

You learn across a broad front, I learn one thing at a time that I can join to what I know is true. My mind does not support fragments, it has to be one to function. I cannot learn what does not have meaning for me, or forget what does.

For most, school is socialization for work, and community. I am of the idea that school is about learning how to learn, and that is what I am after, not the prom and the big game. I spent my life reading several hundred pages of non fiction a day, and working off of that background now write, invent, am only a few years behind in technology, and I own it. I use the world I grew into.

My work started in my fifties. It was a long childhood, still going, but I chose a narrow path, and a long education. I know very few people, and value them highly. The end result was I missed what most value, knowing lots of other people, and gained knowing of the Universe I live in.

All people have a peak age, for most, it is young. For some of us it comes very late in life, and is just as worth it.

As a species humans survive because the young can adapt to war, famine, and keep it going, but in other times some grow long then contribute late in life, which then is transfered to the young. The outstanding part about our species is educating the young, and developing higher knowledge.

If everyone took as long as myself to produce, we would starve to death, if no one took as long, we would starve to death.

We need the football team to go to war, or work construction, because of species survival goals, some staying alive. There is no hope of changing construction workers into lifetime students, who will mature as writers, scientists, inventors, engineers, in later years, and just as little hope for a team of College Professors winning the Superbowl.

The personality type called Autism, is just as useless as the football team that does not become warriors and have a glorious death in battle, or even win. The species survives by building redundant systems, and just as some could become warriors, others could become inventors. A small percentage of each will meet their destiny.

Football is based on small squad war fighting, that teamwork is really needed when people are trying to kill you. Ten men and a battle leader has not changed since Rome.

On the other end were Apprentice Boys, taken at seven, who worked and were taught in isolation, became Journeymen at 14, and were free to leave, and work another seven years for wages, with no social life at all. At twenty-one they could stand to be examined by the Guild, would submit a Masterwork, and if it was approved, were made Guild Masters, and were free to talk to people outside of work directed conversations. They spent fourteen years in the shop learning one trade well, and were expected to add to the knowledge of the Guild.

Prentice boys were one in a hundred, just like Autists, and were chosen for the same traits.

Farm boys married at fourteen, prentice boys were forbidden to marry till they were twenty-one, and life was 42 years.

Only Guild Masters were allowed in business, held the knowledge, and when the factory system came along became very wealthy. The British monied class is very Autist. A seperate species from the commons. When they were pushed aside by the masses, England declined into growing unemployment and the richest country is now the greatest debtor.

Our five million year old species does not change quickly, all of the redundent is still there for the next ice age, meteor strike, super volcano, that will send us back to farming with animals.

Nikola Tesla was no good at sports, useless in war, could not enjoy a meal till he computed it's cubic volume. He did come up with alternating current, some great light bulbs, patented the computer, radio, and wrote about the internet. He was a great friend of pidgens. He also showed some inventions working that no one has ever been able to copy. He was not social, and had few but strong connections with a few people.

Nothing has changed, the only thing that can change is our perception.

We are few, different, but sometimes useful. Of my time, my inventions are of use to the grandchildren.

Many have gone in the factory or mine at twenty, and retired on the same job at sixty five.

For others, "You are where you are at forty."

For us, life begins at sixty.

It is not us, it is nature, species survival, and the main means of advancing knowledge.

We are here to help your grandchildren live better lives.



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31 May 2009, 5:56 am

I have traits of AS and I will be starting uni in September. I'm hoping my lecturers can be told and remember:
- I may misinterpret things, not understand what it said to me
- Other people gain useful information through having friends in the class and talking to those around them. People with ASDs are likely to miss this information.
- Michjo has a good point that people need to know that a person with an ASD may appear like they are drunk or on drugs when they are not!

(these are not the only things - there are more obvious ones that i won't bother listing)

It may benefit some people to have their lecturers know if they have problems with motor coordination. I have problems with that sometimes due to stress, and it can be a problem if labwork is needed.



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31 May 2009, 8:13 am

Alright... i got me an 'autipas' which consists of plastic card plus sleeve, which also folds out; i copied in the 'official' translation from the Dutch Autism Society (NVA); but that is not complete...

Some modern insights here, but also the usual contentious matter...;
but always remember: this is only a tangible LITTLE aid in presenting yourself;
the pas is only given on the basis of medical confirmation, so it does have some value in certain circumstances

so, in literal translation (definitely my choice of word, in Dutch either):
first the card itself:

a-side:

AUTIPAS The owner of this pass is [Robert Seepers]

b-side:

I have a form of autism
Autism is an information processing disorder which influences my behaviour.
This causes me to have problems with social interaction, communication and imagination. [Please] take the trouble and read the folder[-sleeve] that comes with this pass. That will make the contact between us a lot more easy.

plus 'sponsoring area':
This pass is an initiative of [logoNVA] [logoAutismFund] [logoNationalNetworkAutism]
Also made possible by www . globalidservices . nl


The official english sleeve-text:

Before addressing a person with autism

People with autism mostly speak clearly and correctly, and look very normal. The problem is that they process information differently. Therefore they sometimes cannot understand or interpret the full meaning of what is said or happens. Their apparently independent personality sometimes hides fear, insecurity, and social incapacity.

Therefore:
• Do not unnecessarily touch a person with autism.
• First explain what you are going to do, and ascertain whether your words have been understood well before proceeding to action.
• Ask simple and straight questions.
• Avoid irony or sarcasm, and do not use transferred meanings or comparisons.
• Allow a person with autism some extra time to absorb your information, or to proceed to action.
• Be aware that the person with autism does not intent to be impolite by not looking at you.


FOLD-OUT inside:

Important to know about this person with autism:

• may behave inadequate or strange.
• may seem inattentive, or not respond at all.
• avoids eye contact in case of stress, or when under pressure.
• may over-react
• may seem tactless.
• may seem cocky, stubborn or cross.
• may be extremely docile.
• mostly dislikes physical contact.
• finds body language hard to understand.
• takes proverbs and metaphors literal.
• may use formal, oldish or stately language.
• prefers fixed habits and rules.
• has a number of specific interests.
• often is unable to empathize.

[note roberto: above bullets are in fact tickable boxes]

FOLD-BACK-SIDE:

Important information for police, care providers, and inspectors

A person with autism is vulnerable, whether they are a victim, a witness, or a suspect. Impaired communication, interaction, and imagination capabilities may cause them to get into trouble, or frighten them when their behavior is not understood. Consult an expert to ensure the person with autism receives adequate help.

Autism, including the Asperger and PDD-NOS disorders, is classified as a behavioral disorder in the World Health Organization’s International Classification of Diseases (ICD10). If you think your client/witness/detainee has autism, please have a psychiatric report be made up for the legal procedure.

For information on autism: www.autisme.nl or www.landelijknetwerkautisme.nl

O3


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31 May 2009, 9:34 am

oblio wrote:
Alright... i got me an 'autipas' which consists of plastic card plus sleeve, which also folds out; i copied in the 'official' translation from the Dutch Autism Society (NVA); but that is not complete...

Some modern insights here, but also the usual contentious matter...;
but always remember: this is only a tangible LITTLE aid in presenting yourself;
the pas is only given on the basis of medical confirmation, so it does have some value in certain circumstances

so, in literal translation (definitely my choice of word, in Dutch either):
first the card itself:

a-side:

AUTIPAS The owner of this pass is [Robert Seepers]

b-side:

I have a form of autism
Autism is an information processing disorder which influences my behaviour.
This causes me to have problems with social interaction, communication and imagination. [Please] take the trouble and read the folder[-sleeve] that comes with this pass. That will make the contact between us a lot more easy.

plus 'sponsoring area':
This pass is an initiative of [logoNVA] [logoAutismFund] [logoNationalNetworkAutism]
Also made possible by www . globalidservices . nl


The official english sleeve-text:

Before addressing a person with autism

People with autism mostly speak clearly and correctly, and look very normal. The problem is that they process information differently. Therefore they sometimes cannot understand or interpret the full meaning of what is said or happens. Their apparently independent personality sometimes hides fear, insecurity, and social incapacity.

Therefore:
• Do not unnecessarily touch a person with autism.
• First explain what you are going to do, and ascertain whether your words have been understood well before proceeding to action.
• Ask simple and straight questions.
• Avoid irony or sarcasm, and do not use transferred meanings or comparisons.
• Allow a person with autism some extra time to absorb your information, or to proceed to action.
• Be aware that the person with autism does not intent to be impolite by not looking at you.


FOLD-OUT inside:

Important to know about this person with autism:

• may behave inadequate or strange.
• may seem inattentive, or not respond at all.
• avoids eye contact in case of stress, or when under pressure.
• may over-react
• may seem tactless.
• may seem cocky, stubborn or cross.
• may be extremely docile.
• mostly dislikes physical contact.
• finds body language hard to understand.
• takes proverbs and metaphors literal.
• may use formal, oldish or stately language.
• prefers fixed habits and rules.
• has a number of specific interests.
• often is unable to empathize.

[note roberto: above bullets are in fact tickable boxes]

FOLD-BACK-SIDE:

Important information for police, care providers, and inspectors

A person with autism is vulnerable, whether they are a victim, a witness, or a suspect. Impaired communication, interaction, and imagination capabilities may cause them to get into trouble, or frighten them when their behavior is not understood. Consult an expert to ensure the person with autism receives adequate help.

Autism, including the Asperger and PDD-NOS disorders, is classified as a behavioral disorder in the World Health Organization’s International Classification of Diseases (ICD10). If you think your client/witness/detainee has autism, please have a psychiatric report be made up for the legal procedure.

For information on autism: www.autisme.nl or www.landelijknetwerkautisme.nl

O3
u should get a driver license :lol: ill bet no police would bother hazle to give u single ticked :P (back to topic)


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31 May 2009, 10:48 am

I have no intention of discussing this with any of my professors unless asked directly or if there's a problem, however:

Please don't lean over and try to force eye-contact if I'm having a day when it's uncomfortable for me. This just makes an uncomfortable situation worse.

Please understand that I may not be able to read your facial expressions or body language accurately. Say what you want me to know.

If you ask me a question, ask the question you want answered; please don't assume that I'll just understand you want more information than you've requested and volunteer it.

Please don't be put off by my occasional rocking, nailbiting, swaying, knee-bouncing, talking to myself, etc. Most of the time I'm unaware that I've started doing it, although sometimes I do it consciously. It's just part of who I am.

(I sat next to one of my professors during a series of presentations on Saturday and was very aware that I was biting my nails and bouncing my knee through the entire three hours, but just couldn't stop. :oops: )

Yes, I will occasionally drag conversations back to a particular topic over and over again. I'm not trying to be rude; it's just something I like to discuss -- ad nauseum. :lol: Just gently point out that I'm doing it -- my daughter makes it a joke -- and I'll stop.

I'm often not impressed by titles and awards. A title is often just a job description and I tend to treat it as such unless I'm warned that I should do otherwise. I don't mean to be rude, I just honestly don't understand why someone's title or social standing entitles them to differential treatment. Please let me know -- again, gently; humiliation is unnecessary and counterproductive -- when I'm not reacting as expected. I'll do my best to understand and mend my behavior.

Regards,

Patricia



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31 May 2009, 5:11 pm

LabPet wrote:


Quote:
what would YOU (Autist) need/want your professor to know about Autism/AS? I have quite a few ideas but need to refine and you're the best one's to ask for advice. Applies also to your supervisor/boss, maybe a friend, other students, co-workers, etc.



I can only speak for myself:

I would like people to know that I am not a team player and I don’t work well in a group. I know this has some disadvantages and most people know what these are so I don’t need to list them here.
There are also some advantages to being who I am. Here are some of them:

1. I am self-sufficient. I am not dependent on others to do my work.
2. I keep a secret better. I don’t gossip, play workplace politics or waste time chatting with others.
3. I follow instruction, especially written ones better.
4. I am always impartial and fair. I barely manage to comprehend other people’s emotions so emotional techniques of persuasion do not influence me.



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31 May 2009, 5:46 pm

Quote:
what would YOU (Autist) need/want your professor to know about Autism/AS? I have quite a few ideas but need to refine and you're the best one's to ask for advice. Applies also to your supervisor/boss, maybe a friend, other students, co-workers, etc.


I don't sense information other than what is actually said to me. My mind doesn't make inferences or sense undercurrents.

I don't remember faces, so if I don't recognize someone, it's not because I don't care or think they are dull.

I don't understand use of language that is 'fuzzy' or figurative.

I don't sense others' emotions unless they are sending very concrete signals, such as crying.

I neither sense hierarchy, nor, when it is explained to me, behave differently because of it. I don't care if you're the alpha, if you disrespect me I'll stand up to you and if you spew racism I'll yell at you.

I am entirely linear minded. I don't do well when concentrating on several things at once. I will zone out and focus only on one, whether I want to or not.

If you try and get me to take in too much information at once, I'll become overloaded and not retain anything.

I learn sequentially in a linear fashion. I don't manage to learn several things at once; again, I zone out and focus on only one aspect. I need to learn things one after the other to develop gestalt.

I think that's all.


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MONKEY
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Joined: 3 Jan 2009
Age: 27
Gender: Female
Posts: 9,896
Location: Stoke, England (sometimes :P)

31 May 2009, 6:09 pm

Dear *whoever* some things to know about me:

1. I prefer to be told things and not being left to use my intuition, I miss alot of signals. I can how-ever pick up obvious emotion.
2. If I'm not looking directly at you, I am still listening I just don't like eye contact.
3. My handshakes are sloppy, but that is because I am uncomfortable with most physical contact unless I initiate it.
4. I do alot leg shaking, hair twisting, nail biting and other annoying little things, I must warn you if you are easily annoyed.
5. I will repeat the same thing over and over until I know I'm heard, give me an obvious preferably verbal sign you heard me.
6. If you are upset, tell me how you want to be comforted, I am crap at that sort of thing.
7. I am terrible with verbal instructions, so if there is more than one write it, I am more visual.
8. I am unorganised and forgetful and don't have much motivational skills, this is executive dysfunction so keep on reminding me to do things and make sure I'm doing them in time, it will be greatly appreciated.
9. I often take ages to answer a quesition or I miss what people are saying for a while, but I swear I'm listening it takes longer to sink in.
10. I don't work well in a team, I prefer individual.

Your's truly, Sophie


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ignisfatuus
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Joined: 5 Feb 2008
Age: 40
Gender: Male
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Location: Canada

31 May 2009, 7:59 pm

The Autipas which oblio copied out, while one would initially dismiss it as condescending, actually provides some useful information. I'm just not sure I would want to carry around a tag like some lab specimen.


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