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Greentea
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07 Jun 2009, 7:00 am

The women in my family were the ones who performed most of the abuse, who were the least tolerant of my being different and who ruled the relations in the family. Mostly my mother, my sister and my aunt.

Women are indeed able to see through other women much more easily than men can, so it's harder to endear myself with them. They're also the "social police" of society, always making sure the weird stay out or are punished into normalcy.

I've belonged for a few years to a group of (mostly middle-aged) women who don't enjoy seeing other women in a romantic-erotic relationship, so we write M/M (Male-slash-Male). The group I belong to write X-Files (Skinner/Mulder/Krycek). Yes, we're THAT old :) Reading and writing slash fanfic is one of my minor obsessions nowadays, though. No. 1 nowadays is collecting my own photos of Jerusalem.


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activebutodd
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07 Jun 2009, 7:26 am

Maybe women are more likely to judge other women as competition, or as being calculating? I don't know what age group of men would draw which conclusions really.



Crassus
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07 Jun 2009, 7:33 am

What you say about the social police of society rings true for me. I've come to realize that within my community, I get a lot of free passes. I'm white, male, tall, good looking, smart, and athletic if not always entirely coordinated. So as long as I knew when to just be quiet, people wanted to go out of the way to have me around and I was perfectly happy with just being around them. Girls were always telling me they felt safe around me, which meant guys need to be able to be around me because the girls were going to be around me and they want to be around the girls. I've usually tended to be the enforcer type in a group, I'm laid back until you get my hackles up and then I drop the hammer and you damn well know it got dropped on you. I'll express a deep attentive interest in pretty much anything someone says, but I'll hardly ever take it personally.

I have to smile at how much went over my head back then. In retrospect, how many girls were trying to be my girlfriend and I just didn't get it. We would have these intimate conversations, and then because they didn't outright tell me okay now you should kiss me, I never acted. Then they feel jilted and suddenly I'm being ignored by a large faction of the school for a week or two. So I keep my head down and do my thing, they get over it, and everybody wants to be my friend again and I don't even realize we weren't friends until they say let's be friends again.

Where did I learn to Get It with a lot of this kind of thing? Why, Erotica of course! When a good author writes good literature that happens to have an erotica element, suddenly all of those subconscious little things the NTs do are being written out dissertation style, as long as you understand how to read it. Much of the higher quality stuff I found was in the science fiction, low/high fantasy genres. Heinlein is probably what got me started on it, what with his crazy sexual politics antics in the Lazarus Long series. I can remember reading a certain AD Skinner/The Smoking Man story that had some interesting points about loving thy enemy.



fiddlerpianist
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07 Jun 2009, 8:17 am

Being a musician who plays out in bars, I've been told by my band mates that there are many women that flirt with me, sometimes heavily. Unless it's incredibly obvious, I usually miss the cues entirely. Back when I had really long, wild hair, I had many women come up to me and ask if they could touch my hair. Apparently this is always considered to be flirting; I just thought they wanted to make sure I wasn't wearing a wig!

As a rule, I seem to get along better with women than men. It could be because men often take small talk in the direction of sports, and I have zero interest in talking about sports at any level... unless it's to prove how incredibly ignorant I am in that subject.


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pschristmas
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07 Jun 2009, 8:35 am

I've been told that I don't notice men flirting with me.

I do occasionally notice, but it feels weird to me when they do and I'm never quite sure I'm reading them correctly. I'd prefer if they'd just get on with things and ask what they want to ask.

I'm pretty bad at flirting back.

Regards,

Patricia



Crassus
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07 Jun 2009, 9:21 am

Yes, when somebody asks for explicit permission to make physical contact with a stranger, that can be construed as flirting. That is actually what I call propositioning. People even enjoy my humor about it, if I'm out in a group and somebody approaches someone in the group and says something like "wow your hair looks so soft, do you mind if I touch it?" and the person being asked seems flattered but unsure how to respond, I might say something like "oh snap, you just got propositioned man, we'll give you some alone time" and immediately isolate, move the group a short distance away from the two so they have a chance to test the waters of each other without us all gawking.

The thing is, good flirting will always be a moving target. Context is important, and it is a miracle level feat to consistently predict what your own context is going to be, let alone somebody you know hardly anything about other than that you want to know more. How do you hit a target that moves well to avoid hits? Become a sharpshooter, or take enough shots to get lucky. Sometimes you bring a wingman to lay suppressing fire and flush a target into a predictable motion and clock them.



sgrannel
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07 Jun 2009, 9:26 am

I've apparently had trouble reading flirt cues. This is one of the more troubling aspects with NT communication for me. Lack of response to ambiguous messages can be interpreted as rejection. Quick movement into intimate territory without time to build trust seems to be required, and that doesn't happen with me, but this has also kept me out of trouble. However, I have rejected people under circumstances that seemed inappropriate to me, or maybe I just wasn't ready for it at the time.

It's a common pattern that women who get along very well with men will have trouble getting along with women, possibly because they seem like a threat to relationships. I have interpreted the inability of some women to get along with each other as a mild turnoff.


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sgrannel
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07 Jun 2009, 9:32 am

fiddlerpianist wrote:
As a rule, I seem to get along better with women than men. It could be because men often take small talk in the direction of sports, and I have zero interest in talking about sports at any level... unless it's to prove how incredibly ignorant I am in that subject.


I have no interest in sports either. I also seem to be aligned more for women, even though I can get along with men, and like to do some manly things. Other students had pictures of football players on their walls, I had pictures of famous women.


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lettiehx
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07 Jun 2009, 9:52 am

I found that also. I tend to get jerks on dating sites keep chatting me up. I do realise my precociousness can be a percieved threat to other females. I have more male friends than female. Auties generally do because NT females are more emotional and we are more practical.
I was in a short relationship but the guy has just dumped me and I found he had a problem with my Aspieness. I get what appears jealouy and controlling behaviour when it is me trying to cope in a NT world



Crassus
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07 Jun 2009, 9:58 am

I'm guessing you don't mean say, Cindy Crawford and Pamela Anderson like all the boys when I was in school had. Plenty of girls that just wanted some football player eye candy to look at between class periods (originally written without inserting class, did NOT read correctly at all). I've probably mentioned it more than once on this forum already, but everybody should keep in mind that flirting and interpersonal relationships are a huge source of confusion and stress and drama amongst a set of completely NT individuals as well.

Mostly I feel they just have a better sense of when things are going off the rails and how to get them back on track with each other. The whole they misunderstand each other but realize they misunderstood quickly. For me it will be five years later, I'll be replaying a conversation with an ex girlfriend to myself and go "OHHHHHHHHH. I'm so aspie." Then shake my head, integrate the knowledge, and move on. Which takes us to another way it is different. I get overwhelmed by a persistent chirping sound and shutdown but deeply emotional things I manage to take in stride and give an outward appearance of being unaffected by it. It gets taken as a sign I don't really care about a person when I just need time to process what they told me. Or to even render the sounds into understandable speech.



WoodenNickel
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07 Jun 2009, 10:29 am

I find that American women find flirting to be offensive. You're implying that you want to do the dirty deed, and I mean DIRTY, with them, even when your intent is just to say something nice to them. 8O Really, how offensive is "You look good today!" or "That's a beautiful dress."???

On the other hand, I find that foreign women are more receptive to compliments. Saying something to make them feel good is not terrible.

I never have had an American girlfriend. What a surprise! :wink: I really have no understanding of American mating rituals.

Still, it did take me a while to understand this flirting and mating business. I have long known when a woman is attracted to me. I know when I can flirt harmlessly. One rule is not to flirt with an American woman.



serenity
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07 Jun 2009, 12:03 pm

pschristmas wrote:
I've been told that I don't notice men flirting with me.

I do occasionally notice, but it feels weird to me when they do and I'm never quite sure I'm reading them correctly. I'd prefer if they'd just get on with things and ask what they want to ask.

I'm pretty bad at flirting back.

Regards,

Patricia


This is pretty much my experience. I don't even notice (unless the guy is out, and out hitting on me) and I wouldn't have a clue as to how to flirt back even if I were interested. To me, flirting is just another one of those complex social dances that people do that I'll never quite grasp. I'm also equally uncomfortable around all people, regardless of age, or gender.



Ben_Shapiro
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07 Jun 2009, 12:59 pm

It is only recently I had flirting explained to me, two of my friends met while I was there and then when I was alone with one of them, I had explained to me the whole concept. This only happened about 3 months ago. Ignorance was good because I felt nothing, now apparently there is a non-optional social protocol to do something at some point, either accept or reject. Of course I rejected but now that apparently makes the other person unhappy? Surely they knew they were entering a game of chance? Anyway the point is flirting makes even less sense than a lot of other crazy social hocus that goes on.



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07 Jun 2009, 1:01 pm

You look good today creates the implied dichotomy of you do not look good other days. Same goes for That is a beautiful dress, oh you mean usually my dresses suck? they are also generic and do not make the target feel special. A compliment paid to somebody should demonstrate awareness of the person you pay it to. Your eyes are especially striking today. I like when you sweep your hair up because I can see your cute ears. I love when you wear blue, and in my view that is an exceptional hue of blue for you. See what I did there?



Ben_Shapiro
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07 Jun 2009, 1:16 pm

Are you saying that flirting and complementing someone of your preferred mating gender is the same?



Crassus
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07 Jun 2009, 1:37 pm

In cases where the complement is suggestive of an interest beyond the cultural norm for the current relationship especially. It is not even reliant on a preferred mating gender. To "flirt" means to flower. You allow your inner self to bloom upwards and outwards and reflect another individuals beauty at them by allowing it to shine off your own. You reinforce another individuals confidence of self by showing them the wonderful qualities they display to you. By virtue of positive reinforcement, the qualities you like in them are encouraged. If they like those qualities in themselves, and they like the way you make them feel when they exhibit them, they will embrace them and embody them and with great care possibly transcend them and find something new about themselves that is even more wonderful. You may just be lucky enough to experience these new wonders right along side them. They will be encouraging the same process in you.

I've been using the superficial physical layer for demonstration purposes since that tends to be how you first notice people, you see them from afar and something catches. Or you hear their voice. Maybe it just has a melody that hits you. They make such a poignant statement you MUST know more. You feel it. Some times it is the smallest little tug, easy to miss when you are a little distracted. Some times your heart just stops. You have that moment where they become the entire focus of your world.