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Henriksson
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13 Jun 2009, 10:53 am

I don't really have much to say right now, but I'll use this as a subscription to see what happens in this discussion...


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Sand
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13 Jun 2009, 11:07 am

claire333 wrote:
:lol: Good to see you back, Sand. At first, I read ruveyn's post the same way and then noticed the period after the word frying. I was about to raise the same questions but concluded he just meant no frying and the other methods are used instead.


My computer has been down for a while and the peace and lack of contention has been so delightful that I have become addicted. My contributions haven't made a scratch not to speak of a dent in any of the discussions since the same questions with no modifications arise like overnight fungus no matter what I or anybody else says. It's a perpetual circus full of clowns (and I do not except myself from the farce) and the frenetic effects are pretty emotionally abrasive.

I apologize to rubeyn for my assuming the dot was a comma. His appetite for raw meat was so in conformity to his other lacks of empathy for other living creatures that I mistakenly assumed his savagery was universal. My bad.



phil777
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13 Jun 2009, 11:15 am

I kinda feel ya there, i was watching TV these days, and a pub for cream now has a guy wondering if he should put cream in his dish... Then all'a sudden, the time machine from "Back to the future" shows up and a future version of the guy shows up and tells him to add cream -.- So hum yeah, American influence does that... I think there was another pub for cream based on a hollywood movie concept, or something equally predictable. -.-

And hum Zeno, if i reckon right, whatever they were hunting for in the beginning has been said to be hiding in Pakistan all along =.= They're merely repositionning ressources to where they should go. I reckon even Pakistan has had it up to there with the trouble caused in the tribal regions (not to mention that they are becoming increasingly bold at attacking the cities within the other provinces of the county).

Also, one should study american history to notice that there's actually 4 sectors of a 2 axis branch (kinda like a cartesian plan). American "imperialism" is one of them, in the upper right corner. I reckon during WW1 and the start of WW2, Americans decided they didn't care about the rest of the world either (which quickly changed). And then you have the Clintonian approach, which is "cooperation" and "leadership" with the rest of the other countries of the world. So meh, you could say that American politics are quite complex (if not one of the most complex aspects of American society o.O ) .

And ouch Sand, even though Ruveyn comes across as harsh sometimes (ok, maybe i'm being nice by saying "sometimes" but i,ll let you judge o.O ), i doubt he's the most harmful of them all. <.< And huh, i thought personnal attacks were against the laws of winning an argument? =( Pity when such good rules get trampled on.



pakled
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13 Jun 2009, 11:28 am

Actually, Singapore has long been held up as an 'alternative' to capitalism or communism. A combination of strict control of freedoms while allowing nearly unfettered markets has probably been copied more by China than they'd care to admit.

We may have invented the internet (DARPA), but it was a European who invented the WWW (and his name wasn't Gore...;)

I don't know...I'm probably not entirely objective at the moment, but I think we've peaked. Where we go from here will depend on getting some of us back to work. What those conditions are, we'll have to see.



monty
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13 Jun 2009, 11:53 am

Zeno wrote:
The Chinese on the other hand have made tremendous sacrifices to get to where they are today.


No doubt.


Zeno wrote:
Despite the filth and grime of Chinese cities, the average Chinese actually contributes far less to the global strain on natural resources because they tend to be very careful about what they consume.


At the moment, yes. As they continue to develop, per capita consumption of resources and generation of pollution by the Chinese will certainly grow. They are setting themselves into a pattern (autos, poorly planned urbanization, increased meat consumption, etc) that in many ways mimics the inefficiencies of the west.


Zeno wrote:
The pollution in China is a result of Western countries exporting their dirty industries to China and thus keeping their own home environments clean.


Well, the Chinese were eager to import the dirty industry, so I don't think that all blame goes to the western countries. And many of those industries could be much cleaner if there was a will. The tainted milk scandal was merely an easy to understand example of the type of thing that is going on at different scales times 100,000.



Sand
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13 Jun 2009, 11:57 am

phil777 wrote:
And ouch Sand, even though Ruveyn comes across as harsh sometimes (ok, maybe i'm being nice by saying "sometimes" but i,ll let you judge o.O ), i doubt he's the most harmful of them all. <.< And huh, i thought personnal attacks were against the laws of winning an argument? =( Pity when such good rules get trampled on.


You see? A bit of fun is suddenly a personal attack. Unfortunately I really can't see ruveyn's desire to atom bomb all the Muslim countries into dust as properly designated merely as acceptably harsh.



claire-333
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13 Jun 2009, 12:16 pm

Sand wrote:
My computer has been down for a while and the peace and lack of contention has been so delightful that I have become addicted.
I can see how that would happen. My current computer addiction has only occurred within the last year. Perhaps I am also in need of some technical difficulties to remedy my situation.
Sand wrote:
My contributions haven't made a scratch not to speak of a dent in any of the discussions since the same questions with no modifications arise like overnight fungus no matter what I or anybody else says.
Well, if nothing else, you may have acquired a few fans of you writing style. :D



Oggleleus
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16 Jun 2009, 10:39 am

I do agree that consumerism has a negative effect on American society but would like to point out a couple things from my observations.

First, I have run into consumerism more at the Govt. level than anywhere else. Period. Working as a contractor I have first hand run into more Civil Service people that hold how much you paid for your education, what kind of car you drive and how big your house is than any other group I have worked with or been around in my entire life! It is definitely a different "class" of people and they will remind you of it. "Contracting Scum" is just an example.

Second, Hollywood is not a good indicator about society or just about anything else. It is a business that so far has made it under Obama's corporate radar. Evidently, producing artistic works is more important to this presidency than producing durable goods. And, Hollywood will have to deal with the corporate caps on salaries as well as actors not making their millions of dollars. I find it funny that some of these actors have been pushing for societal solutions but are unwilling to take a pay cut. Oh well, it is Hollywood.

When cast systems and racism are no longer acceptable forms of discrimination there is not much else for the "I'm better than just about everyone else" or the "I'm special because of ..." crowd to distinguish themselves from everyone else.



zer0netgain
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16 Jun 2009, 12:09 pm

Zeno, I'll try to reply to your views in as organized a fashion as I can manage.

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Ever since Lehman collapsed, I have found myself increasingly disenchanted by the over consuming spend more than you make American way of life.


Ultimately, every American must take responsibility for their financial choices, and as a nation, we must do it on a collective level as well.

However, you need to understand that there is a mountain of social conditioning (brainwashing, if you like) that is foisted upon every American to tell them what values they should embrace and what values they should reject. Much of the irresponsible consumerism in America is the product of these programs (which use very advanced insight on how to manipulate the human psyche for economic gain) being employed.

The average American usually has no clue how "programmed" they are until they make the choice to "unplug" from the system and start learning what's really going on "behind the veil."

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Yesterday I watched Hangover.... [snip]


Please....don't compare America to a low grade movie that Hollywood cranks out just to make a fast buck. I find many movies to be pure drivel not worth the money to rent when it comes out on DVD. My parents and other people I know who are NTs feel likewise. Such entertainment caters to the lowest common denominator of society. Sadly, they are growing in number.

But such is how you set up a nation to fall from power.

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What will the world look like when U.S.A is no longer number one? I spend my life studying Chinese companies and do not wish to see the days when it is China that reigns supreme.


It will be an ugly world. For all of America's faults, it offered the hope that hard work and ingenuity could bring a prosperous life, and it worked for over 200 years with any number of people, not just the nobility, the wealthy, the powerful. Very few nations outside of America offered anything close, and it is why masses fought to come here and build their dreams.

We were doing something right...in spite of our flaws. Most nations (like China) reject the things that empower individuals. They only embrace the things that can be exploited to maximize dictatorial state power.



zer0netgain
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16 Jun 2009, 12:22 pm

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No, it is Americans who have succeeded in destroying America. There is a new film out (Food Inc.) that seeks to blame the food industry for the obesity epidemic and the unhappiness that comes with being fat which is sweeping across America, but consuming meat and high fructose corn syrup is a choice that people make. You can always eat grains and vegetables if you want to; saving money in the process and living a healthier lifestyle to boot. Blaming corporations, Hollywood or the government is a cop out. Americans can choose to eat well and eat healthy just like they can also choose to spend less, save more, and actually contribute to the welfare of the world’s environment by only consuming what they need. But this is not what Americans want.


Zeno, you are correct in part, but you miss much. First, is is not cheaper to eat healthy. Trust me, I know. You can get lots of food that will slowly poison you for next to nothing. Anything healthy costs much more. More so, they have proven that many popular foods have additives that actually makes the body crave more of it.

You can say smoking is a choice and anyone can quit, but nicotine addiction is not only real, but they proved that the tobacco industry pumped up the nicotine content to help get people addicted and keep them addicted.

You can believe it or reject it, but a relatively small handful of people make policy decisions which ultimately "program" the masses to act according to what they think is best (for themselves). Individuals can choose, but they must first have their mind freed from the programming they've been wired with for most all of their lives.

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The Chinese on the other hand have made tremendous sacrifices to get to where they are today. The Chinese staple is rice which is usually accompanied by vegetables and a little meat. Dairy products are a new thing and after the recent poisoning scare, likely to become something of an exotic treat. Whilst the Chinese waistline will grow as they get wealthier, the sort of morbid obesity that is causing a public nightmare in the United States is not likely to take root in China if other more developed Asian countries like Korea, Japan and Taiwan are examined.


I disagree 100%. When the Chinese government realizes that keeping people pumped up on junk food and lobotomized with mindless television and movies, they will do to their own people what a handful of people decided was best to pacify the average American. While our rights are being taken away, they keep people busy with mindless entertainment and tasty treats. When the troops with guns come, the average person will be too sick and fat to offer resistance.

Quote:
Despite the filth and grime of Chinese cities, the average Chinese actually contributes far less to the global strain on natural resources because they tend to be very careful about what they consume. The pollution in China is a result of Western countries exporting their dirty industries to China and thus keeping their own home environments clean.


Sadly, you are wrong. Their filth is the result of their own government choosing to ALLOW these issues. It was only when the air became too toxic to breathe that China started imposing any environmental standards for their own country. As China becomes more industrialized, they will pollute more than the entire western world ever did because they are building from the ground up without modern technologies that could limit how much pollution they generate.

Quote:
I just wished that America would wake up and learn that individual responsibility cannot be avoided. There can be no meaning to a life, however materially sufficient or luxurious it may be, if you do not earn it.


Sadly true. But raise a few generations to have things easy and don't be shocked by the results it produces.



zer0netgain
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16 Jun 2009, 12:25 pm

Zeno wrote:
As Lehman fell so a presidential election was lost and won. Troops are being withdrawn in Iraq as we speak and a mindless war is broadened in Afghanistan and expanded into Pakistan. The Chinese finally found the courage to tell Uncle Sam to go f**k himself to the cheers of a world happy to see the imperialist bully get told off by a power whose financial clout debt ridden Americans cannot ignore. Lehman’s collapse is a world historic event and yet 9 months on it feels as if no one really cares. They investigated Bear Stearns, they legislated against AIG, there is a congressional query into Bank of America’s acquisition of Merrill Lynch; but where is the much needed investigation into the collapse of Lehman Brothers?

I believe that they will not investigate Lehman because if they do it will result in a scandal that will make Watergate look like an innocent daffodil. The same hand which triggered the Asian financial crisis pulled the chord in this American credit crunch. The panic and its effects are real, but the catalyst was entirely synthetic. Very serious crimes have been committed and the perpetrators are going to get away with it. And why not? If they waltzed away with their riches 10 years ago they sure can keep the spoils of power now.


You realize what I've been told and have been telling people for years.

The economic "crisis" was engineered. The super wealthy lost nothing. It was designed for political and economic ends.



monty
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16 Jun 2009, 2:07 pm

pakled wrote:
We may have invented the internet (DARPA), but it was a European who invented the WWW (and his name wasn't Gore...;)


Gore didn't claim to invent the internet - he did popularize the term "information superhighway" and was the first major politician to champion its funding. Vincent Cerf (who is widely credited as being the father of the internet) has spoken widely on Gore's contributions, and how they were distorted for partisan gain by Republicans.

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.asp



monty
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16 Jun 2009, 2:25 pm

zer0netgain wrote:
Zeno, you are correct in part, but you miss much. First, is is not cheaper to eat healthy. Trust me, I know. You can get lots of food that will slowly poison you for next to nothing. Anything healthy costs much more. More so, they have proven that many popular foods have additives that actually makes the body crave more of it.


Disagree. For the price of a fast food burger, I can eat a nice cutlet of lamb (which is typically grass-fed). For the price of a candy bar, I can buy a large handful of nuts. For the price of Gatorade or Red Bull, I can buy orange juice. Most people that eat unhealthy food buy significant amounts of processed foods that are not only poor nutrition, they are also expensive. If someone is so poor that they eat noodles for breakfast, lunch and dinner, then they probably would have to spend more to get good food. But price is not the main factor that traps people in unhealthy diets.

zer0netgain wrote:
Individuals can choose, but they must first have their mind freed from the programming they've been wired with for most all of their lives.


Agreed. But individual responsibility and discipline is important - my problem is not that I don't know better ... it is that I slip back into old patterns, initially on the theory of 'moderation' and eventually it becomes the path of least resistance.



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16 Jun 2009, 5:08 pm

zer0netgain wrote:

When the Chinese government realizes that keeping people pumped up on junk food and lobotomized with mindless television and movies, they will do to their own people what a handful of people decided was best to pacify the average American. While our rights are being taken away, they keep people busy with mindless entertainment and tasty treats.


Bread and circuses?



pakled
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16 Jun 2009, 9:42 pm

Soy Lo Mein is People!...;)

The big thing coming up is the BRIC (Brazil, Russia, India, and China), who are trying to set up an alternative to the West. Will the world be a Bric house in the future? stay tuned.