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See OP.
AS 44%  44%  [ 20 ]
NT 56%  56%  [ 25 ]
Total votes : 45

cyberscan
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02 Jul 2009, 7:58 pm

On this board, our NT people are a minority, and I sure don't want to offend them. I like having them around, at least most of them.


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NowhereWoman
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02 Jul 2009, 8:02 pm

cyberscan wrote:
On this board, our NT people are a minority, and I sure don't want to offend them. I like having them around, at least most of them.


Yeah...besides which, NT have their issues too.

I always feel trapped in the middle on this issue. I definitely don't hate NTs and at one time wanted to grow up to be one. :lol: (And spent literally years in secret intensive self-training to teach myself how to seem like one...most of the time.) OTOH, you know what may be hardest of all? Seeming NT...because then you're expected to be able to deal with everything an NT deals with.

Perhaps when we work on "passing", we actually paint ourselves into a corner.



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02 Jul 2009, 9:31 pm

NowhereWoman wrote:
cyberscan wrote:
On this board, our NT people are a minority, and I sure don't want to offend them. I like having them around, at least most of them.


Yeah...besides which, NT have their issues too.

I always feel trapped in the middle on this issue. I definitely don't hate NTs and at one time wanted to grow up to be one. :lol: (And spent literally years in secret intensive self-training to teach myself how to seem like one...most of the time.) OTOH, you know what may be hardest of all? Seeming NT...because then you're expected to be able to deal with everything an NT deals with.

Perhaps when we work on "passing", we actually paint ourselves into a corner.


I don't think of it as "passing" I think of it as making the effort to be a part of a larger community. There are way too many people with variations in upbringing, hormones and experiences, and way too many unique viewpoints for any NT or AS to be "typical". The amounts of SSRIs, antianxiety drugs, alcohol, marijuana, and other mood altering drugs used by a lot of NTs suggests that occasionally even the NTs need a little help adjusting.

People usually respond to the way other people interact with them. We're all seen as individuals until we start aligning ourselves with a group and defining ourselves as outsiders.



Callista
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02 Jul 2009, 10:04 pm

You don't have to act NT to communicate with NTs, you know. There's no need to "pass", really, if you can learn how to teach the people around you that your differences are not scary. The sort of NT who is not bigoted can easily be taught this sort of thing, especially since NTs are wired to want to connect, and if they have not excluded you from their circle entirely, would prefer to connect with you rather than not. If you can teach them what your connection style is--whatever it is, words probably if you are an Aspie, or visual, and probably less intense than most people's--then they can learn it, just like they can learn to connect between races or between cultures or age groups. You have been learning all your life to understand and communicate with people unlike yourself; why shouldn't they do some of the learning, too? After all, they are built for it. It isn't too much to ask.


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NowhereWoman
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02 Jul 2009, 10:11 pm

Callista wrote:
You don't have to act NT to communicate with NTs, you know. There's no need to "pass", really, if you can learn how to teach the people around you that your differences are not scary. The sort of NT who is not bigoted can easily be taught this sort of thing, especially since NTs are wired to want to connect, and if they have not excluded you from their circle entirely, would prefer to connect with you rather than not. If you can teach them what your connection style is--whatever it is, words probably if you are an Aspie, or visual, and probably less intense than most people's--then they can learn it, just like they can learn to connect between races or between cultures or age groups. You have been learning all your life to understand and communicate with people unlike yourself; why shouldn't they do some of the learning, too? After all, they are built for it. It isn't too much to ask.


I agree with some...disagree with some here. When you're school-age and you're getting beaten up (and me a girl!) for being "weird," there definitely, at the time, does seem to be a need. Trust me. One puny weakling girl v. two oversize angry apparent NTs every day getting off the bus, in the 70s when parents didn't "watch"...and if you "told," you'd not only get beaten worse the next day for "telling," but also by your parents for "being weird enough" to make people "mad at you"...there was a need.

Even today, under "watchful" school eyes, I've seen kids do things to other kids--even just emotional things--that are devastating but very, very cleverly done so the teacher doesn't know.

As an adult there's less "need" to be NT in order to hang out with NTs...but again...even many adults can be cliquish. As for the typically social (if there's such a thing) population being wired to communicate, yes, they're wired to communicate but also to receive certain responses and to weed out the "abnormal" in that way (to put it bluntly) so they can tell "danger" from lack of it, "friend" from foe, etc. So that's my explanation as to why some of us do see it as passing, and sometimes as painful. I don't blame NTs for this. NTs have as much learning to do as non-NTs. Maybe it's an evolution...it seems in the larger scheme of things, people do try harder to understand rather than judge each other.

But please don't feel poorly of people who taught ourselves to "act" as youngsters in order to get along, or who continue to do so because otherwise we almost definitely won't get that job ("Something just seemed 'off' about her, can't put my finger on it, let's just tell her it was filled internally...") or to get a date, or sustain a marriage or raise children. We all make do with what we have. :)



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02 Jul 2009, 10:26 pm

Never trust anyone who uses the phrase or word:

1. “balanced personality”

2. “soul”

People who cannot come up with a logical and concrete argument will resort to these words to obscure the truth.



discosizzle
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02 Jul 2009, 10:38 pm

Coadunate wrote:
Never trust anyone who uses the phrase or word:

1. “balanced personality”

2. “soul”

People who cannot come up with a logical and concrete argument will resort to these words to obscure the truth.



:?



Willard
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02 Jul 2009, 10:41 pm

ignisfatuus wrote:
agmoie wrote:
When you have been in the back of the bus for a few decades you won`t be so worried about offending NTs.


Exactly. Nowhere close to the amount of harm can come out of a minority disliking the majority, rather than vice versa. The majority has no true beef in this situation, other than we act "different".

There's too much water under the bridge for me to be doling out forgiveness and understanding anytime soon.

I'm not sure what all this hand wringing is lately around harmonious relations. The world doesn't work like that. I will try to fit in in order to deflect negative attention, but I will hate them every minute of the day for having to do so. That's not a blanket dislike either, as I have met understanding and caring individuals. They're just very rare. As for the rest, they could burn before my eyes and I wouldn't so much as blink.



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02 Jul 2009, 11:29 pm

WOW just wow some people believe in too much hating, at the gu who slanted herrorism for posted this and saying about not hating asnd saying "there is nothing better than to sick back with a drink and hate some NTs"

glad the worlds not in your hands. Most of my family are normal I don't hate them just don't understand them hatred is ignorance and ignorance is hatred simply put. Yu should not hate someone because they are different because thats just like racisism in a way



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03 Jul 2009, 12:55 am

SteveeVader wrote:
"there is nothing better than to sick back with a drink and hate some NTs"


I said that. It's easy to be angry, it's comfortable to assign blame, and it takes nearly no effort to hate. The only logic to hate is convenience. Otherwise what logic is there in blindly hating over 99% of the general population? When I think about the percentage of the overall NT population who have deliberately hurt me, I'm still several zeroes to the right of the decimal point.

People don't like things that are different. If you want someone else to change then you've got to be willing to make changes too. That's where effort comes in, and hatred requires no effort.

SteveeVader wrote:
hatred is ignorance


I agree with you and Henriksson, all I was saying in my original post was "hatred is the lazy way to approach a problem". Sorry if I was a bit roundabout in phrasing it that way. Henriksson was trying to make a point that taking "human" characteristics and selectively applying the negative traits to a particular group was hate-baiting, and he's absolutely right.



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03 Jul 2009, 11:22 am

I voted NT, because... it *does* actually ring truer for them than for Aspies. Unless I merely haven't met enough Aspies to be sure, or that's a general human trait which I happen to lack.

Although that could be applied by some people to AS, because I've been told things like that before.


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03 Jul 2009, 12:41 pm

I saw the post, it's about NTs. I'm really getting pissed off with some people on this site claiming that NTs are inferior, or that they are bad people etc, I think it's hypocritical to whinge and moan about the NTs not getting us and being ignorant and hating us, when some of you guys are doing the same thing to them. There are NTs that I like, there are some I don't like, and there are also AS peeps who I like and don't like. We are just as capable of being annoying arseholes as they are, no one is superior or inferior. Anyway there is no real obvious divide between aspies and NTs, it's a continium, which makes the us vs them crap even more pointless.

Why can't we all just get on maaaan, :flower:


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Demon-Chorus
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03 Jul 2009, 1:16 pm

TonyFremont wrote:
Seriously Henriksson, you're preaching to a small choir. It's too bad because you've got something that really needs to be heard.


What needs to be done should be done.

ignusfatuus wrote:
I will try to fit in in order to deflect negative attention, but I will hate them every minute of the day for having to do so. That's not a blanket dislike either, as I have met understanding and caring individuals


Why wear the "mask"? True pro-social change doesn't come from lying and deception and certainly not a hatred between a "difference" between "them" and "us" which does not exist. However I'm glad you've found good NTs, maybe it'll change your opinion on humanity eventually.

cyberscan wrote:
On this board, our NT people are a minority, and I sure don't want to offend them. I like having them around, at least most of them.


NTs are human as well, I see no reason to hate them, a middleground of understanding needs to be met. However this won't come from AS people bending over for NTs nor the reverse. NTs do not have all the answers and neither do ASers.

TonyFremont wrote:
There are way too many people with variations in upbringing, hormones and experiences, and way too many unique viewpoints for any NT or AS to be "typical".


Correct.

TonyFremont wrote:
The amounts of SSRIs, antianxiety drugs, alcohol, marijuana, and other mood altering drugs used by a lot of NTs suggests that occasionally even the NTs need a little help adjusting.


It's just one way of showing that there really is no difference between "them" and "us".

Callista wrote:
There's no need to "pass", really, if you can learn how to teach the people around you that your differences are not scary.


Quite correct.

Callista wrote:
since NTs are wired to want to connect,


AS people also want to connect, this forum and the feelings of loneliness and the desire for friendship that AS people experience prove this. There is no difference between "them and us".

TonyFremont wrote:
"hatred is the lazy way to approach a problem".


It is, but complete submission is also a lazy way to approach a problem, a middle ground is needed.

Magneto wrote:
I voted NT, because... it *does* actually ring truer for them than for Aspies.


I don't think so....

MONKEY wrote:
I saw the post, it's about NTs. I'm really getting pissed off with some people on this site claiming that NTs are inferior, or that they are bad people etc,


Hatred, chauvanism, ignorance, and absolutism are big walls that need to be smashed.


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alba
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03 Jul 2009, 2:54 pm

Demon-Chorus wrote:
TonyFremont wrote:
"hatred is the lazy way to approach a problem".

It is, but complete submission is also a lazy way to approach a problem, a middle ground is needed.


Agreed.
So tell me this....... What do you suggest for eliminating discrimination and persecution against aspies and auties? How do you propose we get up off the ground when we are so few and they are so many? What precisely are the effective strategies and techniques we arm ourselves with? When a million thoughtless NTs are standing on you, breaking your back and smashing your spirit...how do you propose we get up? Who's going to use a crowbar to pry them off so we can get up off the ground and walk upright with dignity and respect like the rest of the humans?


Do you think the gays were justified in demanding their rights? It was their hatred of oppression that delivered them from persecution. It was only their absolute uncompromising refusal to tolerate repression and unjust treatment-- that gave them the strength for insurrection and liberation. And the prize: Claiming their fair share of the economic pie. Where do you draw the line between hatred of oppression and hatred of the oppressor?

And what of the blacks who fought so hard against discrimination and segregation? Do you think they were mad? Hell yes they were mad!! ! You bet. They were fed up and they finally got to the point they weren't afraid to show it. They were willing to fight and die for their dignity and fair share of the economic pie. Do you think that was wrong? Should they have shown better judgment in tempering their hatred and resentment? Perhaps they should have. But, you know, autistics may not be able to temper anything about the way we think and feel. It might be possible for a few. But most of us are stuck with the way we are. With our self-involvement, special interests, meltdowns and monologues.

Surely you can't be advocating a continuance of cowering in fear and seclusion? Or totally giving up? Or taking our own lives? Or being coerced into accepting a cure?..a cure for something that is as much a part of us as the color of our skin? Are we not justified in feeling the same kind of resentment and hatred for the way we've been persecuted .... AND TO SUMMARILY THROW IT OFF OF US?? ...as did the gays and blacks.

Do you expect us to be mealy mouthed and wishy washy forever? How do you expect us to mobilize and DO SOMETHING [as opposed to whining and wringing our hands] about the injustices perpetrated against us???

***

No, to be clear, hatred is not the answer. But hatred for injustice and persecution IS the answer. It's always been the answer. And it's almost always about getting your share of the economic pie...as well as being treated equally, with respect for your worth and dignity. And if you're in the US, it is the reason for our country's existence. The flame throwers, the freedom fighters, the rebels who attended the Boston Tea Party.....they weren't singing Kumbaya and smoking dope to mellow out. They were filled with rage and hatred. They demanded independence and they got it.

How can you expect any less from us?

..sorry for the rant..



Last edited by alba on 03 Jul 2009, 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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03 Jul 2009, 3:03 pm

I know the post quoted so I can't vote, but it sounds about NTs to me because it talks about partial acceptance of reality, which sounds like criticism that's usually expressed about NTs.

Anyway, interesting thread.


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