afraid of my sister/thinking of moving back in with parents.

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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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13 Jul 2009, 12:22 pm

Hey, thanks Greentea :)
That's a nice compliment.



LisadieUberfrau
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13 Jul 2009, 1:20 pm

puzzle62 wrote:
First of all Crassus you are WRONG on many points, I know it must be hard for you to realize that other people are not always weaker than you!!. I am stronger willed than my NARCISSISTIC sister. It is obvious you live with a bunch of weaklings that walk on eggshells around your ego. I know for a fact that my sister is a narcissist and we are 46 & 47 years old so we've tried everything to be calm when confronting each other. I know you seem to know a lot and like to post your 2 cents worth whenever you can, but you are very wrong about this entire thing. You said you didn't see any evidence of narcissism, that is just your inexperience with it. I could tell right away that this was just like my sister, and I am not weak and was never bullied, I would beat the butt of anyone who ever contemplated bullying me!!. I understand you are intelligent and respect that, I respect you for that, but maybe you shouldn't tell us how great you are in every post. This poster has an issue that has nothing to do with you, Obviously, since you didn't recognize the clear narcissism.I hope there are no hard feelings, Crassus, because I do respect you, I enjoy you comments, But maybe this one time we should try to help the poster not just talk.



AGREED 100%

Rainbow's description of her sister, and Puzzle's subsequent description of her own, is dead-on for my sister as well. My response about my sister's narcissistic behavior, and Puzzle's response I assume as well, is based on OUR OWN EXPERIENCES concerning the topic in question. I have also talked with a female friend concerning this SAME behavior in her sister. They do not have AS so this type of experience may not be related in any way to AS at all. BUT our opinions and advice on this subject is STILL TRUE AND VALID.

Narcissism has become rampant in our society. Those of us that do not fall into this category are still trying very hard not to succumb to it ourselves. Those with AS are the ones, in my opinion, that will prevail. I recently read a book about this very topic. “The Narcissism Epidemic,” by psychologists Jean M. Twenge and W. Keith Campbell. They explore the rise of narcissism in American culture. Very good read.

Have you ever heard the saying that "no one can take advantage of you without your permission?" You sister is continuing to try to manipulate and control you because YOU LET HER. Not standing up for yourself is what gives her the "ok" to do it over and over again. Rainbow, at the very least, stand up for yourself and tell ANYONE that hurts you, "STOP!" Whether or not they admit it or apologize, standing up for yourself WILL give you validation and make yourself feel better. As long as you are CONCISE with your description of the behavior, and state it to them with CONVICTION, nothing they say will be able to negate the fact that their actions/words/etc caused you EMOTIONAL PAIN and DISTRESS. There will ALWAYS be people in your family, job, everywhere... trying to manipulate situations to suit only THEIR OWN NEEDS. The trick is to SEE it, stand up to them, and say "NOT ME, NO MORE".

The hard truth is that you cannot choose which family to be born into. You also cannot change another person unless they want to change. Rainbow, the very best advice I can give you is to CONCENTRATE ON YOURSELF. Once you change yourself, then the WAY others treat you automatically changes by default. You ARE worthy of being loved and treated kindly by EVERYONE, including family members. This planet has almost 7 billion on it now. Don't waste your life giving yourself to ones that do not deserve it. Seek out those goodhearted people and stay away from the emotional vampires that only suck you dry and leave you feeling sad. You DESERVE to be happy.



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13 Jul 2009, 1:51 pm

Why is it that workers of the Psyche and so many other people give this totally tried-and-false advice to communicate to the person who has proven to have no compassion, that it HURTS us? It's useless to tell them that at best. But it's dangerous at worst, because some (if not most) of these aggressors actually are MORE empowered when they hear you're hurt, weakened, and willing to take more while waiting for them to """""""change"""""".

I often think that Psyche-workers and their followers are there to make sure there's a portion of the population that's kept in the victim-role, to establish the power of the controllers ever more.

Don't waste your time and emotional energy trying to elicit the compassion of a controller. Be yourself, be independent, become stronger, be quietly effective, i.e. say NOTHING, and start distancing gradually. Remember: these people can't deal with anything unless they feel they're the ones in power, so let THEM draw their own conclusions as to what they should do to keep your friendship. Do not spoon-feed a controller, do not instruct them, do not make suggestions as to how to treat you. Take control of yourself and don't wait for them to give you back your own control over yourself out of compassion for your hurt feelings!! !!

People who tell you to "talk" to an aggressor and "tell them how it makes you feel" are lying, they KNOW that it doesn't work, they've tried it themselves. SHOW, DON'T TELL. Show the controller that they can't control you by having your own agenda and plans. Don't tell them ANYTHING.


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LisadieUberfrau
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13 Jul 2009, 4:13 pm

Greentea wrote:
People who tell you to "talk" to an aggressor and "tell them how it makes you feel" are lying, they KNOW that it doesn't work, they've tried it themselves. SHOW, DON'T TELL. Show the controller that they can't control you by having your own agenda and plans. Don't tell them ANYTHING.


Actually, I was NOT lying and I know that it DOES WORK based on MY OWN experiences. I'm not saying that you tell a co-worker or a stranger or someone else, that you don't know very well, that they "hurt" you. That would be folly. I'm talking about supposed "LOVED ones"... family members that probably DO love you, whatever their definition of love is. When I tell my sister that her words are "hurtful" and meant to be so "purposefully", and yet I also say, "I'm not putting up with your abuse any longer", and then I walk away, I am SHOWING her that SHE is the one at fault AND that I'm not going to put up with it. The point is that I, myself, am empowered. If she takes the words to heart, she will either apologize or her own conscience will get the best of her. If she dismisses what I said and does it again, then I will continue to remove myself from anything to do with her.

And, Greentea, you said, "Don't tell them anything?" Not saying anything to me indicates that now that person has become the ENABLER. By TELLING the person, you may be saying something to them that no one else has ever bothered to say before! I know that from my own EXPERIENCE too! My point was that if Rainbow's sister DOES LOVE HER, the honesty of the words may hit her and she just might think about it. Ya know why? Because sometimes people are ABUSIVE only FROM LEARNED BEHAVIOR. If they learned it from mom and dad or even from a bad babysitter, she may not even realize she's doing it. Sometimes, that mean, nasty person IS WHO THEY ARE, and sometimes it is not. THAT I KNOW FROM EXPERIENCE AS WELL. (A friend of mine is a sweet, kind person but learned behavior from his abusive father causes him to say terrible things sometimes. When I point it out, he apologizes and contemplates how to keep it from happening again. Even he is upset by it.)

And of course, this is just MY opinion, obviously not shared by all. But, while it is important for me to remove myself from being around bullies and abusers, I WILL tell them directly to their faces that they are in fact, a bully, a manipulator, etc. I HAVE found it effective when said with CONVICTION. It took my mother over 20 years to understand the hurtful things she said to me as a child, because I was different from the rest of the children. But TELLING her how hurtful she is EVERY TIME she does it.... over and over again... finally got through to her. She finally sees and feels regret and we are on the mend.

Rainbow is the only one who can determine what course of action is required that will ultimately benefit HERSELF the most. If she also wants to fix the poor relationship with the sister, that will take TALKING and TELLING HER how hurtful she is. Otherwise, this cycle will repeat and repeat. Only Rainbow will know what she can do. I am just giving her advice based on my own positive experiences.



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13 Jul 2009, 4:37 pm

You call 20 years of abuse a "positive experience"? 8O

And that was your own mother...


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13 Jul 2009, 5:23 pm

Greentea wrote:
You call 20 years of abuse a "positive experience"? 8O

And that was your own mother...



Are you saying a person can't learn from suffering how to overcome something?

Are you saying that something so impacting as one's parent can't show a person how to better live their life even if it's by learning what NOT to do in that life?

how about a little clarification?

Yes, parents and siblings can cause us paralyzing life long problems. But not everyone has to subscribe to it until they die. Having a revelation that you were abused for 20 years and then recognizing is at the VERY least to me, empowering.



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13 Jul 2009, 6:26 pm

Greentea wrote:
You call 20 years of abuse a "positive experience"? 8O

And that was your own mother...


So Greentea, what are you saying exactly? That overcoming a bad experience cannot be seen a good experience? On the contrary. Anyone that has lived through something difficult, went on to flourish, got past the pain, and grew as a human being, intelligently and emotionally, did in fact have a good experience. It took the bad experience for all that GROWTH to come about. A good experience wouldn't even be seen as "good", if it were not for the bad ones precipitating them.

And if you were reading properly, you would've seen that the exact quote was, "It took my mother over 20 years to understand the hurtful things she said to me as a child."

I said, it TOOK my mother 20 years to understand. I wasn't abused FOR 20 years.

She was verbally abusive because there was no such thing as Aspergers when I was growing up. The doctors told her I was a healthy, NORMAL child, who acted badly. So her verbal abuse became all the things she said to me, such as "why can't you be like the other children?" and "why do you always ruin everything?" I overcame that abuse LONG ago.

And yes it's a positive experience because we both have overcome our past problems with one another. But more importantly, we GREW has human beings. Some people, who DO NOT TALK about such things, take their shame, hatred and blame to the grave with them. Since you don't recommend TALKING to anyone about the hurtful things they do, I'm guessing you'll be one of those people.



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13 Jul 2009, 7:17 pm

You sound too aggressive and bitter to be one full of "positive experiences"". And you haven't yet proven me wrong, by the way.


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Crassus
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13 Jul 2009, 7:48 pm

Your pains are your salvations. You continue to be counseled to this painful path because we have seen how the refusal to confront and work through this pain is the cycle of abuse. The seeking out of abusive relations anew to repeat the cycle of exposing yourself to your weaknesses to try and convince yourself you are strong. Humans are not fully rational beings, they are irrational rationalizers with complex emotional biochemical processes attempting to derive proper responses to infinite variations of stimuli. Refusing to confront that which you are afraid of is the path of a dying soul. Exposing yourself to the risk of confrontation with that which you are afraid of is the path to the Little Good Death. All life is struggle, the difference between the path and the left and the path of the right is the method by which a human mind fools itself, only by finding your center, walking the middle road, do you return to an integral existence and increase the presence of Good in reality.

The evidence is in. Abusers abuse because they were in turn abused. the pattern is constantly reinforced into us and the process of throwing off the shackles of these patterns is a long hard painful path of confrontation with ones own self. It is by the ritual of externalizing this confrontation with an abuser that one learns how to internalize the positive lessons. Most people are not yet prepared to play out the confrontation with their own inner psyche without an external actor participating. Most people don't have the time to develop applied meditative techniques to unlock their mind, they are too busy trying to survive. So we attempt to offer them what help they are prepared to take.

Speak by not Speaking. Do by not Doing. All communication is manipulation and all actions are communications. Actions speak louder than words, because they Tell so much more. Acting out of fear and fleeing and cutting somebody off does not always result in the seeking out of a new abusive relationship to play out the cycle again. Most times it does. In therapy for many abusive relationships we intervene and isolate the victim, counsel them to a point where they are ready to confront their own inner turmoil, and then allow them to confront us as stand-ins for the aggressor via role playing. This often results in some growth, but takes far longer and has much more recidivation.


I would like to point out that within this very thread, the people counseling a confrontation, are being sought out and confronted by people who counsel flight. They see our counsel as calling them weak and seek us out as new potential abusers to play out the game with. We have seen this cycle a thousand thousand times. We participated in it more so before, we participate less so in it now. It is by the seeking out of my own abuses, those I act out and those acted out on me, that I become a better person. I identify them and understand why I participate in them and figure out how to walk the middle path.



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13 Jul 2009, 8:16 pm

Greentea wrote:
You sound too aggressive and bitter to be one full of "positive experiences"". And you haven't yet proven me wrong, by the way.


I would choose the word "Assertive" more than aggressive.

I can't understand why anyone needs to be proven right or wrong on this thread at all, is this not a discussion forum? Do you need to be right? Does she?

Each shares from their own experiences, nothing more.

In the case of the OP, she's to the point of just wanting to avoid her sister completely, that may or may not be the best course for her, but it's clear that there is something left that needs addressed, and people on this thread are sharing the ways that they have dealt with a similar situation.

that's all



Crassus
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13 Jul 2009, 10:06 pm

In the words of Carly Simon "You're so vain, I bet you think this song is about you. Don't you? Don't you?"

It's never about me. I can pretend it is, sometimes it is useful to pretend we are the masks we wear because we all enter into an agreement to play the roles we play so that things get done. Living without contention is living without vanity. The song is never about you, it is about You. nothing is about us individually, everything is about us all together. You can't value anything without valuing everything. If I say these things are important, I must act as if those things I did not say are not important. "I bet you think this is about you. It is about me, not you." Say that to yourself three times aloud.

People often misinterpret that lyric to mean something completely different than it actually is saying. The point is that blame is not important, there is no YOU DID THIS, there is only I choose to respond to stimuli in this manner. That is the only thing you have control over. I'm so vain I probably think this is about me. It is about us, together, being better tomorrow than we were yesterday. You confront the abuser because:

Wisdom wrote:
Wise people are not absorbed
in their own needs.
They take the needs of all people as their own.

They are good to the good.
But they are also good to those who are still absorbed in their own needs.

Why?
Because goodness is in the very nature
of the Great Integrity

Wise people trust
those who trust.
But they also trust those who do not trust.

Why?
Because trusting is in the very nature
of the Great Integrity.

Wise people merge with all others
rather than stand apart judgmentally.
In this way, all begin to open their ears and hearts,
more prepared to return to the innocence of childhood.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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13 Jul 2009, 11:03 pm

In my experience, one way to tell if someone is a bona fide control addict is to confront them. If they tell you that you are a whiner and to "stop whining" it means they are. That's been the standard response of every control freak I've ever encountered.
"You protest the way I treat you? Well, QUIT WHINING! You're just a whiner!"

If they listen to you and say something like, "I didn't know you felt that way. I will try not to say that in the future." It means there's hope



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14 Jul 2009, 3:32 am

Actions speak louder than words. With a controlling person, only actions speak.


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14 Jul 2009, 3:47 am

And the action of being able to stand in front of them and say "You have no power over me. You do these things that hurt me in the past and now they are like nothings to me, I am beyond your ability to see me now." and have it be true, is the loudest action of all. You don't have to actually verbalize it, but giving voice to your actions gives them more power. You don't actually have to go stand in front of them, but until you actually demonstrate you don't have to run away anymore you will question your self.

This isn't about the abuser. This is about how to empower ones own self into action. This is about how one takes responsibility for ones own life. This song aint about me and you, this song is about self respect. It is about proving to yourself that you were not scared, you were just choosing the path of non-aggression. You assert your self, take power over that self, and walk that self down a road that doesn't leave you open to future abuses.



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14 Jul 2009, 4:17 am

rainbow, since this is an important and sensitive issue for you, and due to the nature of this forum (as per the moderators, you're not allowed to seek support here, this forum is for general discussion of the topic only, in this case the topic of dealing with dominant siblings), maybe it'd be a good idea for you to start a thread on The Haven, so that people can support you during this journey, whichever way you decide to embark in it.


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15 Jul 2009, 1:29 am

Thanks guys! You all have good advice.
Here is my decisicion:
I am going to move back to southern California, though I'm not going to cut ties with my sister. I'm just going to keep myself at a further distance from her right now. I do realize that it's not safe to remain at any of the extremes, whether it has to do with being too passive or too dominating, and that standing up for one's self is a needed life skill to acquire. So, when the time feels right, I will try talking to her about the impact she has been having on me. I might also think of getting professional help if it seems like that's needed.
There are also other reasons for me to be in southern California. It might be more practical for me go there because Greater Los Angeles is a lot bigger than San Francisco, so there might be more job opportunities there. Also, half of the autism spectrum support groups and job placement services within the state are located in So Cal. With my current job, I wouldn't have enough money to buy food or socialize if it weren't for the money saved up in my checking account, and if it weren't for my parents' extra help. I don't even make enough money to pay all of my credit cards, insurance, and loans on my own anyway, and there's no way I can save up money for the future if I stay here.(Hopefully, down south they also have another place like Creativity Explored for people with disabilities to take art classes and sell their artwork.)
Besides, most of my friends are in southern California.