Eternal recurrence and the morality of fierce competition

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MikeH106
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25 Jul 2009, 6:41 am

In this thread, I'm going to try to be fair to all those whose behavior I've denounced thus far: sadists, bullies, people who make life unfair; arrogant, nerd-hating jocks, Happy Bunnies, neo-Nazi torturers, loser-hating cheerleaders, stupid people who aggressively follow herd mentality to an annoying extreme, pitiless heartbreakers, and Bible-thumping God-mongerers who threaten you with eternal damnation.

The chief fear in my life lately has been in the phrase 'eternal rebirth as only oneself.' This may be found a logically obscure concept, but let me explain what I mean. Suppose the world is reborn again and again for the rest of eternity, and further -- though this idea doesn't occur in the eternal recurrence of Hinduism -- that we are reborn not as other people but as only ourselves, so that we are all basically immortal and secure forever (or perhaps stuck forever) in our own particular identities. When I reached the age of 80 and died, I would become myself as a baby again, and relive my whole life, and so on, for all time to come.

Though I'd get to use cocaine over and over (at least a minor consolation), I must admit that 'eternal rebirth as only myself' is one of the most frightening concepts imaginable to me. Its possibility is one of the supreme elements of my objection to human cruelty. What if I am stuck being myself forever? What if I never find a girlfriend, and I'm stuck forever not knowing what it's like to be loved? A sort of Hell for an eternity, where I keep hearing this song over and over, and never find true fulfillment?

Now, I would love to find a way to refute this notion in favor of one in which I could appreciate the value of other people's lives. So what if Happy Bunnies bully me? Aren't they conscious? Shouldn't I at least feel assured that they get to feel some pleasure in life, that the world has a good reason to exist because other people get to feel this pleasure? Do I need to feel angry and resentful if I know that their feelings matter just as much as mine?

How can I achieve this level of sympathy if I am constantly worried of being eternally born as only myself, so that no one else's consciousness would ever become known to me? If I'm told (dare I say it) that I lack a Theory of Mind, that due to a neurological deficit I will never be able to comprehend the worth of others' happiness? It almost feels like intellectual terrorism. I don't want to be angry at everyone else's fun.

Here is an idea I've had in mind. If it turned out that I was eternally reborn as only myself, I would use the sheer weight of the impossibility of living anyone else's life to prove that only I was conscious. From that, it would follow that I deserve some kind of 'prize reward' (maybe it's cocaine, but maybe not) that would justify an eternity of being only me.

But how do you do that? How can I prove at all that other people's consciousness ought to matter to me as much as it mattered to them? How could I prove to myself that in all my misery, there is really a Heaven 'on the other side'?

I don't want to hear, "AS makes this impossible." Every AS criterion is opinionated, so f*** the diagnosis. ;) I just want to learn some appreciation for other people.


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Sand
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25 Jul 2009, 8:21 am

The human population of the world has increased tremendously over the life of the species. Where do these other people come from? The universe itself is eventually doomed by the second law so there is no eternity.

And, even if you were doomed for an eternal return, none of us can say they remember it. Who gives a damn?



Henriksson
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25 Jul 2009, 10:11 am

The world is destroyed and recreated every tenth of a second. It's just that nobody notices... :roll:


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skafather84
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25 Jul 2009, 10:16 am

Sand wrote:
The human population of the world has increased tremendously over the life of the species. Where do these other people come from? The universe itself is eventually doomed by the second law so there is no eternity.

And, even if you were doomed for an eternal return, none of us can say they remember it. Who gives a damn?



the second law (i'm assuming you're talking of thermodynamics) is crap. i'm nowhere near qualified to mathematically debate it but the implications of it are beyond absurd and shows the limited comprehension capabilities of most man.


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Sand
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25 Jul 2009, 10:37 am

skafather84 wrote:
Sand wrote:
The human population of the world has increased tremendously over the life of the species. Where do these other people come from? The universe itself is eventually doomed by the second law so there is no eternity.

And, even if you were doomed for an eternal return, none of us can say they remember it. Who gives a damn?



the second law (i'm assuming you're talking of thermodynamics) is crap. i'm nowhere near qualified to mathematically debate it but the implications of it are beyond absurd and shows the limited comprehension capabilities of most man.


All sorts of things being discovered in modern physics seem beyond absurdity. That's not much of a comment.



skafather84
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25 Jul 2009, 10:46 am

Sand wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Sand wrote:
The human population of the world has increased tremendously over the life of the species. Where do these other people come from? The universe itself is eventually doomed by the second law so there is no eternity.

And, even if you were doomed for an eternal return, none of us can say they remember it. Who gives a damn?



the second law (i'm assuming you're talking of thermodynamics) is crap. i'm nowhere near qualified to mathematically debate it but the implications of it are beyond absurd and shows the limited comprehension capabilities of most man.


All sorts of things being discovered in modern physics seem beyond absurdity. That's not much of a comment.


I'm fairly sure modern physics will end up drawing a line of termination for the second law....ie, it's a law that applies within certain macro situations but not beyond that.

Actually, a lot of the modern physics stuff seems mostly reasonable.


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Sand
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25 Jul 2009, 11:31 am

skafather84 wrote:
Sand wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Sand wrote:
The human population of the world has increased tremendously over the life of the species. Where do these other people come from? The universe itself is eventually doomed by the second law so there is no eternity.

And, even if you were doomed for an eternal return, none of us can say they remember it. Who gives a damn?



the second law (i'm assuming you're talking of thermodynamics) is crap. i'm nowhere near qualified to mathematically debate it but the implications of it are beyond absurd and shows the limited comprehension capabilities of most man.


All sorts of things being discovered in modern physics seem beyond absurdity. That's not much of a comment.


I'm fairly sure modern physics will end up drawing a line of termination for the second law....ie, it's a law that applies within certain macro situations but not beyond that.

Actually, a lot of the modern physics stuff seems mostly reasonable.


I'm afraid that if you are determined to deny the heat death of the universe declaring it crap is a rather weak argument and being sure in physics is a very tenuous stance.



skafather84
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25 Jul 2009, 11:36 am

Sand wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Sand wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Sand wrote:
The human population of the world has increased tremendously over the life of the species. Where do these other people come from? The universe itself is eventually doomed by the second law so there is no eternity.

And, even if you were doomed for an eternal return, none of us can say they remember it. Who gives a damn?



the second law (i'm assuming you're talking of thermodynamics) is crap. i'm nowhere near qualified to mathematically debate it but the implications of it are beyond absurd and shows the limited comprehension capabilities of most man.


All sorts of things being discovered in modern physics seem beyond absurdity. That's not much of a comment.


I'm fairly sure modern physics will end up drawing a line of termination for the second law....ie, it's a law that applies within certain macro situations but not beyond that.

Actually, a lot of the modern physics stuff seems mostly reasonable.


I'm afraid that if you are determined to deny the heat death of the universe declaring it crap is a rather weak argument and being sure in physics is a very tenuous stance.


Sorry...were you under the impression that I was looking to actually proof it away here? I thought I had just stated that I'm vastly under-qualified to do that but I know a crap idea when I see one.

But then again, I also disagree with the stance of a finite universe.


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Sand
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25 Jul 2009, 11:39 am

skafather84 wrote:
Sand wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Sand wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Sand wrote:
The human population of the world has increased tremendously over the life of the species. Where do these other people come from? The universe itself is eventually doomed by the second law so there is no eternity.

And, even if you were doomed for an eternal return, none of us can say they remember it. Who gives a damn?



the second law (i'm assuming you're talking of thermodynamics) is crap. i'm nowhere near qualified to mathematically debate it but the implications of it are beyond absurd and shows the limited comprehension capabilities of most man.


All sorts of things being discovered in modern physics seem beyond absurdity. That's not much of a comment.


I'm fairly sure modern physics will end up drawing a line of termination for the second law....ie, it's a law that applies within certain macro situations but not beyond that.

Actually, a lot of the modern physics stuff seems mostly reasonable.


I'm afraid that if you are determined to deny the heat death of the universe declaring it crap is a rather weak argument and being sure in physics is a very tenuous stance.


Sorry...were you under the impression that I was looking to actually proof it away here? I thought I had just stated that I'm vastly under-qualified to do that but I know a crap idea when I see one.

But then again, I also disagree with the stance of a finite universe.


And I can discern a projection of overconfidence when I see one.



skafather84
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25 Jul 2009, 11:43 am

Sand wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Sand wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Sand wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Sand wrote:
The human population of the world has increased tremendously over the life of the species. Where do these other people come from? The universe itself is eventually doomed by the second law so there is no eternity.

And, even if you were doomed for an eternal return, none of us can say they remember it. Who gives a damn?



the second law (i'm assuming you're talking of thermodynamics) is crap. i'm nowhere near qualified to mathematically debate it but the implications of it are beyond absurd and shows the limited comprehension capabilities of most man.


All sorts of things being discovered in modern physics seem beyond absurdity. That's not much of a comment.


I'm fairly sure modern physics will end up drawing a line of termination for the second law....ie, it's a law that applies within certain macro situations but not beyond that.

Actually, a lot of the modern physics stuff seems mostly reasonable.


I'm afraid that if you are determined to deny the heat death of the universe declaring it crap is a rather weak argument and being sure in physics is a very tenuous stance.


Sorry...were you under the impression that I was looking to actually proof it away here? I thought I had just stated that I'm vastly under-qualified to do that but I know a crap idea when I see one.

But then again, I also disagree with the stance of a finite universe.


And I can discern a projection of overconfidence when I see one.


The second law is one if there's ever been one.


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Wherever they burn books they will also, in the end, burn human beings. ~Heinrich Heine, Almansor, 1823

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Sand
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25 Jul 2009, 11:48 am

skafather84 wrote:
Sand wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Sand wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Sand wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Sand wrote:
The human population of the world has increased tremendously over the life of the species. Where do these other people come from? The universe itself is eventually doomed by the second law so there is no eternity.

And, even if you were doomed for an eternal return, none of us can say they remember it. Who gives a damn?



the second law (i'm assuming you're talking of thermodynamics) is crap. i'm nowhere near qualified to mathematically debate it but the implications of it are beyond absurd and shows the limited comprehension capabilities of most man.


All sorts of things being discovered in modern physics seem beyond absurdity. That's not much of a comment.


I'm fairly sure modern physics will end up drawing a line of termination for the second law....ie, it's a law that applies within certain macro situations but not beyond that.

Actually, a lot of the modern physics stuff seems mostly reasonable.


I'm afraid that if you are determined to deny the heat death of the universe declaring it crap is a rather weak argument and being sure in physics is a very tenuous stance.


Sorry...were you under the impression that I was looking to actually proof it away here? I thought I had just stated that I'm vastly under-qualified to do that but I know a crap idea when I see one.

But then again, I also disagree with the stance of a finite universe.


And I can discern a projection of overconfidence when I see one.


The second law is one if there's ever been one.


I wonder why all the dumb physicists couldn't figure that one out.



skafather84
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25 Jul 2009, 12:16 pm

Sand wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Sand wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Sand wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Sand wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Sand wrote:
The human population of the world has increased tremendously over the life of the species. Where do these other people come from? The universe itself is eventually doomed by the second law so there is no eternity.

And, even if you were doomed for an eternal return, none of us can say they remember it. Who gives a damn?



the second law (i'm assuming you're talking of thermodynamics) is crap. i'm nowhere near qualified to mathematically debate it but the implications of it are beyond absurd and shows the limited comprehension capabilities of most man.


All sorts of things being discovered in modern physics seem beyond absurdity. That's not much of a comment.


I'm fairly sure modern physics will end up drawing a line of termination for the second law....ie, it's a law that applies within certain macro situations but not beyond that.

Actually, a lot of the modern physics stuff seems mostly reasonable.


I'm afraid that if you are determined to deny the heat death of the universe declaring it crap is a rather weak argument and being sure in physics is a very tenuous stance.


Sorry...were you under the impression that I was looking to actually proof it away here? I thought I had just stated that I'm vastly under-qualified to do that but I know a crap idea when I see one.

But then again, I also disagree with the stance of a finite universe.


And I can discern a projection of overconfidence when I see one.


The second law is one if there's ever been one.


I wonder why all the dumb physicists couldn't figure that one out.


everyone's gotta have their god.


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Wherever they burn books they will also, in the end, burn human beings. ~Heinrich Heine, Almansor, 1823

?I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs or insanity for everyone, but they've always worked for me.? - Hunter S. Thompson


Orwell
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25 Jul 2009, 12:23 pm

skafather84 wrote:
the second law (i'm assuming you're talking of thermodynamics) is crap. i'm nowhere near qualified to mathematically debate it but the implications of it are beyond absurd and shows the limited comprehension capabilities of most man.

All right, I'll bite. Do you have a link to someplace where I can see this debated, if you aren't willing to debate it? Do you know of any qualified physicists who share your viewpoint?


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Sand
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25 Jul 2009, 12:24 pm

skafather84 wrote:
Sand wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Sand wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Sand wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Sand wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Sand wrote:
The human population of the world has increased tremendously over the life of the species. Where do these other people come from? The universe itself is eventually doomed by the second law so there is no eternity.

And, even if you were doomed for an eternal return, none of us can say they remember it. Who gives a damn?



the second law (i'm assuming you're talking of thermodynamics) is crap. i'm nowhere near qualified to mathematically debate it but the implications of it are beyond absurd and shows the limited comprehension capabilities of most man.


All sorts of things being discovered in modern physics seem beyond absurdity. That's not much of a comment.


I'm fairly sure modern physics will end up drawing a line of termination for the second law....ie, it's a law that applies within certain macro situations but not beyond that.

Actually, a lot of the modern physics stuff seems mostly reasonable.


I'm afraid that if you are determined to deny the heat death of the universe declaring it crap is a rather weak argument and being sure in physics is a very tenuous stance.


Sorry...were you under the impression that I was looking to actually proof it away here? I thought I had just stated that I'm vastly under-qualified to do that but I know a crap idea when I see one.

But then again, I also disagree with the stance of a finite universe.


And I can discern a projection of overconfidence when I see one.


The second law is one if there's ever been one.


I wonder why all the dumb physicists couldn't figure that one out.


everyone's gotta have their god.


And you obviously have yours.



skafather84
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25 Jul 2009, 12:28 pm

Orwell wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
the second law (i'm assuming you're talking of thermodynamics) is crap. i'm nowhere near qualified to mathematically debate it but the implications of it are beyond absurd and shows the limited comprehension capabilities of most man.

All right, I'll bite. Do you have a link to someplace where I can see this debated, if you aren't willing to debate it? Do you know of any qualified physicists who share your viewpoint?


Of course I don't. Though I'm curious how the second law applies to pre-big bang conditions.


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Wherever they burn books they will also, in the end, burn human beings. ~Heinrich Heine, Almansor, 1823

?I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs or insanity for everyone, but they've always worked for me.? - Hunter S. Thompson


skafather84
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25 Jul 2009, 12:28 pm

Sand wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Sand wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Sand wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Sand wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Sand wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Sand wrote:
The human population of the world has increased tremendously over the life of the species. Where do these other people come from? The universe itself is eventually doomed by the second law so there is no eternity.

And, even if you were doomed for an eternal return, none of us can say they remember it. Who gives a damn?



the second law (i'm assuming you're talking of thermodynamics) is crap. i'm nowhere near qualified to mathematically debate it but the implications of it are beyond absurd and shows the limited comprehension capabilities of most man.


All sorts of things being discovered in modern physics seem beyond absurdity. That's not much of a comment.


I'm fairly sure modern physics will end up drawing a line of termination for the second law....ie, it's a law that applies within certain macro situations but not beyond that.

Actually, a lot of the modern physics stuff seems mostly reasonable.


I'm afraid that if you are determined to deny the heat death of the universe declaring it crap is a rather weak argument and being sure in physics is a very tenuous stance.


Sorry...were you under the impression that I was looking to actually proof it away here? I thought I had just stated that I'm vastly under-qualified to do that but I know a crap idea when I see one.

But then again, I also disagree with the stance of a finite universe.


And I can discern a projection of overconfidence when I see one.


The second law is one if there's ever been one.


I wonder why all the dumb physicists couldn't figure that one out.


everyone's gotta have their god.


And you obviously have yours.


Eris.


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Wherever they burn books they will also, in the end, burn human beings. ~Heinrich Heine, Almansor, 1823

?I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs or insanity for everyone, but they've always worked for me.? - Hunter S. Thompson