Attwood and Ari: Nobody wins everyone loses

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Referring to the podcast that dok originally spoke about, I found a full transcript on the web. Just so that everyone can make up their own minds, I will provide a link to the first half of the transcript. For the second half, you can follow a link on the page itself. Here it is:


http://sweetperdition.wordpress.com 2009/07/23
Transcript: Tony Attwood’s July 21 appearance on the AWA Podcast (Part 1 of 2)

By the way. I haven't seen anything new about the FAAAS issue since this interview took place. Does anyone know if Tony Atwood has spoken to FAAAS about the concerns raised by ASAN's campaign?

ASAN is like some branches of feminism who find some label related to relationships to hate and overdo voicing their opinion about it to everybody, the seed of it's activity is crazy angry ex'es and the like

I think you will find that any political movement will have some members motivated by hate. However, stereotyping all members by one characteristic is a mistake. Actually, ASAN is one of the more moderate Autistic groups and in my expereince, represents more diverse values than most.

I see nothing wrong with various points of view. Being rather dense at times I do need to clearly hear what is driving other people mad, I am not good a guessing.

Something needs to be done to seperate out the usual buyers remorse, which happens to all Neurologies, and bring up the real deal, how dealing with an autistic type affects the non-autistic, and they speak a lot of truth in their complaints, and a lot of bull.

The "Professionals" seem a bit confused, a little background in Psychology does not prepare one for what goes on between people who are living together. All Neurology aside, they can get kind of nuts.

Ordinary marriage and divorce gets messy. Claims of child molesting and tax evasion are almost standard tools, even for the unemployed with no children.

Breaking up is tramatic, and no one wants to face the question, "So why did you marry them?"

Other people do not want to hear any complaints about what they are, particularly if there is some truth to it. They claim rights, and mental pain and suffering, and tell everyone to shut up. Then they go and pay attention to the very people they want to go away.

If Attwood only listened to the Autistic side of the story, getting information from the socially clueless, he would not learn much. I say he is following the path I have been calling for, if you want to know, study adult outcomes. Mixed couples do go to his clinic, sometimes he helps, sometimes they work it out on their own, and sometimes it's splits, over, and that always leaves voids.

A good Engineer studies failure, learns as much as he can, so as to avoid it.

FAAAS is the Heart of Failure, with a dose of lingering bitterness. It would not be safe to ask why, since he is an obvious dork, lacks all social skill, and spend most of his time on special interests, and always has, Why did you marry him?

Sorting it out, what did they expect out of marrage? Was it because he was a Software Engineer, worked 80 hours a week, and made real good money? Were you sure you could change him into what you really wanted? It is not some condition he developed later, it was there from the start.

So to work a crowd of gold diggers, serial brides, and confused old children, Attwood does have to let them vent, and even say, Autistic people can be a problem to live with. I am, I live alone.

Part of this I think is a self centered contest, she picked a man without friends or social networks so he could focus entirely on her. When that did not work, he still focused on his Starwars Action Figure Collection, she felt he was cheating on her.

I think the study will add a lot to Attwood's knowledge base. It will help many people in relationship troubles, spare children from insane parents, and give him insight into the real mystery, how some relationships with an autist do work, everyone is happy, and it all works.

There are also Red Flag relationships to stay out of. Attwood will do good, if only to get another book out of it. At this stage we are collecting raw data, and he is collecting the most raw.

I agree with cc469, ASAN is like a branch of FAAAS. ASAN wishs to deny everyone from expressing their opinion, by doing the same themselves. At least FAAAS was involved, Attwood has been involved in sorting things out, but ASAN just complains about other people's lives.

ASAN is what I would expect from immature socially clueless inexperanced dorks who write Manefestos. They are helping FAAAS by being poster boys for a lack of relationship skills. It is true, they speak of what they know nothing personally. There is a lot more truth from FAAAS and relationship problems, than there is in ASAN speaking for anyone but themselves. They are not the Acorn of Autism. No one likes a Cry Baby.

So there are three points of view. Most NT's, for lack of another term, have a problem relating to Autists. Most do not marry them. Autists are a small minority, so are those who marry them, and that group is split into those who make it work, and those who don't. Normal marriage consulers would not know what to make of an Autist, or the person who would marry one.

That brings in Autism Professionals, who are not Autists. As my last fortune cookie said, Accident is the mother of invention. Due to the laws of mathematics, they cannot be wrong all the time, and they publish. Some daring souls like Attwood will look at both sides.

I can see the humor, Cassandra turned down a God, was gifted with knowing the truth, and was hauled off as the spoils of war. She had many a night to regret her actions.

My view is good will come of this, for the working relationships will also be studied.

As a mature adult I have had a few that I regret ending, and with more knowledge, perhaps they would have lasted, or I would have known to not get involved, or I would, knowing they were doomed, for better to have loved and lost. I tried, but not knowing autism was a factor, that other people are not like me, I could not reach them. I think some of them would say the same.

So there is something important to learn from both the failures and wins, and Attwood is in the middle. Since autists lack social skills, "It's True!", only their spouses who make it work can tell how, and their exes how not. The good part of autists is once they start doing something they continue, and awareness on both side can make it work out.

Attwood on Marriage, would make a good book, looking at all sides.

Many people here report a happy and long lasting marriage, it can work. That there is a book out saying we are the worst to marry is also good, it cuts down on future FAAAS membership.

To marry out of your race or religion can work, to marry out of your Neurology means moving to Wrong Planet forever.

Actually it's fine for different sides to express opinions. Inventor, tell me something. Does expressing one's opinion also include denying legal rights to the autistic family member? Women with AS who are abused their NT partners are likely not going to be believed because FAAAS members like Sheila Jennings Linehan has published articles in family law journals that state in family law, the NT partner must be believed despite any evidence to the contrary.

Tony Attwood did say that his approach to relationships was to get both partners to understand each other and this is the right approach. However, if you did your homework you would know that this is not what ASAN's. campaign was about about. The campaign came about because ASAN was being contacted by AS women in abusive relationships with NT's and who also believed that they might be discriminated against in family law courts because they had AS. This is because of the professional literature that have put out by Sheila Jennings Linehan and others.

In addition to the information Jono supplies, one of the main problems Tony has with the letter from ASAN is that we presume to state that his presence as a consultant for FAAAS ratifies that organization.

While it is true that he has more influece on FAAAS from the inside, it is also true that when people see Tony's name on the site, he gives it credibility. Advertisers use this human frailty to great advantage when they enlist sports people and well known personalities to endorse products. There is no difference for organizations.

As a result of the ASAN campaign, Carol Griggs has modified her stated position on FAAAS. This responsible action shows that in fact ASAN has made some valid points and has sparked responsible discussion and a recognition that well known people do need to be mindful of the power of their ideas and opinions.

And before the Court came two parties, with very different views of the facts.
I do not think anyone writing a magazine article has the power to change the rules of Family Court, the Constitution, and Attwood himself has said the autistic are mostly good spouses and parents.

There is a guy in California who hires out as an Expert Witness, who for a fee will claim that a murder is Aspergers, and not fully responsable for his actions. It does beat getting the chair, and life might be in a private mental hospital. He too publishes articles, which are ads for his service.

As I recall he has a Doctorate in Psychitry from UCLA and taught there.

He has not changed the Courts or the Laws, and even on WP, when Aspergers is used as a defense, the verdict is guilty as charged. The last one listed something on Craigs List, then shot a young woman in the back who came to look at it, then dumped the body and cleaned up, guilty! The jury and Judge agreed, but they did let expert witnesses testify. Only because it could be an appeal issue.

As a Member of FAAAS Sheila Jennings Linehan can write articles calling for burning AS women at the stake, while it has not been done since 1799, in England, it was an effective way of dealing with millions. After that they were just chained to the wall in Bedlam.

I am sure Attwood would disagree, after all, those are customers.

If Sheila Jennings Lineham joined WP, should Alex resign?

There was a guy who was on the run from murder who joined WP a while back, asking about autism as a defense, he made a few posts. I do not see that connecting Alex or the other members to murder.

Some worthless twits in the news did try to make the connection, WP Member commits Murder! I am sure they got the tip from a member of Autism Speaks.

As far as I can tell, and I have been here since 7,000, Alex's view and politics comes down to, listen to the voices of the autistic.

Attwood does listen, and has published many books and articles which I find supportive.

That one person, who does sound like an expert witness looking for work, has published one article claiming that all autists are evil, and who has joined FAAAS, is what she is.

I do not know the details, does she have an autistic ex? There are hardly enough autists to make a Practice of their relationships. She can say the NT partner must be believed despite evidence to he contrary, but no Judge would believe her.

Family Court is before a Judge, with years of viewing people, and it is rigged in favor of the woman. In almost all cases she gets the children and the house, and proving she is an unfit mother takes video.

So I have no beef about going after an expert witness, any lawyer would match that with another, like Attwood. I do not see it as a reason to attack people who already feel they are damaged goods because of autists. FAAAS has a point of view, is a support group, and they vent.

I happen to think there is some truth to it, and I could have been better, if I knew what was going on.

There is more there than the vaccine or metals people, and Attwood is right to study the situation, for autists are rare, and those who have married them, rarer.

ASAN's idea that they should make the rules about who can talk to who, that only people who agree with them should gain their permission to speak, is pure Bull.

There are strongly held views all around, and each has a reason why. ASAN is following the model of some Blacks, Homosexuals, Jews, Islamics, that no one else can have an opinion about us, we will tell you what to think.

I ride a motorcycle, I do not like bikers, I pass for white, but do not like whites, and here on WP, I am not an Autist Gang Member, for in Autism, logic and facts overrule all social connections, that is, if we had any.

I find ASAN to be childish and very NT. Forming gangs is not an autistic passtime.

Attwood is like Joe Friday, "The facts Mam, just the facts."

That he would wade into a hell of venting women to learn about our relationships makes him a hero.

If he follows up his clients who have been sent to jail for mass murder, I do not think he is supporting crime, just learning what went wrong.

ASAN does not have the Degrees, background, track record, and has not published books that have helped millions. They just seek attention through attacking those who do, and those that have helped.

ASAN claims to be doing this because of being contacted by women who thought they might be discriminated against in family law because they had AS? Because of one magazine article?

The simple answer is they will not be, for Judges do not read such articles, and make up their own minds about the mental compatence of the parties before them. If in doubt they turn to a Professional, not to a magazine article.

It does seem they only used the article, her membership in FAAAS, to launch an attack on Attwood.

There was also a recent attack on Temple Grandin here, which sounded the same.

Between them they have created the modern vision of Autism, which is much better than the old model.

ASAN is nothing but an attempt to applying Single Issue Identity Politics to a diverse and growing community.

What we have in common is what we do not have in common with NTs, and after that, we are all as different as snowflakes, no two alike.

I know of no cases where the court has upheld autism as a defense, or discriminated because of it. Until there are such facts, attacking the leading reserchers in the field for who and what they study is just attention seeking, and it undermines our position, making all of us seem like whining cry babies.

We have enough image problem without ASAN.

Alex is providing an exellent service but he is not a world renowned professional in the Autism field. He is not a consultant on a site with a presence which for many people, endorses the quality of the views promoted by the site. He makes no claims such as:
"Our goal is to educate the public to the existence of Asperger's Syndrome in the ADULT population "
or
"Neuro-typical spouses have most of the answers to the questions being asked about adult Asperger's Syndrome individuals' lifestyles, behaviors."

It is a totally different concept. If, however, WP articles were only posted with the approval of Alex or a management group and his presence as a world authoritiy on Asperger Syndrome gave her opinions the kind of credibility that can influence the lives of other people, there would definitely be a problem. In my opinion, a satisfactory alternative, in the interests of freedom of speech would be to post information which demonstrates alternative opinions. FAAAS does not do that.

It seems that there is doubt that these opinions are influential. In Australia, the opinions of Judy Singer, who shares Jennings.Griggs perspective, have been influential in custody cases. Her views have been aired nationally. She is influential in Disability Services in New South Wales and she runs a world wide partner support group which adds to her credibility.

I think if you take a look at the ASAN site, you will see that there are a variety of issues being addressed, not just one. I regularly recieve updates about many issues relating to autism. Some I follow up independently and some I leave to others. Many other members are the same. I would not have joined if there was no place for independent action or thought.

They have a point of view, they post it. No one adds all other views for freedom of speech, if you have a view, which I have not heard, get your own soap box, and I doubt you will include the views of others in your rant.

World renownd Professional? Attwood's highest rank was Associate Professor, a teacher who turned to writing. He is a writer of popular fiction, exploring the autistic world, which is very small and a subject of interest. His books are all targeted at sectors of the market, and now he is researching relationships.

My issue has been, the study of ADULT outcomes is the only way, as children change, but Adults are here for the long term, have a different presentation, and as a pre dx person, I well know the damage not knowing can cause.

The only study has been the spouses who live with them, you may not like thier non professional views, but that is where all the data is. A questionaire and a half hour clinic visit will miss lots, which a person living with the subject will notice.

Is there a reaction to long term exposure? YES, and mostly it is not a good one.

Singer, Jennings, Griggs, also lived through the pre dx era, but with an autist, and just as it opened my eyes to find WP, learning of Aspergers also shed light on their lives. Trying to make it work, trying to meet half way, with someone from Wrong Planet, leaves you floating in space.

We are having problems defining autism, as Temple said, an Anthropoligist from Mars, all of the same reactions happen to an Anthropoligist from Earth.

From the NT spouse point of view, they know hundreds of people who they can relate to and understand, and then there is the one they are married to. That brings up the contrast every day.

I never met anyone I could relate to till I joined WP, people were strange, but they all were, and I thought it was the same for everyone else.

I support their point of view. Which is worse, us, one alien living with a planet of hairless ground apes, or being one of the apes married to an alien?

I have a mental stability based on a consistant background, they are all insane. If all were like me, and I had a NT spouse, someone who due to neurological differances I could never connect with, I woud see them as the problem.

Some do consider autists to be disabled due to living with apes. They can be sane, intelligent, and still never fit in, cannot network, which impairs them, socially, economicaly, and causes long term stress.

The same must be true of NTs trying to function in an autist world.

As 1% of the population, autists are not the leading cause of divorce. The Courts will always rule that child custody will be for the best interests of the child. Most of the time it is the mother.

Discovering AS/HFA was a real shock to me. The same discovery also can explain a spouse, and have an equal impact.

Cassandra is now outdated, but it is telling the truth and not being believed. Suddenly with the Aspergers knowledge, they are being believed, and their decades of trying to make it work with an alien are explained.

How does it affect them? They were NT, with a normal projected path of development. Then they became aculturated by an alien, and set on a path for decades that was not NT or alien. Worse, they were still influenced by other NT, which leads to developing a dual mind.

They would wind up half Stockholm Syndrome, and half Reverse Cargo Cult.

They would suffer the same mental trama as someone brainwashed by a cult, normal relationships with family and friends would be disrupted. They might spend years selling flowers at the airport.

Fleeing the cult is not easy, for they have been programed to another way of being. A decade or two in the cult, just try to get YOUR LIFE back.

So I support their point of view, as is said often here, Asperger's explains my life, and it is just as valid if found in a spouse. I have a very narrow range of emotions, no social need, and it came as a shock to me. It must be much more of a shock to an NT, social, reads body language, eyes, wide emotional range, who has been trying to fake life in an AS world.

They are very much like that California girl that was kidnapped at twelve, had two children with her captor, accepted living in a tent in the back yard, was allowed to go out, and accepted her life, until one day at 28 she took her daughters and left, went to the police, knew well who she was, that she had been kidnapped, that it was not a normal state of affairs, but she stayed for sixteen years.

She could form a support group with the girl in Austria, grabbed at eight, but had freedom of the house, while he was off at work, went outside and washed the car, until one day she left, went to the police, and knew who she was, and that she had been kidnapped ten years before.

At least the one in Germany can say she was locked in a celler.

Cults, kidnaps, and marrying other neurologies all lead to adapting to the situation and trying to make it work. I am sure there are many cases where it did. Kidnaping child brides is still common in Mexico, and was very common in the past. In Mexico offering to marry the girl that has been kidnapped and raped is a defense that excuses the act, even if she refuses.

While these are all NT relationships, it does show the range which girls will adapt to. It is part of survival, for when everyone in the village was slaughtered, girls were the booty in loot and booty.

Even though the raiders had another language and culture, they had a common neurology, and girls will be girls in any culture.

To marry an Autist has another set of problems. For one, you cannot go to the police. Two, adapting does not work, due to brain wiring which cannot be changed. There is no physical abuse, a good living standard, but the minds do not mesh, and it is not as simple as joining in to pillage the next village.

It would be more like accepting an offer from a telepathic alien to take a ride in their saucer, or going offshore with a cute dolphin. While the act was entered into willingly, some range of adapting is possible, they will never learn the language, culture, or fit in.

It is much worse if they also return to the earth or beach and continue to associate with people like themselves, that they do understand, then return home every night for the evening squid hunt or serving the tablets from the food dispenser.

They will try to fit in, they will try to make their mate more like the ground livers, their children will show flippers and gray skin, and the stress will build.

Divorce is rather simple, most people do it, some often. That is not the problem. They have become aculturated to a world that is so rare it may as well be Mythological. Finding another mate can be a problem, even if you serve him the best live squid. Much of their normal development stopped when they married, the are out of sync with both worlds.

So I do see them as a special case to be dealt with through understanding.

They are the only Type Cases, their insights are very valuable.

Their support groups are the only thing they have. No one else could understand.

They are as valid as NT parents and siblings of autists.

Tony Attwood, for all the fame you give him, also sees them as having some of the answers.

These answers are as valuable to autists as they are to spouses. While the stress is common, not everyone divorces, and some of those get back together.

Some have another common human response, Kurtz after being left alone in Africa for years, in another culture alone and without support, finally rescued, leaving on a boat with his people, "Kill them, kill them all!" FAAAS seems a bunch of moderates to me.

ASAN attacks are not helping autists, spouses, or researchers.

ASAN is objecting to Science because they fear the results might say they are self centered brats who annoy people.

ASAN is a Political Group that is trying to gain power through Manefestos, Science is alien to them.

ASAN is against Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Association, and the Scientific Method.

science?

Judy Singer's mother was never diagnosed. We do not know if she was autistic or had another condition or both. Not very scientific to base a hypothesis which is being used as evidence in custody cases where parents are being denied the opportunity to parent based on shonky theories about autistic parenting. BTW in Australia, joint parenting is encouraged but some male parents are being denied this right as well as female parents.

and:

Couples in relationships where a partner is autistic may attend a clinic which supports people with autism.
Couples who attend an autism support clinic generally have dysfunctional relationships.
Couples where one partner is autistic are more likely to have dysfunctional relationships.

Not very scientific. If they were scientific there would be peer reviewed studies but there is not much money in conducting sound research. Much easier to write a book and join the lecture circuit.

"I know of no cases where the court has upheld autism as a defense,"

Tony Attwood has been a witness in some of these cases in Australia. The general result is therapy rather than punishment, depending on the circumstances of course. The police are becoming more aware of the issues around autism and when they do know the issues, they tend towards preventative measures rather than prosecution. In contrast, an increasing number of relationship breakups involve the autistic partner being denied parenting rights because of a perception publicised by Judy Singer. In Australia, shared parenting is common so this decision affects males and females.
Judges don't base their decisions on articles they happen to read. They base them on the evidence put before them. The fact is that in Australia, evidence that has no scientific basis is being used to influence family court decisions. That is simply wrong.

Aunty Jack, I'm a little bit curious about what you're saying about Judy Singer having influence in the Family Court. I live in the same city as Judy Singer, although our support work doesn't seem to have a lot of cross-over. She speaks for adult children of AS parents. I support partners & ex-partners. As far as I'm aware the Family Court is as ignorant of Asperger's Syndrome as anywhere else. I know the Children's Court is dangerously ignorant, and I mean from the point of view of children and parents affected by AS being misunderstood and disadvantaged. I am happy to stand corrected about the Family Court. I'd like to know about these cases you are referring to. The lawyers that were mentioned somewhere in this thread, as far as I am aware, did not follow through on the undertakings they made that got them advertisement on some support websites. I run ASPIA, and have been doing so for 6 years, and before that informally. I'm not aware of any Family Court case where Asperger's Syndrome has been able to be used or raised as an issue. Perhaps I just haven't had feedback. Perhaps I'm just ignorant. I have several in my support group who need a lawyer but I don't know any lawyers that I can refer partners to. They just have to find a lawyer the same as anyone else does.

One of my strongest desires is to promote understanding. I've repeated Tony Attwood's comment earlier that "Without an understanding of Asperger's Syndrome, people make a moral judgment.". This can happen so easily, in our homes, in our communities, within our Courts. For the sake of our children, understanding needs to spread. Not for the purpose of discrimination, but for the purpose of justice and workable solutions, and supported parenting, for both parents regardless of their neurology.

Private emails are welcome, if this is too controversial for the forum. I have recognised for a while that alienation between AS & NT does nothing to help any of us or our families for the future. Only promoting understanding, and forging a pathway of co-operation. Both of our communities need to look to each other for answers, instead of shouting it to whoever will hear us. No-one else knows what to do. We have to help ourselves.

There we go. I'm a bit "over the top" at the moment. My world's upside-down. All of us are dealing with personal stuff behind the scenes. Partner support is not as cut and dried as one partner having AS and one partner not. Sometimes both are AS. And the children. Some are AS, some are NT. We're all one community.

And all of us have a dream. For the sake of our children and the future, we have to find understanding and stop the alienation. I'm open to anything anyone on WP can offer me that can help me to help families better.

Carol Grigg, ASPIA

I can't give you names, but I can ask people if they are willing to email you. I do not support hate groups, but I do feel strongly that autistic parents should be treated the same as any other parents who cope or do not cope rather than generalize as Judy does in saying that we should be declared congenitally unable to parent. I know she has said that. She argued the point with me on another list. I discussed this with some representatives of WWDA at a meeting in Canberra. Their perspective was that this was equivalent to the stolen generation.

If professionals are serious about extending their understanding I also think that they should start looking at autistic/non autistic relationships that work in order to have a better understanding of the range of dynamics. I don't dismiss the experiences of spouses who are having a hard time. I know very well from my own experiences of a dysfunctional relationship that I withdraw. That is an example of how my expression of autism influences the way I deal with trauma. It is not helpful and perhaps with knowledge of autism, which I have now, I would be able to seek help sooner. I do know that in my case, this is not a characteristic of autistic functioning in relationships generally because in a mutually respectful relationship in which we communicate emotional differences in ways that accommodate my difficulties, I have no problems. Some people reading this would leap on that statement with glee and say that is evidence for all the statements they make about the difficulties relating to an autistic person. I ask, would people classify a relationship where one partner did not listen attentively or respond verbally as an unequal relationship if that partner was profoundly deaf? I don't think so. The situation is the same.
An example of court interventions that I know of is an autistic man and wife who divorced. Many aspects of the relationship were disastrous, including neglect by the mother who had drug and alcohol problems. She provided her lawyer with information from ASPIA about "Asperger Parenting" and this was used to influence the decision for her to become the custodial parent. Unfortunately her husband's difficulties with his presentation in court added fuel to the damning information from ASPIA. In reality, he was the parent who ensured that the children were fed, clothed, loved and attended school. This man was devastated and even more distraught when he realized that there was a strong likelihood that his children were being sexually abused by her new partner but because of his personal presentation due to autism and because of the evidence presented in court, it was years before he was suddenly awarded care of his children.

My feelings about FAAAS:

When I was first diagnosed I came online to get information about AS. One of the first sites I found was FAAAS. I became suicidal after reading the very negative perspective of the way we allegedly damage families. Fortunately one of my adult children checked out my bookmarks and was horrified at the information which did not reflect our family experience. I was also lucky enough to stumble onto Tony Lang's site. Tony had a very long and loving relationship which only ended when his partner contracted a serious disease and died and he inspired me to find out about broader view of relationships.

I know that FAAAS has modified the attitudes presented somewhat, just as ASPIA has. However if you look at it, the home page very much represents a deficit picture of autistic relationships rather than balancing information.

I know that autistic partnerships are more complex than simply non autistic/autistic. A close friend of mine tried to join ASPIA at a difficult time in her marriage (both partners were autistic) and was not allowed to become a member. A few weeks later, autistic partners were allowed to join provided they did not participate in discussion. That was so disempowering and damaging to my friend. I know that ASPIA has changed a great deal and I do not deny that there is a place for people who have experienced pain to express that pain and to be validated. I have done the same regarding the community attitudes I have faced in the past and present. I don't think that should happen at the expense of autistics though.

I also think that there is a responsibility to provide balanced information. I recognize that in this area, ASPIA is moving on in ways that FAAAS has not. There is still a way to go and part of that way is, in my opinion, to acknowledge that the experiences described, while valid and should be acknowledged, are anecdotal and do not represent a scientific or balanced representation of autistic relationships. We simply do not need the stigma of overgeneralization and stereotyping.

I hope you do not take my thoughts personally. I recognize that you are sincere in your efforts to build bridges and to consider the feelings of all parties. Not all of your associates are the same.

Aunty Jack, I appreciate your comments. Rather than taking anything personally, I tend to think about what someone is saying. It is good to get feedback. It's not that long since we were doing all this support work without any constructive input or feedback from people with AS. Now I am discovering so many people with AS who have explored AS for themselves and can be objective about the realities of mixed NT/AS relationships. I need input and suggestions from adults with AS who can be objective, because this will help those in our group who are still with AS partners who have not yet been willing to acknowledge their own AS or explore what this means in the relationship.

The key is in understanding. So many who come to our group are managing so much better at home just because they are learning about AS and are now able to view their relationship problems through the lens of understanding of AS. This gives them the clues they desperately need, new ideas to try, new approaches, compassion, forgiveness, mercy. But it still doesn't take away the frustration they feel that their AS partner won't consider their own negative contributions to the relationship conflict, or consider receiving professional guidance in relation to strategies that might improve communication and satisfaction for both. Some non-AS partners are quite trapped and unable to do anything because of the lack of co-operation from the AS partner, and I'm talking about men in our group with AS wives, not just women with AS husbands. This problem with lack of acknowledgement and co-operation is where much of the trouble lies in these relationships. And this is where frustration and anger and bitterness flare up into situations where legal action is pursued, and everyone ends up traumatised and enraged. And no-one comes away with any sense of justice, because they just feel like no-one understands or sees the real issues that go on behind closed doors. It seems to me that many adults with AS are living with anxieties going through the roof, and they're rather prickly in this state. The frustration that results within these marriages from not being able to objectively discuss, or even know what is going wrong between them, is diabolical. It's really damaging for both partners, and for the children.

And I come back to understanding. If society understood AS, then everyone would stop attacking people with AS and start recognising their struggles and that they need support to understand themselves and their families better. Sometimes intervention might be necessary, but then support could address the reasons why the AS people are getting over-anxious with every day stuff, and mediators could help interpret between partners, and parenting plans could be negotiated where parenting capacity can be measured, but that ensure children get to build positive relationships with both parents. It all sounds so ideal.

Getting back to ASPIA. We've only been incorporated and offering membership for four years. Membership is not a requirement in order to attend meetings. I don't have a recollection of denying anyone membership. If someone contacted me identifying as an adult with AS and they asked to join I would have explained that our group was established to provide a place for partners of adults with AS to find information and support, and that it would not be a constructive environment for them (!). I would typically refer AS people to one of the psychologists we have listed on our website, or an online AS support service also listed on our website, and this year I would refer them to one of the new support groups for adults with AS. If they identified as having AS but in a relationship with someone also with AS, I don't believe I would have turned them away. I talk to many people with AS who phone for information and guidance. We have one lady in our meetings who identifies as AS, but has a partner with much stronger traits. This lady is a really lovely person and contributes some really useful stuff for us, but she can share it from the perspective of being a partner rather than necessarily being someone with AS as well.

The situation you mention about the AS man is gut-wrenching and I feel a lot of grief that anything I have written could be used unjustly against someone, or put children at unnecessary risk. What I write was intended to do the opposite. The article on parenting was just written about 12 months ago, but the other one to do with abuse was written about 5 years ago, but just didn't seem to be noticed until this year. If I'd been writing that one now i would have taken a very different approach. Hindsight is good, but sometimes too late. I hope the things I write now can be used to promote understanding that will help families find the support they need for each family member. It has been helpful to be able to talk to some very insightful AS adults this year. It would be good if I had a panel of AS people like yourself who I could bounce situations off. Maybe we could even set up an event with a panel of AS men and women and a panel of NT's, who all have a good understanding of themselves and AS and NT relationship difficulties. Maybe in this context we could respectfully and responsibly grind out some ideas to help people in NT/AS marriages. I'm assuming you're reasonably local to Sydney?

What you say about the stolen generation is something I and my present partner have talked about a lot. I think there are a lot of children who've been separated from AS parents because the Court system has not recognised the family dynamics where AS is involved. Understanding could bring interventions of support, mediation and mentoring rather than removal of children. The trauma of separation, particularly for children who can't cope with change, is just unbearable to think about. One day another national apology might be necessary.

It is important though to remember that it is not just AS people being disadvantaged. Whole families are being disadvantaged by lack of knowledge of AS, both within the family and within the community and Court systems. I'd love to be part of agitating for change, but I would have to be able to represent the concerns of non-AS people as well as AS people. You can't really support one effectively without understanding and supporting the other.

Sorry I write so much. I'm not a very verbal person, and writing is how I can express my thoughts much better.

Hope we can keep talking about this stuff. Thank you for being so respectful in your reply.

Carol Grigg

aaaaaaaaaargghhhhhh

Apologies apologies and more apologies. Not ASPIA. It was ASPAR that rejected AS women with AS partners and it was information from ASPAR that was used against the man in NSW who lost access to his family. Actually, in recent conversations with some ASAN members, you have been recognized as a person who is willing to participate in respectful discussion.

I also get frustrated sometimes when people are in denial about Autism, but it is understandable. For a lot of adults, their path to dx is through their children. They find that their darling baby for whom they had so much hope is rejected and disliked and is failing miserably at life. Then comes the dx and the partner often says, "He is just like you". What are they saying? "You are objectionable, rude and impossible for people to like." They are also saying, even though they are not articulating the words, "You caused this." The idea that I was the cause of my son's difficulties was unbearable at first. I was lucky that he was an adult when we found out about Aspergers in me first and he was able to talk me through the ways that I had helped him and that apart from an adolescence complicated by an absent father (Autism was not to blame there) having a mother who understood his experiences really helped him. My son has grown to be a wonderful father who has chosen to parent one child well. He knows his abilities and his limitations which is more than many other adults in society. Anyway, I ramble. I think that many people are in denial because they feel that they are being blamed and accused. It is hard to acknowledge the limitations of AS, especially if nobody is showing you the gifts or even acknowledging that some of the most difficult aspects of autism can also be characteristics that allow a very rich experience of life. Its not about not wanting to admit Autism. It is about not being able to at that time. Perhaps with early dx, this anguish will become a thing of the past.

Another thing that really bothers me is the idea that AS traits cause poor parenting. I think this can happen and many choose not to parent or to form any kind of intimate relationships. I think for women, not pressuring them to become mothers will release many to understand that they can choose not to parent rather than fulfill the expectations of family and society. For others, I think that clinical depression and extreme anxiety cause extreme problems in relationships but this is not about autism, it is about mental health and structures already exist to support mental health problems in any parent. The structures just have to become more effective rather than demonizing specific groups.

I like the idea of a discussion panel. Unfortunately I live in a very isolated part of Tasmania, so I am not able to join the group.

Thank you Auntyjack for clearing up the mix-up. That was really good of you to do that. I feel relieved to know it wasn't us, but I'm certainly being a lot more cautious these days about everything I say and write, and what we say we can and can't offer to people.

I didn't think you were rambling. You said some really relevant things.

I think the time of realisation or diagnosis is big for everyone in a family. Parents tend to carry a lot of guilt anyway without then learning that they may be passing on traits of an ASD. But even then, no-one is to blame for the genes they carry. It's how we respond to our reality that matters. Once everyone can come to terms with what it all means, then everyone can get on with the job of managing life and raising the kids, with AS awareness. AS parents ideally should be able to provide the understanding and guidance that AS kids need, and be able to help the non-AS family members understand and cope better too.

Awareness will help everyone be a lot more realistic about their limitations and capabilities, and people can make choices about parenting instead of just conforming to societal expectations. We have many things to learn from people with AS, and one of these is about being an individual, being who you are and being proud of that, though of course, all of us are responsible to avoid violating the rights of others in an effort to pursue our own individuality and dreams. Hopefully we can all contribute to a more respectful and accommodating world as we gain more understanding.

Anyway, now I ramble. Thanks for returning to clear up the confusion.

Carol Grigg