Do you fear the desintegration of society as we know it?

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I'm certain you wouldn't put me off, Greentea. You strike me as a wise and tolerant woman. I often handle directness and honesty in everyday situations rather well, so it wouldn't wear me out at all to meet a couple of honest, blunt people now and then. I'm sure that goes for most NTs, too. However, if everybody spoke the honest, direct truth all the time, most NTs would be stressed and worn out for walking around anticipating negative feedback, and we would be sad and discouraged. We can't help feeling and reacting this way, just as most aspies can't help feeling that truth and honesty would be preferable.

To read the way Plato as it, Socrates kicked the asses of the Athenian jury that heard his case.

ruveyn

I understand what you mean, Jaydee. It puzzles me very much, though. I can understand why Aspies find white lies hard to deal with, what with our lack of social intuition for the unsaid. But I don't understand, for the life of me, what makes NTs more sensitive to unflattering honesty than it makes Aspies?????

I guess this is not something an NT or an Aspie can answer... I mean, how can we know why we are less or more sensitive to unflattering truth than someone else? It's an impossible question to answer, I guess...

I'd love to start a thread asking it, as I'm very curious, but I fear it'd draw the few hard-core NT bashers like bears to honey, and I'd hate to feel responsible for it. And I wouldn't want some people (such as our golden mods) to misunderstand that I'm provoking a fight on purpose and give me unwanted attention for it. It'd be unfair on me.

Some people tend to see only possible negative motivations in what one does, and accidentally overlook all the positive things you've been doing every day for years as proof that you don't mean harm.

There’s a difference between the wart on your nose (I can evade and pretend I don’t see it) and the social fictions that have allowed the blatant genocide of over a million people. Those lies are not holding society together. They are doing us nothing but harm, and they are destroying whole cultures elsewhere. Those are real people, who’s lives are just as valid as your’s. No, empire building at their expense is not acceptable.

Lies are always pointless, unless you feel personally threatened. I used to believe that the only person you ever really have to lie to is your mother. With everyone else, you can walk away.

You can always evade stupid questions, like “does this make me look fat?” I don’t remember ever being forced to answer such a stupid question from a friend. I have occasionally been baffled by fashion related questions, and my honest answer is usually along the lines of “You’re asking ME? What do I know?”

The only ones that you can’t evade are from aggressive, abusive people who deserve to be blown away by the truth. I won’t claim that I have always been brave enough to do so, particularly when the jerk in question has a gun and a badge, or is in a position to fire me. Still, the lies do not run so deep that I don’t know they are lies.

Well put Tahitiii

I've been mulling over a theory that humans have evolved to abstract a layer away from reality and then deal with that, instead of dealing in actual reality. And that the thought of losing that is terrifying because a malleable reality is so much more convenient.

That is, actual reality is hard and fixed -- you can't negotiate actual facts into being different. IOW, with "soft reality" you can change what's true (sort of like in the Matrix), and that's powerful.

I.e. In a perfect meritocracy there is only one narrow path to success. In a "dirty" system, OTOH, that allows lying, blackmail, character assasination, bullying, plagerism, etc there is a greater diversity of ways to get ahead.

So, when threatening the status quo (say, about white lies), I think people instinctually fear that they're going to lose power. Hard reality is just too terrifying if you've spent your whole life being able to bend 'reality' to your advantage. If you can bend the spoon, then maybe you too can be like Neo and be king. So if someone threatens to take away your spoon-bending ability... that's going to cause a bad reaction.

(Oh and it's not like I like this state of affairs; I guess I'm just mostly resigned to it. Sometimes it's even fun watching the world burn (though maybe that's sick).)

Um... No. For one thing, who asked for a perfect meritocrazy? How about if you're just happy to get by financially, have a decent life... Competition dictates that there must be winners and losers. What if I don't want to play that way? When you cooperate, "a rising tide floats all boats." Competition just makes everything difficult and unpleasant. It doesn't create more tangible wealth; it only wastes it. "Success" is subjective. You don't have to be irrational to have a difference of opinion or a preference.

I've been through phases when I'm resigned to the corruption and ugliness and stupidity. I've been going back & forth all my life. At the moment, I'm in a pissed off phase and I want to do something to challenge all the stupidity.

Funny that so many people don't see, or maybe see and deny, that change in society is a guaranteed given - just look how society now is certainly not what it was, oh, 300 years ago, and 1000 years before than, and 10,000 years before that.

Didn't equal rights and women voting come to this country's society through changes in society?

@Tahitiii

Well I'm writing that stuff from a completely amoral POV -- it's not that I like it or agree --> I find it horrfying, but it helps me make some sense of why the world is the way it is. I.e. why, as the OP put it, do people react violently when it's suggested there be less corruption (i.e. no white lies)? I mean, that makes no sense. My hypothesis is that it's because it reprensents a loss of "freedom" or power (or a perception of it) in a certain way. And maybe it also says something about why corrpuption exists. (not approving of corruption here, just trying to understand it)

Well yeah, I agree with all that. But there are people in the world who do want play "zero-sum game" as hard as they can, and their take on cooperationists is "fresh meat." Doesn't mean you have to join them, but one does have to be wary. I have my little bit of peace carved out in the world lately (one that few would call successful in the usual sense (another reason I avoid talking to anybody IRL)), but I'm content to sit in it and watch them fight & kill & fling sh** at each other; it can be fascinating to watch people do horrible things. What cognitive dissonance allows doing some clearly awful thing? What is the mental construct in which doing that makes sense? I guess it's like having an interest in serial killers; wanting to know what makes them tick.

Apple, your explanation makes perfect sense to me. Thank you!! ! It's going into my folder of memorable WP member quotes.

(I don't like your avatar, though. It annoys me not to see your face, and why would someone have an apple for a nose?)

Oh, well I was feeling phobic when I picked it out -- the idea was to represent being anonymous, but I guess I can see how the blocked face could be annoying. It's by a surrealist painter who says it's a self-portrait -- from that I assumed the artist was intentionally being absurd with the apple, but now I see on Wikipedia that there is an "explanation" of sorts --> Son of Man by Rene Magritte. (Personally, I still prefer the explanation that the artist was just being silly.)

Now I feel guilty that you removed your avatar Please don't be influenced by me! I'm going to read the interpretation in the link you provided now.

oh my, now that I read the interpretation of the painting, no wonder it annoyed me! I'm extremely curious and anything that is hidden in layers drives me crazy. I've always been like this, trying to peel the layers one by one. This connects with my question on this thread - I'm always curious as to what's lying under what people hide!

It's ok! You didn't "kill" my avatar. I've been thinking about changing it for a while, and you just reminded me about it (I didn't take what you said in a demoralizing way (my avatar didn't go off and hurt itself or anything ))

You awful awful avatar murderer!

Aww I love this one, it has a huge, sweet face to look at! Congrats on your new avatar, and thanks for not taking offense!

I will be living on the mountain across the valley from your mountain. I am looking forward to 12/21/2012. Being a mountain man has always been my true calling and that may be the day I finally get the chance.