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AuntyCC
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21 Aug 2009, 4:45 am

When I was a child my dad showed us children a game, I don't know how widely it is played, it was called "staring out". Two of us would sit facing each other and stare at each other's eyes. The one who looks away first loses. I rarely lost. I quickly learned a trick which was to stare at the pupil, or the iris, or the white of the eye. Most people look all over the eyes, flicking from one part to the other, and also at the edges, the lashes, the wrinkles.

It is only by looking all over the eyes, a little at the rest of the face, and also at the hands and occasionally the feet, that you get the full information about the person's feelings. And if the other person is watching your eyes, they know that. By staring at their eyes only, or not at all, it is as if you don't care what the other person thinks, or that you are frightened of them and cannot move your eyes at will.

Normal eye contact is you look at the person who is talking to you, watching their eyes, face and gestures. When you talk to them, the normal thing is to look down or into the distance while you are talking, only glancing back from time to time to check they are still interested (which you find out from whether they are looking at your eyes, face etc or are gazing into the distance themself). It's best not to face someone if you can avoid it, it's better to sit or stand beside them, looking the same way and turning your head to look when they are talking.

Edited to add, when you are having a long intense one-to-one conversation it seems polite to take turns at looking at each other the longest. This is also a way to learn how long is right to look at someone. You look at them and if they look away, look away too, and then looking back, when they look at you again look away. Then look back and hold their gaze until they look away.

This is all what I worked out when I was learning to make eye contact again. Now to be honest it does come natural, like reading, even though that was hard to learn too.



blastoff
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21 Aug 2009, 8:11 am

I stare people down.

When I was young, I couldn't make eye contact with anybody. I was told that this was bad; that I *had* to look at people. So I gradually did it. But apparently I don't know when / how to do it; I just "drill" people, or so I've been told.

I think one of the keys here is the "to regulate social interaction" bit. Oh yes, I can make eye contact. But it's something I've learned to do because I've been told to do it, and I don't think there's any regulating of social interaction going on at all. So apparently there's more to it than what I'm doing.



Marsian
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21 Aug 2009, 8:22 am

It's tricky. I never made eye-contact at all until I was 17.

Then when I found out that I should use it I used to do the stare (taking the definition literally I guess).

But now I just use less rather than more.

I reckon that making too much eye-contact is actually worse and more noticeable than making too little.

Another favourite trick that I use at work is to write whilst I'm speaking to people (about work) because then they know that I'm listening but I don't have to make eye-contact.

The only way to learn is to watch NTs when they talk to each other.

The secret to eye-contact is not about when to make it, but when to break it.

I have absolutely NO idea how you're supposed to use it to regulate social interaction though!

I just do it for the sake of it, so that people don't constantly pick up on the fact that I don't do it.

:roll:



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21 Aug 2009, 10:05 am

I have encountered another problem recently. If people are staring rudely or what I feel is inappropriate I will stare them down and most look away while a few Nts? end up staring me down. I suppose sometimes now I can bounce between little pathetic eye contact to overpowering.



Tantybi
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21 Aug 2009, 10:51 am

I go with a trick. It seems to work. I've never asked too many people, but the people I do don't notice that I don't make serious eye contact. I stare at the lips when they are talking. You can't do that if you are very close face to face or it will be considered flirting (like you are wanting to kiss or something), but if you keep a comfortable distance from the person you are speaking with, the lips work great (it's where the noise comes out right?). And, I tend to look away when they aren't talking, so I seem to have that average break of "eye contact" and reestablishment of it.


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masterdieff
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21 Aug 2009, 3:06 pm

Aimless wrote:
Actually the more I think about it I think the psychological discomfort is the realization that someone has entered the " bubble" of my detachment. I don't know if anyone else experiences this but I've always felt the disconnect with the rest of the world. I'm better than before but I'm so much more an observer than a participator that it's a shock to realize that someone is aware of me. I'm sure that sounds weird but it's what I do. :roll:


That sounds very similar to feelings I have on the subject. I think it might be tied to hyperlexia in childhood (talking too much, rambling on). After so many instances of "shut up, you're annoying me" you become used to the idea that nobody wants to acknowledge your existence.

When somebody goes against that adaptation, you generally feel incredibly anxious, unwilling to give in to your long-buried social aspirations. Or, you do give in, and end up reverting back to the rambler. Only now, in adulthood, it's so much worse. Because now people don't want to appear rude, so they just sit there and let you make an ass of yourself without even knowing.


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Aimless
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21 Aug 2009, 4:02 pm

masterdieff wrote:

[quote]Aimless wrote:
Actually the more I think about it I think the psychological discomfort is the realization that someone has entered the " bubble" of my detachment. I don't know if anyone else experiences this but I've always felt the disconnect with the rest of the world. I'm better than before but I'm so much more an observer than a participator that it's a shock to realize that someone is aware of me. I'm sure that sounds weird but it's what I do. :roll:


That sounds very similar to feelings I have on the subject. I think it might be tied to hyperlexia in childhood (talking too much, rambling on). After so many instances of "shut up, you're annoying me" you become used to the idea that nobody wants to acknowledge your existence.


I can relate to that but in a different way. I avoided being bullied (I think) by becoming unnoticeable. I got so I started to feel invisible and sometimes still feel shocked when I'm aware people can see me (metaphorically speaking).



NOBS
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21 Aug 2009, 6:47 pm

Wow!! !!

I have so many thoughts, and don't have the time to elucidate them all right now. Lets see; eye contact/mouth watching. I've been a mouth watcher my whole life and I reasoned that this was because I was reading lips so I could understand every word. This explains why I can routinely tell you exactly what someone said but rarely what they realy ment. There is a study where the eyes of autistics were vidio taped while watching movies and they determined that most of us do this. My thought when I read of this study was they could have just asked me and saved 100 grand.

Another thought I've had is that perhaps mute versus pedantary are just differant approaches to the same autistic problem of not being understood. Mutes might think nobody understands me so why bother beating my head against the wall to no avail, whereas pedants like myself might think that if I memorize the dictionary and say exactly what I mean then people will HAVE to understand me. Obviously my approach is not significantly more successful than mutes.



mac266
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22 Aug 2009, 11:51 am

Btt, I'm learning a lot from this thread.


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dadsgotas
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22 Aug 2009, 3:39 pm

I'm a salesman: I talk to strangers all day (it's okay: I wrote the script). After I'd read that people with AS watch mouths instead of eyes, I realised I was doing it. I'd never noticed, nor been aware that it was unusual.



Aimless
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22 Aug 2009, 3:51 pm

I do that too,now that I think about it. Is it related to CAPD?



Tantybi
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22 Aug 2009, 11:29 pm

dadsgotas wrote:
I'm a salesman: I talk to strangers all day (it's okay: I wrote the script). After I'd read that people with AS watch mouths instead of eyes, I realised I was doing it. I'd never noticed, nor been aware that it was unusual.


And you know, I don't think other people really notice it much either unless it gets sexual (like you want to kiss or something). I think they might when they want eye contact and can't get that connection, but sometimes I will make it for that second just because that's easy (like when you shake their hand or something). Maintaining it is difficult, but like I said, once you start getting into the conversation, I don't think they really seek that connection like when they first meet you. I do notice that when I'm having a bad day and just can't look at the person at all is when things get crazy and I seem to lose their trust in me. Fortunately though, the people i've done that to lately are people like my daughter's speech therapist who knows about Aspergers and it being in my family.


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23 Aug 2009, 1:08 am

I enjoy watching people's reactions to how I appear during conversation, often changing postures and degrees of eye contact to see what has the better results. I've learned that flickering over every part as the face and never ever crossing your arms in a "defensive" appearing manner is usually the best way to go. I'm now experimenting with distance to speaker, volume in voice, and number of times to blink. *sigh* It is an on going process...

I still "drill holes" with my eyes when into a topic during conversations. I scare people some times when I don't blink enough for them (must discover the scientific standard for blinks per minute). Apparently unlike many people here, I feel nothing when I stare directly into people's eyes. It's like staring at a wall really. I do way too much of that as it is...