Enlightenment

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It was a Bill Hicks quote. I find myself with no god other than myself and my perceptions and beliefs (or simply, myself). My will to manipulate my beliefs creates gods that you wish you could will to exist.

Bill Hicks, what a guy

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eA_XMaTYqSs[/youtube]

Good answer. I would agree those who have humanitarian lifestyles and philosophy could be considered as enlightened. Interesting, there seems to not be much knowledge required for this.

I would have expected you to present enlightenment as a spiritual rather than mental experience. You seem to be confirming my own doubts in my first post. The mental flashes which might feel like are some sort of epiphany are maybe not enlightenment at all.

What about the possibility that we exist in a double-entente between the spiritual and physical? In that sense, while up close the mechanics of life, neurochemistry, evolution, etc. seem extremely cut, dry, methodical, almost antithetical of spirituality - it could just be a problem of our own perception which in that case the spiritual isn't diminutive or hiding from us, more likely we're still just in an infantile state of development as a race and still have no concept of just how gargantuan reality is (just like the concept of God is like trying to contemplate a number raised to the hundred thousandth power, existence of deity may be a problem because we're not too much bigger than the atoms that comprise us on that scale).

Anyway I hope that didn't run completely off the path - I'd just recommend thinking about the accuracy of your thinking in a rather worldly sense, checking the ideas to see if they hold water, continuing to look for new ideas that may work better, and the further you move along your quest for accuracy the more you'll be able to tell what makes sense in terms of speculation on whether there is a human spirit, whether there is any sort of deity, or whether the universe perhaps did just originate unto itself and that we are nothing and will return to nothing with our last breaths.

I apologize for my stubborness, tech, but I am still having trouble understanding you. Are you saying you think it is both mental and spiritual? Your first response seemed to say, true mental enlightenment is impossible since no one can know it all. Now you seem to present the mental aspect as a quest for accuracy. So do you see mental enlightenment as a journey rather than a destination? You also might have to elaborate more on the spiritual aspect for me too, since you have included the notion of a diety. From my understanding the concept of enlightenment is from buddhism where a diety does not really factor into this goal, and although a journey is involved, it is more of a destination where one understands the truth and purpose of life. I would imagine this is also able to be transferred to a theistic understanding of enlightenment, but am not sure how that would work for some.

I think this is the first thread I've seen you start Claire. If you find that some information changes you in some way, moves you to become a better person in some way, makes you feel more connected to people, gives you a deeper understanding of things, etc. I'd say it's enlightening and that to me is more of a spiritual/esoteric type of knowledge.

How do you know if it is correct? It sure does feel like truth (sense of knowing not just believing) and the new knowledge would not cause harm if it is truly enlightening so you might as well chalk it up to enlightenment if that is the case.

Not my first, but yes, I can be a bit of a chicken about these things sometimes. I am relieved I have not had to walk away from this one with only party poop on my shoes. Also a good answer. I like that you see it as an individual spiritual experience gained by knowledge.

I guess while I'm impressed with many Buddhist values and methods of thought, I wouldn't think that we could know everything from this particular life or living on this planet about the core essence of reality. Its too big, its too vast, and this planet it too much a microcosm. Its not to say that humanity couldn't work its way through it in aggregate, just that it would take our society likely another 100,000 years or more of the best minds, as usual, chipping away at it. In this life I think we struggle to find our own meaning and part of the path, for those who have such an interest, is toward a more and more accurate view of reality and if you can really nail it - you can start looking toward accuracy of what's outside of our general sphere (meaning the spiritual rather than material). Its not to demean the search or quest for truth, its just a much larger project than one person's lifetime, just like everyone commenting and sharing thoughts in this forum has their own understandings which come from slogging through great historical thinkers who came long before them and likely had concepts or at least depth of detail that they would never have been able to pin down on their own - so in that sense we're borrowing from the memory of history just like many of us would like to think that if we really are able to find some of life's bigger answers that thinkers in the future may borrow from our own elucidations.

Regarding the question between deity vs. the Buddhist system that has a more generalized animist outlook on the spirit without deity, they're just two different hypotheses. Likely a lot of my own thoughts on this, if your looking at this and starting from a Buddhist viewpoint - won't work because they're not in the Buddhist format. Where I'm coming from I think is more of an abstract Gnostic Christian outlook that seems to explain that we're here to figure it out ourselves, through science, through whatever means we have available, and come to know God through our own collective experience, much like the Gnostics indicated that, just as likely in metaphor, that what came before the angels - the aeons of aeons, had to do the same thing we are because God revealing himself would have fried their circuitry; on the hierarchical scale an angel seeing an aeon would be like us seeing an angel. That might sound like hardcore mystical rubbish but I think a good point is made - we can observe God through reality, gain a better understanding of him, and the darkness we seem to be probing through is sheerly a matter of scale, just like having the entire universe or something of the like bring its head up and stare directly into our eyes is something we not only can comprehend; quite likely its not a survivable experience.

I am not really looking at this from a buddhist viewpoint, but rather stating I understand what it means to them. Although I would have to agree with you, in that claiming to know an ultimate and underlying truth and meaning of life does seem a bit far fetched. Or maybe that is just some sort of envy or something on my part, and someone so unenlightened as me simply cannot grasp the enlightened buddhist.

Anyway, back to square one with you...What is enlightenment?

Edit: in response to your edit...I think you believe it does not really exist, correct?

The problem with 'enlightenment' is that its this huge bellicose term that can mean practically anything to anyone based on what their sense of reality is. That question is online with 'what is freedom?', 'what is truth?', or to get a bit commercial 'what is cool?'. So you can see why I'm not answering it directly, not trying to keep enlightenment away from you , I'm just not sure that I can treat it with that much precision. The way I think of it myself when I hear enlightenment, its usually enlightenment in reference to a specific problem, or in the Western sense - 'the enlightenment' when we finally threw off the yoke of controlling organized religion and were able to move with more intellectual freedom (at least for a bit).



To think of it as a theist along the semitic path - I'd call ultimate enlightenment death. Its where you go down the tunnel, see the world that you've always known but were forced to forget in order to come here and live a life - possibly for the sake or living through a viewpoint or in such a void as to provide experiences that one could have had no other way. When your mind at that point gets reoriented to heaven, the plemora, or whatever a person would decide to call it, its kind of like life on this earth was the pipe full of DMT that was passed around the party, we were all dumb enough to hit it, and we'll just wake up with maybe a bit of a hangover but otherwise untouched. If it is a matter of there being perfect bliss on the outside and people just coming to places like this to learn more, choosing to live here for 80 or 90 years is the cosmic equivalent of what we do here when two guys decide to put their forearms together, drop a lit cigarette in between them, and see who pulls away first. I can't assure you that any of this is reality, I don't even know if I fully believe it but - its one of many possible impressions I have and yes, that last part could even be a bit cynical as in; in paradise if there is no pain and no suffering its very difficult for one to fully grow into an adult and perhaps the more straining of a life one lives the more its meant to sort of refine them like steel and give them perspective of what its like to see and experience real evil, real helplessness, real pain.

Pfff...wow, sorry about that - didn't mean to bloviate, sometimes that just happens on topics like this . Suffice to say that I think 'enlightenment' here on earth is 1) an altruistic pursuit to improve the general condition of man and 2) something we do for our own well-being while we're here as both part of self-actualizing and also we do it for our own confidence, so we aren't easily played, so were as in control of ourselves and our realities as possible. Strength is prized here and yes, wisdom is a form of strength.

It took a bit, but there you go. Interesting thoughts, as some can see themselves as truly enlightened by some of the more ugly things in life. You make a good point by questioning how one can be truly enlightened in an environment free of all suffering, making physical existence quite necessary...the meaning of life?...one could ponder, I am sure.

No need for apologies. I tend not to be much of a wordy girl myself, but do not mind others who are. Hmmm...wisdom. Carries much the same questions, does it not? But maybe another day.

The concept that one can grow in paradise seems to me to be a rather unusual one. In Christian religion at least I assumed that entering heaven was a culling process and the testing and maturation always took place in life.

Yeah, its a different theory. One more that testing in this life yes - is maturation - but not culling, rather the notion is put forward that we set a chart on what our lives will be, prefab them ahead of time, live them, for the sake of a certain skill set or the sake of certain experiences needed or wanted; in that sense yes, growth in heaven under that theory is marginal but still present as you'd still have ideas being shared probably in a more leisurely sense without survival being an issue. Assuredly I'm not at my final outlook on things, its one theory that I have competing in my mind with many others (yes, including the lack thereof).

-Nag Hamadi "Gospel of Thomas"

He who has known himself already comes to knowledge concerning the depth of All.
Book of Thomas The Contender

There is one more parable where he spoke of enlightenment as a cup and that those who feel filled are really lacking in knowledge and those who feel thirsty are filled. I don't have the book handy but maybe someone else here is familiar with that story in the Nag Hamadi.
The point is that those who crave enlightenment are more wise than those who feel like they do not have more to learn. So Claire, you seem to fit the bill for one who craves more enlightenment and being envious of those who are supposedly enlightened qualifies you as being the one who is actually more wise.

Thank you for your replies. I found it interesting, of all of the choices presented as possible answers in my original post, I seem to have gotten a response confirming each of them and even two I did not consider. Now I am really good and properly confused...awesome.

I am in agreement with that definition of enlightenment.