My Brother is calling me a racist for being Anti Zionist

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skafather84
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21 Sep 2009, 7:03 pm

JeremyNJ wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
JeremyNJ wrote:

You bring up 1948..and yes Deir Yassin was a massacre, no doubt...but you conveninatly ignore the fact that it was the Palestinians along with Egypt, Transjordan, and Syria declared WAR on Israel, and that the Palestinian forces committed massacres as well


Just a quick question:


Does anyone really think you could take a large patch of land, make it a new country for people of a religion different from the popular religion in the general area, import a large number of people from somewhere else and there NOT be war break out?


I'd love to see what would happen if we annexed off a large chunk of Idaho and Wyoming, gave it to the Muslims, and gave them autonomy.

I wonder how many White Christians would have a problem with that?



Well first off, the creation of Israel and its development were corollary to events going on in Europe...Jews had been making what is called ' Aliyah" to Israel since the 1880s...by the 1930s, about 550,000 Jews lived within the Galilee, the Sharon Plain ( where Tel Aviv is located) and along the road to Jerusalem....of course the Arab world was not going to recognize Israel, but Israel defended itself through its effective use of Haganah tactics they had learned through training with British WW II units and against Arab fedayeen attacks that went unchecked by the British Mandate authorities ( who ran the land until its transfer to the UN)...when the UN voted on partition for two seperate Jewish and Arab states, it angered the Arabs because they didnt want Jews or anyone else there. The British actually prevented many ships escaping from the Holocaust to land in whats called the Yishuv ( settlement) because they feared the Arab reaction and they wanted to restrict Jewish growth there...to those who think that the British helped establish Israel, run contrary to the words of their own leaders....the creation of Israel wasn't assisted Militarily by the US either..as Truman and Eisenhower put up arms embargoes against Israel...Israel had to buy its weapons through third party sources in Czechslovakia...so the idea that they were defenseless jews who were somehow transplanted to Israel for ulterior purposes is just not accurate....for the most part you had jews who had been living there since the early part of the 20th century, jews who fled Arab countries and Jews who escaped persecution in Europe ( where jews who went back were also murdered)....their is more to say on this..if you want a complete accurate history of Israel, if i were you i'd read " History of Israel from Zionism to our times"...its very lengthy about 1200 pages or so, but its worth it if you want to know the complexities of the situation and how outside world events shaped Israel.


I realize the movement started before the creation thereof. It's the only way it could have happened...you need to establish the settlements first.

It's all a big colonialist movement. The last, it seems.


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JeremyNJ
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21 Sep 2009, 7:41 pm

skafather84 wrote:
JeremyNJ wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
JeremyNJ wrote:

You bring up 1948..and yes Deir Yassin was a massacre, no doubt...but you conveninatly ignore the fact that it was the Palestinians along with Egypt, Transjordan, and Syria declared WAR on Israel, and that the Palestinian forces committed massacres as well


Just a quick question:


Does anyone really think you could take a large patch of land, make it a new country for people of a religion different from the popular religion in the general area, import a large number of people from somewhere else and there NOT be war break out?


I'd love to see what would happen if we annexed off a large chunk of Idaho and Wyoming, gave it to the Muslims, and gave them autonomy.

I wonder how many White Christians would have a problem with that?



Well first off, the creation of Israel and its development were corollary to events going on in Europe...Jews had been making what is called ' Aliyah" to Israel since the 1880s...by the 1930s, about 550,000 Jews lived within the Galilee, the Sharon Plain ( where Tel Aviv is located) and along the road to Jerusalem....of course the Arab world was not going to recognize Israel, but Israel defended itself through its effective use of Haganah tactics they had learned through training with British WW II units and against Arab fedayeen attacks that went unchecked by the British Mandate authorities ( who ran the land until its transfer to the UN)...when the UN voted on partition for two seperate Jewish and Arab states, it angered the Arabs because they didnt want Jews or anyone else there. The British actually prevented many ships escaping from the Holocaust to land in whats called the Yishuv ( settlement) because they feared the Arab reaction and they wanted to restrict Jewish growth there...to those who think that the British helped establish Israel, run contrary to the words of their own leaders....the creation of Israel wasn't assisted Militarily by the US either..as Truman and Eisenhower put up arms embargoes against Israel...Israel had to buy its weapons through third party sources in Czechslovakia...so the idea that they were defenseless jews who were somehow transplanted to Israel for ulterior purposes is just not accurate....for the most part you had jews who had been living there since the early part of the 20th century, jews who fled Arab countries and Jews who escaped persecution in Europe ( where jews who went back were also murdered)....their is more to say on this..if you want a complete accurate history of Israel, if i were you i'd read " History of Israel from Zionism to our times"...its very lengthy about 1200 pages or so, but its worth it if you want to know the complexities of the situation and how outside world events shaped Israel.


I realize the movement started before the creation thereof. It's the only way it could have happened...you need to establish the settlements first.

It's all a big colonialist movement. The last, it seems.




The problem you have with the term " Colonalism" when refering to it is that the British never intended for it to be a Jewish state or an Arab state when they took it over in 1919, after the Sykes-Picot agreement of 1918 set up the division of the Middle East between French/British imperial designs. Jews moved into the area, they had to buy the land legally from the Arab tenant farmer families such as the Nashisibis and the Husseinis through the land purchase corporation called the Jewish National Fund, set up in Jaffe by Dr. Ruppin. This is still the means of buying land. Colonalism is the use of the land for the parent country...the british mandate was a colonial ruled govt...but the subsequent govt that took its place in 1948, the State of Israel is not a colony since its not ruled by a parent country. Colonalism implies that the British transplanted entire sections of British underclasses to Palestine to turn it into a little Britain, like the United States was prior to the Revolutionary War. The Brits wanted the land because they needed it to protect the Suez Canal lifeline which directed their world trade between India and the UK. Every part of British defense strategy rested on how well to protect the trade routes between Britain and India...unfortunatly they had control over it at the same time as the disintergration of the Ottoman Empire in the wake of WW1..." The Sick Man of Europe"...Pan-Arab nationalism was taking a hold with newly formed Arab states and also Zionism as a political movement was taking shape in the Eastern European Shtetls/Ghettos/Pale of Settlement where Antisemitism was a fact of life and the only hope for survival was either to the U.S or to the shores of Palestine...



NEWater
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22 Sep 2009, 7:08 am

JeremyNJ wrote:
AspE wrote:
NEWater wrote:
You frankly, in my eyes do not deserve to breathe.

Which was exactly the attitude of Palestinians towards Jews at the time.

I said, "Zionism is based on ending the persecution of Jews that has occurred throughout history as a result of religious bigotry. That is a moral justification for unifying Jews under one nation."

The question was, "Is there moral justification for Zionism", not, "Was Independence achieved in a perfectly moral fashion?". There were certainly aspects of the actual civil war that were arguably not morally justifiable, but that does not mean Zionism wasn't morally justifiable.

There were sound strategic reasons for expelling all those Arabs, many of whom were simply following the instructions of their own leaders. If it hasn't been done, Israel would be still fighting insurgents within the country.


With that " You don't deserve to breathe" comment it confirms what i suspected all along...a traditional neo-nazi masking his intentions behind intellectual sounding prose to try to make his point seem scholarly and acceptable...its really disgusting what these goons will do for attention.


What a tremendously interesting accusation! :lol:

For the sake of establishing who and what I am, I'm an Asian dude. I just finished two years of wasting my life in the Singapore Armed Forces (which was set up in the 60s with the help of the IDF because the US of A didn't feel like it), and I could probably ratify my so-called 'counterterrorism credentials' by saying that I had to stomp through the bloody jungles of this island in search of Southeast Asia's version of bin Laden, Mas Selamat Kastari because he had the guile to escape from our detention facilities.

I am a Libertarian who has slightly left leanings, and just to pander to the gun-loving right-wingers, I had two consecutive Company Best Shot awards with my SAR-21 for the annual marksmanship tests. I love guns, despite living in a country that bans ownership of firearms. I'm always first to go to grab for my rifle, or whatever weapons the army throws my way when I go back for reservist training.

Happy now?

Just because someone doesn't agree with your religious-sponsored and -endorsed rape of sovereignty of nations (which I'm partial to refer to as the nations' virginities), and utter oppression of the original residents thereafter, doesn't mean that he's a closet neo-Nazi. In attempting to cop out by labelling me a neo-Nazi, you're again, invoking your sense of historical victimhood and point at your amuptee father and pleading, "Help me, please. Give me a handout. Let me keep nuclear weapons without signing the NPT. My father has no limbs and can't work, and neither can I work even though I have a perfectly healthy body and mind. I want to invade Lebanon whenever I can and not face any consequences, just like good ol' Rudy Guliani utters, 'Nine-Eleven' whenever his credibility is under attack."

As a Chinese guy, if I wanted to continue invoking my historical victimhood of "Boo hoo, you evil Brits raped my motherland with opium and foreigners colonised everything and dispersed the population. Boo hoo. The British colonised my country of birth and made everyone a 2nd class citizen then surrendered when they didn't feel like fighting the Japs. Boo hoo coward British.", I wouldn't have bothered to even talk to anyone outside my country.

Get over it. I already have, and am flourishing. I don't need to boost my street cred with bogus BA's and MA's and "Oh look lol I volunteered at IDF bases. I AM BADASS!"



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23 Sep 2009, 9:29 pm

Its true its stupid to call you racist because I dont hate isreal but they pulling some real major BS and the US needs to step back I understand wanting a jewish homeland after the atroscities commited by the european christians so they wanted to get has far from that has they could.But they should have found a way to live in harmony with the palestinians.


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ruveyn
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24 Sep 2009, 8:39 am

skafather84 wrote:

It's all a big colonialist movement. The last, it seems.


Irridentist, not colonialist.

ruveyn



cc469
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24 Sep 2009, 1:12 pm

The connotation of anti-zionist involves meaning which is 90% synonymous with antisemitic.

Yes it's convinient to say otherwise but you can't just make new terms thinking you avoid the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.

And yes jews acn be anti semtic just as women can by misogynistic welcome to this universe , aren't you posting on autism related forums?
There should be at least some criticism of language missing what it's meant to describe floating around here.


that being said I would respect your opinion to supporting nationalist agendas based de jure and de facto on making me country-less since I don't want to confront all the typical repetitive appeal to emotion arguments thrown at me from all directions by a majority crowd and waste time.

tl;dr anti-zionism overlaps by way more than 90% with antisemitism , It's your right to express the latter so much as I am concerned
as a source to my claims look at the achmadenijad saga culminating in the recent UN speeches, this guy built his international image on this fallacy.


edit - ran this thread and was shocked , your arguments are the same in form as thoose used by hardcore racists, who would have thought?
regarding the palestinian issue judging by the fact no such country existed in history and had no definite borders or nationales it was a problem of european colonialists (yes those fancy guys talking about human rights away from their home build from "black" imports from that era) and the arab world , I don't see why only israel has to dedicate it's land for the Palestinians if a lot of it's neighbors house a large population of them , refuge and not so I would really like to see them ask them for land and recognition. hmm wonder how that's going to happen.
so yeah it pretty much is that useful conflict worth mentioning. In reality it is a major pillar on which all dictatorships in the middle east stand (among others like oil and religion)

edit - I am kind of pissed off about this , I was running around youtube and other sites and I kow this community is predominantly left wing american/european but this has convinced me to shift my opinion from center to right wing and vote accordingly. I never belied this stuff was circulating outside radical groups.



skafather84
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24 Sep 2009, 1:33 pm

ruveyn wrote:
skafather84 wrote:

It's all a big colonialist movement. The last, it seems.


Irridentist, not colonialist.

ruveyn


"Irredentism (from Italian irredento, "unredeemed") is any position advocating annexation of territories administered by another state on the grounds of common ethnicity or prior historical possession; actual or alleged."


Eeked by with that alleged at the end.


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cc469
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26 Sep 2009, 8:48 am

Hellow skafather 84 , we all know you hate israel.
I will without much wearing further my keyboard announce that I will work to make your statements more true and for us to reap the results with those same side effects.
And also I hate the palestinians and all who support them now.

have a good day.



skafather84
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26 Sep 2009, 9:29 am

cc469 wrote:
Hellow skafather 84 , we all know you hate israel.
I will without much wearing further my keyboard announce that I will work to make your statements more true and for us to reap the results with those same side effects.
And also I hate the palestinians and all who support them now.

have a good day.



Make my statements more "true"? Ruveyn has been doing a good enough job. With how you've worded your statement, I've got a feeling you'll be doing nothing more than editing my posts to make them sound anti-Semitic building on the tired strawman that if you're politically against the state of Israel then you're against all of the Jewish people of the world.


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EC
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26 Sep 2009, 8:59 pm

There's nothing wrong with being against Zionism, it's a perfectly valid stance to take. The only time you have to call this out as a possible lie is when this is used by racists. For example: The racist scumbags who hide behind this position. They're called racists all the time, and what they'll try to do is to say "We don't hate Jews, we're just against Zionism" and then when people call them on their bullshit, they invoke the "you can't attack Israel without being called anti-Semitic" argument. They'll pull out all kinds of stuff to make it seem legitimate, like mentioning how Israel receives giant amounts of money from the U.S, which is also a valid point, however, unbeknownst to the poor people who buy into their lies, their real opinion is that Jews run the world. What better way to try to slowly get their poison injected into the debate than to piggy-back on current issues relating to the people they hate? This is EXACTLY what the fascist right-wing European parties are doing in regards to the debate on Islam.



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05 Oct 2009, 8:21 am

i will definately read through this thread, another day though! ha ha, i dont support amnihammajad whatever but i do support anti zionism, not anti semitism, there are some Jews in Israel who actually are against the war they are in, i heard it straight from one on a Docu i saw that was about the war they are in and the bad stuff that is happening

i applaud smart thinking like the Jews sticking together just like other races do, but i am more suss about them because seriously there are alot of powerfull Jews out there that are probably being supported financially by another Jew and any one of them could be a Zionist



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12 Oct 2009, 9:03 pm

anyways I have major Respect for Anti Zionist Jews, may your message be blessed as it is truthful and righteous!

you're brother may be delusional or maybe he believes in Jew Supremacy, well their is always going to be supremacists around, Zionism is as bad as Nazism, this is coming from a Hungarian/German man



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13 Oct 2009, 9:03 am

AngryJessman wrote:
anyways I have major Respect for Anti Zionist Jews, may your message be blessed as it is truthful and righteous!

you're brother may be delusional or maybe he believes in Jew Supremacy, well their is always going to be supremacists around, Zionism is as bad as Nazism, this is coming from a Hungarian/German man


As bad as Naziism. Then why is the Palestinian population increasing?

By the way, your use of "Jew" (a noun) as an adjective reveals that you are a fulminating anti-semite. That is how we spot your kind. The adjective is "Jewish" not "Jew:.

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skafather84
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13 Oct 2009, 11:29 am

ruveyn wrote:
By the way, your use of "Jew" (a noun) as an adjective reveals that you are a fulminating anti-semite. That is how we spot your kind. The adjective is "Jewish" not "Jew:.


You mean kinda like how I spotted you're a Jewish supremacist by your constant ranting about the superiority of Jews and how the "goys" mess things up?

I might be a goy, but I do know enough Yiddish to know "non-Jew" and realize that the implications are just as prejudiced as what you pointed out in the use of the noun "Jew".


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13 Oct 2009, 11:42 am

skafather84 wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
By the way, your use of "Jew" (a noun) as an adjective reveals that you are a fulminating anti-semite. That is how we spot your kind. The adjective is "Jewish" not "Jew:.


You mean kinda like how I spotted you're a Jewish supremacist by your constant ranting about the superiority of Jews and how the "goys" mess things up?

I might be a goy, but I do know enough Yiddish to know "non-Jew" and realize that the implications are just as prejudiced as what you pointed out in the use of the noun "Jew".


The Hebrew word "goy" (plural goyim) means nation (nations) and has exactly the same meaning as the Latin based word "gentile" (pl. gentiles).

In addition to being a fulminating anti-semite you are also ignorant of languages.

ruveyn