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skafather84
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07 Sep 2009, 4:36 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
even just have their wages matched by their skill levels?



How do you define the top-end of this?

The main thing I see is that the republican side tends to argue this kind of "keep what you earn" mentality that ends up being nothing more than a ploy to protect lavish incomes of works who aren't earning their wages but rather are simply taking more than they're actually worth to the companies in question and so therefore, encouraging much lower salaries for the low end along with other results such as inflation which pushes the wedge even harder between the levels of monetary compensation and its effects.

They're slaves because they essentially argue to keep themselves in the worst possible situation and never look to enforce the top end of "pulling your weight".

They fail to see just how little their arguments effect their lives for the positive. The belief of working for what you earn is by and far a positive ideal to hold but it's not a political argument and I don't think anyone would argue that people should be able to get money for free.


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iamnotaparakeet
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07 Sep 2009, 6:18 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
How about conservative Christians and republicans who are unemployed? Or work in junk jobs, like for Wal-Mart, or Burger King, or McDonald's? You limited it to a group which generally gets paid enough to live on, as if the ideology guaranteed people a certain income. I have worked only once in a warehouse, and the rest of the time in the service and food service industry, which is fairly close to slavery, if not just another form of serfdom. Living from paycheck to paycheck sucks, especially when you can be excommunicated on the whim of some higher up.


That really doesn't answer a lot, nor is it really in keeping with the original question - non-rich Americans who happen to be economically or politically conservative/Republican; they're slaves as compared to what exacly? Non-rich liberals and democrats are non-slaves? The poor are free non-slaves, non-serfs, under socialism or communism somehow? This is what I can't get my head around.


You're right, they aren't slaves. They aren't anyone's property, and can quit working anytime they feel like losing income and either being dependent or starving.



techstepgenr8tion
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07 Sep 2009, 6:31 pm

skafather84 wrote:
How do you define the top-end of this?

The main thing I see is that the republican side tends to argue this kind of "keep what you earn" mentality that ends up being nothing more than a ploy to protect lavish incomes of works who aren't earning their wages but rather are simply taking more than they're actually worth to the companies in question and so therefore, encouraging much lower salaries for the low end along with other results such as inflation which pushes the wedge even harder between the levels of monetary compensation and its effects.

They're slaves because they essentially argue to keep themselves in the worst possible situation and never look to enforce the top end of "pulling your weight".


So they should shoot for socialism and that would solve the problem?

skafather84 wrote:
They fail to see just how little their arguments effect their lives for the positive. The belief of working for what you earn is by and far a positive ideal to hold but it's not a political argument and I don't think anyone would argue that people should be able to get money for free.


The trouble is when you speak of those who leech off the top - don't they belong to every system thought of to man? To a poor conservative, do you think one of their tenets is "The managerial class is great and I love feeding my money to them and to speculators of the likes who crash Wall Street?". I just think that arguing these as core conservative values or desired effect is something of a misnomer.



techstepgenr8tion
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07 Sep 2009, 6:33 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
You're right, they aren't slaves. They aren't anyone's property, and can quit working anytime they feel like losing income and either being dependent or starving.


Which is true from what you're saying for only poor conservatives/republicans, not poor centrists/independents, poor liberals/democrates or poor socialists or leftists - got it.



skafather84
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07 Sep 2009, 7:08 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
How do you define the top-end of this?

The main thing I see is that the republican side tends to argue this kind of "keep what you earn" mentality that ends up being nothing more than a ploy to protect lavish incomes of works who aren't earning their wages but rather are simply taking more than they're actually worth to the companies in question and so therefore, encouraging much lower salaries for the low end along with other results such as inflation which pushes the wedge even harder between the levels of monetary compensation and its effects.

They're slaves because they essentially argue to keep themselves in the worst possible situation and never look to enforce the top end of "pulling your weight".


So they should shoot for socialism and that would solve the problem?


That's quite a large, clumsy jump in the thought process to make...I'm a little more nuanced than that. The first thing I know is that the tax brackets currently used do not nearly allow for a fair representation of where money is spread nor does it represent where the US sits as far as the value of the dollar and the cost of products out in the market right now. $250k+ isn't a fair representation of the kind of classes that are created above such a mark and does not clearly document how many people make, for example, $1mil+ in a year and therefore doesn't represent who should actually get the burden of taxes.


techstepgenr8tion wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
They fail to see just how little their arguments effect their lives for the positive. The belief of working for what you earn is by and far a positive ideal to hold but it's not a political argument and I don't think anyone would argue that people should be able to get money for free.


The trouble is when you speak of those who leech off the top - don't they belong to every system thought of to man? To a poor conservative, do you think one of their tenets is "The managerial class is great and I love feeding my money to them and to speculators of the likes who crash Wall Street?". I just think that arguing these as core conservative values or desired effect is something of a misnomer.


You're putting implications into my words beyond what I stated. I stated that the end result is their support of a system that doesn't have their interest in mind and, in fact, very actively plots against them. I'm not stating any kind of verbatim of what people are thinking...because to be honest, I don't think they are. At least not deep enough to realize the implications of their beliefs and where it hurts them. Yes, I implied that the current popular conservative thought simply feeds the rich but I'm not saying that every conservative thinks that. Like I've said elsewhere on the board before: are you really a slave if you don't even realize it? Right now I'm saying "technically, yes." You're ignoring that and instead stating that I'm assuming that people are thinking in an absurdly basic manner with a conclusion that takes much more research and reading than most people ever put into anything in their lives.

You're saying they're not slaves because they don't see it that way and, therefore, do not see the shackles that they, themselves, promote into their daily lives. I'm saying they are.....though I'm not quite sure of any conclusion beyond my own position and since I don't have a lot of money at the moment, I'm not exactly a fan of being on the bad end of this game. Especially when I see it for what it is.

I think most people hold their beliefs out of ignorance and environment. Most people don't care to be active in knowing what goes on and understanding the process. I don't think they actively believe that they're working against themselves in any kind of way.


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techstepgenr8tion
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07 Sep 2009, 7:30 pm

skafather84 wrote:
That's quite a large, clumsy jump in the thought process to make...I'm a little more nuanced than that.


Not that I believed you weren't - I just wanted more of a direct answer.

skafather84 wrote:
The first thing I know is that the tax brackets currently used do not nearly allow for a fair representation of where money is spread nor does it represent where the US sits as far as the value of the dollar and the cost of products out in the market right now. $250k+ isn't a fair representation of the kind of classes that are created above such a mark and does not clearly document how many people make, for example, $1mil+ in a year and therefore doesn't represent who should actually get the burden of taxes.


I think more lower and middle class conservatives would agree with you there than lower and middle class liberals. Most 'small' conservatives want more support for small business - not so much big business. The packaged deal they usually get from the Republican party is all that and up. Its not to say that most conservatives even like the Republican party all that much, but I don't get how believing in small business and generally Rush Limbaugh's principles - what he says, not what he 'supposedly' does or 'really' means according to so many left of center.


skafather84 wrote:
You're putting implications into my words beyond what I stated. I stated that the end result is their support of a system that doesn't have their interest in mind and, in fact, very actively plots against them. I'm not stating any kind of verbatim of what people are thinking...because to be honest, I don't think they are. At least not deep enough to realize the implications of their beliefs and where it hurts them. Yes, I implied that the current popular conservative thought simply feeds the rich but I'm not saying that every conservative thinks that. Like I've said elsewhere on the board before: are you really a slave if you don't even realize it? Right now I'm saying "technically, yes." You're ignoring that and instead stating that I'm assuming that people are thinking in an absurdly basic manner with a conclusion that takes much more research and reading than most people ever put into anything in their lives.

You're saying they're not slaves because they don't see it that way and, therefore, do not see the shackles that they, themselves, promote into their daily lives. I'm saying they are.....though I'm not quite sure of any conclusion beyond my own position and since I don't have a lot of money at the moment, I'm not exactly a fan of being on the bad end of this game. Especially when I see it for what it is.

I think most people hold their beliefs out of ignorance and environment. Most people don't care to be active in knowing what goes on and understanding the process. I don't think they actively believe that they're working against themselves in any kind of way.


Right - so your not saying they're stupid......but......they are. This sounds a lot like the argument that comes out of some atheists to the effect of "ALL believers in any God are children cowering under their mother's skirts in fear of death - they just have too small of minds to accept the possibility of not existing after death so, they cling to their God - because they're weak, unlike myself".

Your certain that they only believe what they do because they don't think?



skafather84
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07 Sep 2009, 7:44 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Right - so your not saying they're stupid......but......they are.


Not really. Most people are too concerned with the 3 essentials to waste any time informing themselves: intoxication, sexual gratification, entertainment.

And then beyond that, you get everyone who simply looks for the most convenient philosophies available. If you're poor and not getting laid, what better way to get the ladies than to be sporting a piece of Che paraphernalia and be spouting the kind of liberal ideals that show that you "know what's going on in the world". Which isn't to say that everyone considers it in such a contrived manner but that's a very base example of how things end up working. Emphasis on "very base".

When work takes up all your time and you can't be "goofing around" in your free time at work (even if it's bettering yourself intellectually) and the remaining four or so hours in your day are taken up by eating, attempts at sex, and watching TV (god bless you, Tivo).

It's more that most people choose not to take the opportunity to properly inform themselves....it takes up too much time and is too large of investment wrought with being wrong too many times for most to put up with.

So yeah...they're stupid...but they're not. More like: most possibly can...but don't ever apply themselves.


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techstepgenr8tion
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07 Sep 2009, 8:17 pm

While a lot of people are in fact very busy on all sides - it still completely misses conservative core values to say its all about giving everything upward or to say the ideals necessarily lead there. You've probably heard the expression 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater'? That's essentially what's wrong with the assumption that conservatives have it all wrong and, if they actually paid attention and were intelligent they'd be liberals. Just like socialists could complain up and down that its a misapplication of their beliefs that leads to systems where the medical system crashes and the economy in net just makes all poorer - the same could be said for conservatives, who believe that they're values work but would easily admit that there are holes that need to be patched and the country's leadership definitely isn't doing a hot job, in any which direction. You still need to be able to pick the good points out from the crap and many who would consider themselves conservatives do in fact and want reform badly.



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07 Sep 2009, 8:27 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
While a lot of people are in fact very busy on all sides - it still completely misses conservative core values to say its all about giving everything upward or to say the ideals necessarily lead there. You've probably heard the expression 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater'? That's essentially what's wrong with the assumption that conservatives have it all wrong and, if they actually paid attention and were intelligent they'd be liberals. Just like socialists could complain up and down that its a misapplication of their beliefs that leads to systems where the medical system crashes and the economy in net just makes all poorer - the same could be said for conservatives, who believe that they're values work but would easily admit that there are holes that need to be patched and the country's leadership definitely isn't doing a hot job, in any which direction. You still need to be able to pick the good points out from the crap and many who would consider themselves conservatives do in fact and want reform badly.


And considering the Obama policies of dumping money to those who caused the problems and not to those who are suffering, they should be happy since they're getting reform badly.



techstepgenr8tion
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07 Sep 2009, 8:34 pm

Sand wrote:
And considering the Obama policies of dumping money to those who caused the problems and not to those who are suffering, they should be happy since they're getting reform badly.


Like putting Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, and Charles Wrangle in charge of fixing the Fannie Mae Freddy Mac problem? Exactly. (also yes - I got your pun)



skafather84
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07 Sep 2009, 8:43 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
While a lot of people are in fact very busy on all sides - it still completely misses conservative core values to say its all about giving everything upward or to say the ideals necessarily lead there. You've probably heard the expression 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater'? That's essentially what's wrong with the assumption that conservatives have it all wrong and, if they actually paid attention and were intelligent they'd be liberals. Just like socialists could complain up and down that its a misapplication of their beliefs that leads to systems where the medical system crashes and the economy in net just makes all poorer - the same could be said for conservatives, who believe that they're values work but would easily admit that there are holes that need to be patched and the country's leadership definitely isn't doing a hot job, in any which direction. You still need to be able to pick the good points out from the crap and many who would consider themselves conservatives do in fact and want reform badly.


Even you yourself said that more conservatives would agree with me than liberals on the point I made about taxes. I don't really consider myself liberal or conservative because there's too many points that I'm on each side (and you can probably find me declaring being on either side at one point or another). I'm not throwing out conservative ideology entirely but rather I'm questioning the aspects that leads to the poor conditions that I see around me and see in my home city.

Honestly, I don't consider myself liberal or conservative. I find myself being anti-conservative or anti-liberal as I encounter what's wrong with each. Being back in New Orleans and back in this racist, conservative environment, I'm reminded of the evils within conservatism. In Los Angeles, I was reminded of the evils of liberal spending and socialist programs and bureaucracy that clogs any kind of necessary progress to the point where California is almost a pure democracy and has all the problems one would expect from a pure democracy: they can't spend money responsibly and they can't raise money responsibly. It has nothing to do with parties...the first four years of Bush 1.3 demonstrated that with Republicans controlling everything, there was as much lavish spending of money as any liberal could achieve.

It does, however, have everything to do with one's familiarity of the systems being employed and the ideals being put forward. The core of our government for the last 40 or so years has been that of corporatism and supporting private business through public money.


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skafather84
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07 Sep 2009, 8:47 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Like putting Barney Frank,



Not familiar with Wrangle and ABSOLUTELY NOT a fan of Dodd...but Barney Frank seems fairly intelligent. Plain spoken, but fairly intelligent. I don't see what's wrong with him...other than that he's rude to a slew of conservatives who keep on spewing the same lies at him in regards to the healthcare reform and he's gotten sick of it and is simply fighting back.


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07 Sep 2009, 10:14 pm

St. Louis, Missouri, is more a Midwestern city, but racism is alive and well here (I'd say it's a little bit of mutual assumption and hostility among both blacks and whites).